Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

If you think that's what all cable manufacturers do, then the most effective way of discriminating what's good and what isn't -  is a big enough sand pit.  See who can bury their head deepest.  

It's what Chord do, it's what Atlas do, it also appears to be what TQ do (but I haven't completed my research here); Audioquest and QED buy/commission somewhat customised connectors as well.  Some of the minor players such as Kimber Kables and DNM 'plough their own furrow' with cable design (although they both use completely standard connectors).

I haven't studied all the others in depth (I'd be very surprised if many of them are that much different than the market leaders!)

Naim are unusual in that they designed their own DIN connectors and use highly customised cable.

Huge posted:

 

That's exactly the same as I do (without the cable customisation such as the 'bling' on the outer jacket)!   True I don't have the marketing and distribution / sales costs, but my cables cost less than 5% of the cost of equivalent commercial products.

Even allowing for assembly, test and R&D costs being equal to materials cost that means a 10x mark-up in the last two cost items.

90% of the price of cables is the profit and the distribution chain.    I rest my case.

One reason I’m asking my wife for a stocking stuffer of a soldering kit this year. DIY is in our family’s genes and I figured its about time to tackle my own cables, etc. Will practice on scrap first of course! 

That said there are some cables best left to the pros. I just received an ethernet cable from Ghent Audio with Metz connectors (one 45 angle) and the JSSG (John Swenson ground shield - essentially a separate ground that connects the shield only). The cable is a freaking anaconda, but sounds amazing. Broke the bank at $80, but that’s a lot more palatable than a Vertere for $1k plus. I just couldn’t see myself soldering something like this, or the star quad into Oyaide dc connectors I also got from Ghent for my Uptone LPS to micrRendu. All the cables from Ghent I’ve gotten have been top notch and inexpensive. 

Cables won’t make your amp bigger or speakers better. But they might, esp at the source end, help reveal more info and bring the electrical noise down which can Lead to your amp, DAC, etc sounding its best. What you want to spend on cables though is ultimately between you, god, and your wallet! $100 is my cap, though my 3.5m pair of NACA5 came in at $125 (used) and my Witchhat DIN4 about the same. I use AV Options Tibia Plusses (custom at 3 feet each) on my Naim gear. 

Max_B posted:

Sometimes (In reply to the original question). But why the firing squad is always ready for the costly cables, and never for the super costly PSUs? If we reason in terms of £ per LPR (listening pleasure return), and consider stuff, handwork, etc., are we sure that SuperLumina are more 'expensive' than a 555PS? 

I think one reason is that passive components, like cables, probably cannot improve the signal to noise ratio (IMO this would not be possible because they are supposed to work as linearly as possible, I may be wrong here), while active components can. And I assume DR PSU technology from Naim or Dynamik PSU Technology from Linn do exactly that, lowering the noise floor and improving the SNR. So I'm willing to pay more for active components than passive ones.

I think a good cable can help lower the noise floor by rejecting EMI/RF and high impedance ground noise, like the JSSG ethernet or USB design. But definitely not to the degree a good box can. 

jfritzen posted:

Max_B posted:

Sometimes (In reply to the original question). But why the firing squad is always ready for the costly cables, and never for the super costly PSUs? If we reason in terms of £ per LPR (listening pleasure return), and consider stuff, handwork, etc., are we sure that SuperLumina are more 'expensive' than a 555PS? 

I think one reason is that passive components, like cables, probably cannot improve the signal to noise ratio (IMO this would not be possible because they are supposed to work as linearly as possible, I may be wrong here), while active components can. And I assume DR PSU technology from Naim or Dynamik PSU Technology from Linn do exactly that, lowering the noise floor and improving the SNR. So I'm willing to pay more for active components than passive ones.

Sort of...

Passive components can only subtract from the signal (but filtering out HF noise would increase the SN ratio), but should subtract as little as possible as anything lost is a loss of information.

Improving PSUs can add less noise into an active component; but can also allow the active components to function better so reducing the extent to which they modify the signal in unwanted ways (this also includes reduction of distortions such as TIMD that aren't related to linearity).

charlesphoto posted:

I think a good cable can help lower the noise floor by rejecting EMI/RF and high impedance ground noise, like the JSSG ethernet or USB design. But definitely not to the degree a good box can. 

So can clip on ferrites, and they're much cheaper!

I understand Huges point that a lot of cable manufacturers just get their bits from else where, put them together and decide what to charge, but doesn’t everyone? I’ve not had the pleasure of a naim factory tour, but I highly doubt I’d see someone casting casings or winding toroidal transformers or even assembling capacitors. Or would I? 

charlesphoto posted:

I think a good cable can help lower the noise floor by rejecting EMI/RF and high impedance ground noise, like the JSSG ethernet or USB design. But definitely not to the degree a good box can. 

I agree.

Huge posted:

charlesphoto posted:

I think a good cable can help lower the noise floor by rejecting EMI/RF and high impedance ground noise, like the JSSG ethernet or USB design. But definitely not to the degree a good box can. 

So can clip on ferrites, and they're much cheaper!

Yep. I have a few here and there, but not such a dramatic change as when instituting grounding measures, such as the ground shunt trick with dc cables into switches etc or the JSSG grounded cables. I also hesitate to add ferrites to the tibia’s. 

Finkfan posted:

I understand Huges point that a lot of cable manufacturers just get their bits from else where, put them together and decide what to charge, but doesn’t everyone? I’ve not had the pleasure of a naim factory tour, but I highly doubt I’d see someone casting casings or winding toroidal transformers or even assembling capacitors. Or would I? 

I don’t think anyone’s faulting the manufacturers for their business model/practice. It’s just a matter if you want/need/can afford to pay their prices. Some will, some won’t. As a photographer, I don’t make my own film/sensors/paper/printers/etc but I still get to charge $ for a print once it’s made with those items. The worth of that is up to the client. They could certainly choose or make cheaper art for their walls, but then they wouldn’t have the specific image of mine they really like. 

charlesphoto posted:

Huge posted:

 

That's exactly the same as I do (without the cable customisation such as the 'bling' on the outer jacket)!   True I don't have the marketing and distribution / sales costs, but my cables cost less than 5% of the cost of equivalent commercial products.

Even allowing for assembly, test and R&D costs being equal to materials cost that means a 10x mark-up in the last two cost items.

90% of the price of cables is the profit and the distribution chain.    I rest my case.

One reason I’m asking my wife for a stocking stuffer of a soldering kit this year. DIY is in our family’s genes and I figured its about time to tackle my own cables, etc. Will practice on scrap first of course! 

. 

One great thing with DIY cables is that it doesn’t cost a lot to experiment and try multiple options - e.g as long as you solder carefully it is possible to re-use connectors and/or cables. And of course cable length is readily customisable, in any size steps. And it doesnt have to look  valuable - though if desired there are a myriad of sleeve designs you can buy to customisecthe external appearance, or code them for different purposes etc.

Naims own Powerline lite, looks very similar to the lead for my kettle.....so I would agree some cables are not worth the money...

wenger2015 posted:

Naims own Powerline lite, looks very similar to the lead for my kettle.....so I would agree some cables are not worth the money...

It does. Its mains plug doesn't though. 

Innocent Bystander posted: 

One great thing with DIY cables is    ................    cable length is readily customisable.

100% 

Huge posted:

Hmm... let me think what the cable manufactures do...

They do some R&D.
They specify a customised reel of cable from a wire & cable manufacturer (specifying grade of wire, lay and insulation - or just use a standard type with customised lettering on the jacket!).
They buy connectors from a connector supplier (even Chord signature Reference and and Sarum T use Prehkeytek and Rean DINs respectively and both use standard Neutrik XLRs), but often these are unmarked 'OEM' versions.
They assemble the cables
They test the cables (maybe 15 seconds each!)

That's exactly the same as I do (without the cable customisation such as the 'bling' on the outer jacket)!   True I don't have the marketing and distribution / sales costs, but my cables cost less than 5% of the cost of equivalent commercial products.

Even allowing for assembly, test and R&D costs being equal to materials cost that means a 10x mark-up in the last two cost items.

90% of the price of cables is the profit and the distribution chain.    I rest my case.

Well well Huge, I didn't realise you were quite so gifted and so profoundly knowledgeable about the entire cable manufacturing industry and its costing and pricing strategy.  Given how simple it all is, and your abundant skills, perhaps you could make me up some ChordMusic cables, I'd happily chuck in a tenner...

wenger2015 posted:

Naims own Powerline lite, looks very similar to the lead for my kettle.....so I would agree some cables are not worth the money...

Don’t tell the kettle manufacturer!

wenger2015 posted:

Naims own Powerline lite, looks very similar to the lead for my kettle.....so I would agree some cables are not worth the money...

But it’s what inside......

The Strat (Fender) posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Naims own Powerline lite, looks very similar to the lead for my kettle.....so I would agree some cables are not worth the money...

But it’s what inside......

Looks can be decieving....

It’s a standard lead but with a fancy decoupled plug. That’s what makes the difference. 

wenger2015 posted:

Naims own Powerline lite, looks very similar to the lead for my kettle.....so I would agree some cables are not worth the money...

To be fair the Tea, definitely tastes much better compared to the standard kettle lead..

wenger2015 posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Naims own Powerline lite, looks very similar to the lead for my kettle.....so I would agree some cables are not worth the money...

To be fair the Tea, definitely tastes much better compared to the standard kettle lead..

It boils faster and on time...

Dave J posted:

Huge posted:

Hmm... let me think what the cable manufactures do...

They do some R&D.
They specify a customised reel of cable from a wire & cable manufacturer (specifying grade of wire, lay and insulation - or just use a standard type with customised lettering on the jacket!).
They buy connectors from a connector supplier (even Chord signature Reference and and Sarum T use Prehkeytek and Rean DINs respectively and both use standard Neutrik XLRs), but often these are unmarked 'OEM' versions.
They assemble the cables
They test the cables (maybe 15 seconds each!)

That's exactly the same as I do (without the cable customisation such as the 'bling' on the outer jacket)!   True I don't have the marketing and distribution / sales costs, but my cables cost less than 5% of the cost of equivalent commercial products.

Even allowing for assembly, test and R&D costs being equal to materials cost that means a 10x mark-up in the last two cost items.

90% of the price of cables is the profit and the distribution chain.    I rest my case.

Well well Huge, I didn't realise you were quite so gifted and so profoundly knowledgeable about the entire cable manufacturing industry and its costing and pricing strategy.  Given how simple it all is, and your abundant skills, perhaps you could make me up some ChordMusic cables, I'd happily chuck in a tenner...

Indeed, I used to work for a company that made electronic equipment, including making their own specialist cables (and yes they were made from parts sourced from specialist suppliers - given the costs involved it would have been stupid to have done anything else).

Now, where above did I mention Chord Music?

Err...    Still looking....

No can't find it.  Sorry you're out of luck.

Also, as Chord Music is priced at £3500 and my costs are typically 5% of commercial price, then by offering £10 you're obviously trying to rip me off! 

P.S. Chord Music uses a type of Rean DIN plug that I can source for £0.99 each, and they use this cheap plug to make a £3,500 cable!
Both I (and another member here) use the same plugs for DIN5 180° terminations, however neither of us has claimed that our cables match Chord Music.

Fill a bath with water boiled from a kettle with an expensive cable, and fill a bath with water from a standard cable. Sit in said bath and note the cremaster muscle contractions. Which has most movement wins.

A test only available to about 50% of the population.

How should the other 50% test their kettle leads - being typically more sensible by using a thermometer or a HiFi system perhaps?