Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

An account for pertinence of nipplages with said experiment for the other "half" ?

Touché! 

If very expensive cables are only bought by the very stupid/naive, then surely the market wouldn't be sufficient to make a profit for these rip-off manufacturers.

Please give some credit to those that have spent on expensive cables. Some actually have the sense to carryout home demos and make sensible judgements as to the VFM these ridiculously overpriced bits of wire offer.

Dives for cover. 

nigelb posted:

If very expensive cables are only bought by the very stupid/naive, then surely the market wouldn't be sufficient to make a profit for these rip-off manufacturers.

Please give some credit to those that have spent on expensive cables. Some actually have the sense to carryout home demos and make sensible judgements as to the VFM these ridiculously overpriced bits of wire offer.

Dives for cover. 

I think your spot on Nigelb. Maybe it’s all about affordability....

nigelb posted:

If very expensive cables are only bought by the very stupid/naive, then surely the market wouldn't be sufficient to make a profit for these rip-off manufacturers.

Please give some credit to those that have spent on expensive cables. Some actually have the sense to carryout home demos and make sensible judgements as to the VFM these ridiculously overpriced bits of wire offer.

Dives for cover. 

No need for cover, you're absolutely right, they make a considerable difference.

It's just that the prices for most of the products from mainstream cable manufacturers are considerably inflated.  If you can't make your own cables then you have no obvious viable option other than to pay these prices.

Huge posted:

nigelb posted:

If very expensive cables are only bought by the very stupid/naive, then surely the market wouldn't be sufficient to make a profit for these rip-off manufacturers.

Please give some credit to those that have spent on expensive cables. Some actually have the sense to carryout home demos and make sensible judgements as to the VFM these ridiculously overpriced bits of wire offer.

Dives for cover. 

No need for cover, you're absolutely right, they make a considerable difference.

It's just that the prices for most of the products form mainstream cable manufacturers are considerably inflated.  If you can't make your own cables then you have no obviously viable option other than to pay these prices.

I tend to agree and wish I had the skill to make my own cables. Such skill would also need to be augmented by detailed knowledge of cables and their interaction with components they connect and their surrounding operating environment. I think you will agree it is not just about being able to use a soldering iron.

Yes, I suspect some cables are sold at inflated prices. The likes of Naim do spend considerable sums on R&D which includes extensive listening tests and much trial and error. These costs have to be recouped and of course do not manifest themselves in the look and feel of the final product - i.e. they are above and beyond the 'material value' of the cable in question. I have also seen SL cables being assembled in Salisbury which goes some way to justify the cost in my mind.

Surely competitive forces do play some part in the world of posh cables. Certainly those customers that bother to audition them properly are far less likely to line the pockets of the manufacturers that are 'trying it on'.

wenger2015 posted:

nigelb posted:

If very expensive cables are only bought by the very stupid/naive, then surely the market wouldn't be sufficient to make a profit for these rip-off manufacturers.

Please give some credit to those that have spent on expensive cables. Some actually have the sense to carryout home demos and make sensible judgements as to the VFM these ridiculously overpriced bits of wire offer.

Dives for cover. 

I think your spot on Nigelb. Maybe it’s all about affordability....

...or discernment. There are none so deaf as those that won't hear 

MDS posted:

wenger2015 posted:

nigelb posted:

If very expensive cables are only bought by the very stupid/naive, then surely the market wouldn't be sufficient to make a profit for these rip-off manufacturers.

Please give some credit to those that have spent on expensive cables. Some actually have the sense to carryout home demos and make sensible judgements as to the VFM these ridiculously overpriced bits of wire offer.

Dives for cover. 

I think your spot on Nigelb. Maybe it’s all about affordability....

...or discernment. There are none so deaf as those that won't hear 

Very profound....

nigelb posted:

Huge posted:

nigelb posted:

If very expensive cables are only bought by the very stupid/naive, then surely the market wouldn't be sufficient to make a profit for these rip-off manufacturers.

Please give some credit to those that have spent on expensive cables. Some actually have the sense to carryout home demos and make sensible judgements as to the VFM these ridiculously overpriced bits of wire offer.

Dives for cover. 

No need for cover, you're absolutely right, they make a considerable difference.

It's just that the prices for most of the products form mainstream cable manufacturers are considerably inflated.  If you can't make your own cables then you have no obviously viable option other than to pay these prices.

I tend to agree and wish I had the skill to make my own cables. Such skill would also need to be augmented by detailed knowledge of cables and their interaction with components they connect and their surrounding operating environment. I think you will agree it is not just about being able to use a soldering iron.

Yes, I suspect some cables are sold at inflated prices. The likes of Naim do spend considerable sums on R&D which includes extensive listening tests and much trial and error. These costs have to be recouped and of course do not manifest themselves in the look and feel of the final product - i.e. they are above and beyond the 'material value' of the cable in question. I have also seen SL cables being assembled in Salisbury which goes some way to justify the cost in my mind.

Surely competitive forces do play some part in the world of posh cables. Certainly those customers that bother to audition them properly are far less likely to line the pockets of the manufacturers that are 'trying it on'.

+1

You may have noticed much further up where I observed that Naim design their own cable connectors (at least for their high end cables) and get specially commissioned cable designs (these are specifically developed with considerable time spent in listening tests to ensure they fit into the Naim 'ecosystem').

That's why I excluded them from the suggestion of excessive price amplification.  In principle would also include some of the other minority cable manufacturers (e.g. Ari Rabinovich and DNM) from the general observation.

You're also right that I do have to do a fair amount of research and then some experimentation to determine the appropriate connectors, cables and wiring configuration to use for each application.

Huge posted:

So can clip on ferrites, and they're much cheaper!

Huge, for "standard" mains cable, 5 or 7 mm inner diameter?

wenger2015 posted:

nigelb posted:

If very expensive cables are only bought by the very stupid/naive, then surely the market wouldn't be sufficient to make a profit for these rip-off manufacturers.

Please give some credit to those that have spent on expensive cables. Some actually have the sense to carryout home demos and make sensible judgements as to the VFM these ridiculously overpriced bits of wire offer.

Dives for cover. 

I think your spot on Nigelb. Maybe it’s all about affordability....

I'm sure that could be the case - it can be an expensive pursuit. For me, using Chord Music speaker cables as an example the price would be £5400. I could happily spend that much on a box upgrade. With cables, however good they sounded, i just couldn't bring myself to spend that much. I suppose we all have different perceptions of value and that influences our buying decisions to some extent. 

M37,  the Naim PowerLine 'Lite' cable is 6.8mm & I believe the cable brand/size is unchanged from the previously supplied standard power cable included with Naim boxes.    So 7m is the one you need. 

I use a TDK ferrite with a max of 9mm for my cables of that aprx size,  the TDK clamps have small grippers in the plastic clamp cover that grips cables from around 6.5 to 9mm.  A few wraps of insulating tape or a small cable tie fixes smaller cables.  

M37 posted:

Huge, for "standard" mains cable, 5 or 7 mm inner diameter?

I use 7mm Würt Elektronik GP ferrites (better lower RF performance than TDK ZCAT versions, same performance at UHF).

james n posted:

I'm sure that could be the case - it can be an expensive pursuit. For me, using Chord Music speaker cables as an example the price would be £5400. I could happily spend that much on a box upgrade. With cables, however good they sounded, i just couldn't bring myself to spend that much. I suppose we all have different perceptions of value and that influences our buying decisions to some extent. 

I'm with you on this James. For me to equip my system with Chord Music speaker cable would cost £86K, SL £17.5K. Does my system sound fine at the moment? Sure does! Will it sound better with these cables? 'Spect it will. But at that sort of dosh I'd be putting the money on something else - it goes against the grain to pay that for cables, no matter how good they may be. Having owned a specialist manufacturing business I do acknowledge that costs of designing, producing, and selling consumes more money than most folks realise of course, but I do wonder how much more cable Chord and Naim would sell if they reduced the prices and weren't quite so greedy. 

Thank you Mike-B and Huge. Do you use more than one ferrite per cable and have you tried to attach them to different places along the cable?

tonym posted:

james n posted:

I'm sure that could be the case - it can be an expensive pursuit. For me, using Chord Music speaker cables as an example the price would be £5400. I could happily spend that much on a box upgrade. With cables, however good they sounded, i just couldn't bring myself to spend that much. I suppose we all have different perceptions of value and that influences our buying decisions to some extent. 

I'm with you on this James. For me to equip my system with Chord Music speaker cable would cost £86K, SL £17.5K. Does my system sound fine at the moment? Sure does! Will it sound better with these cables? 'Spect it will. But at that sort of dosh I'd be putting the money on something else - it goes against the grain to pay that for cables, no matter how good they may be. Having owned a specialist manufacturing business I do acknowledge that costs of designing, producing, and selling consumes more money than most folks realise of course, but I do wonder how much more cable Chord and Naim would sell if they reduced the prices and weren't quite so greedy. 

They may sell fewer, as the products would no longer be aspirational. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

tonym posted:

james n posted:

I'm sure that could be the case - it can be an expensive pursuit. For me, using Chord Music speaker cables as an example the price would be £5400. I could happily spend that much on a box upgrade. With cables, however good they sounded, i just couldn't bring myself to spend that much. I suppose we all have different perceptions of value and that influences our buying decisions to some extent. 

I'm with you on this James. For me to equip my system with Chord Music speaker cable would cost £86K, SL £17.5K. Does my system sound fine at the moment? Sure does! Will it sound better with these cables? 'Spect it will. But at that sort of dosh I'd be putting the money on something else - it goes against the grain to pay that for cables, no matter how good they may be. Having owned a specialist manufacturing business I do acknowledge that costs of designing, producing, and selling consumes more money than most folks realise of course, but I do wonder how much more cable Chord and Naim would sell if they reduced the prices and weren't quite so greedy. 

They may sell fewer, as the products would no longer be aspirational. 

Yep, I totally agree with all these completely rational viewpoints!

Hi again M37,   Huge & I could go onanonanon about ferrite.    As a rule one per cable is enough,  but it depends on what you are actually doing.   I'm most concerned about containing SMPS noise & spurious phone line noise & keeping it out of my LAN (ethernet)  So whilst I generally have one ferrite per cable, I have them on both 230v & DC sides of SMPS,  plus phone & broadband lines & on ethernet.  

Re Huge's line on choice of ferrite material;  my choice is not for TDK as such,  its just that they use an MnZn ferrite mix classified as N30,  this has a very wide usable impedance band & is my choice for what I'm doing with the SMPS noise.   That said I do use another make with another mix on the power cables at the wall socket.

Hungryhalibut posted:

tonym posted:

james n posted:

I'm sure that could be the case - it can be an expensive pursuit. For me, using Chord Music speaker cables as an example the price would be £5400. I could happily spend that much on a box upgrade. With cables, however good they sounded, i just couldn't bring myself to spend that much. I suppose we all have different perceptions of value and that influences our buying decisions to some extent. 

I'm with you on this James. For me to equip my system with Chord Music speaker cable would cost £86K, SL £17.5K. Does my system sound fine at the moment? Sure does! Will it sound better with these cables? 'Spect it will. But at that sort of dosh I'd be putting the money on something else - it goes against the grain to pay that for cables, no matter how good they may be. Having owned a specialist manufacturing business I do acknowledge that costs of designing, producing, and selling consumes more money than most folks realise of course, but I do wonder how much more cable Chord and Naim would sell if they reduced the prices and weren't quite so greedy. 

They may sell fewer, as the products would no longer be aspirational. 

I'd assume Naim have done their market research here, but for those of us who choose not to be that aspirational, it's a bit of a pity really. Good luck to Naim, they're clearly on a different road than previously, but not one I'll be following.

Nac A6 coming? Price 50% higher than Nac A5 and a noticable 10% improvement?

tonym posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

tonym posted:

james n posted:

I'm sure that could be the case - it can be an expensive pursuit. For me, using Chord Music speaker cables as an example the price would be £5400. I could happily spend that much on a box upgrade. With cables, however good they sounded, i just couldn't bring myself to spend that much. I suppose we all have different perceptions of value and that influences our buying decisions to some extent. 

I'm with you on this James. For me to equip my system with Chord Music speaker cable would cost £86K, SL £17.5K. Does my system sound fine at the moment? Sure does! Will it sound better with these cables? 'Spect it will. But at that sort of dosh I'd be putting the money on something else - it goes against the grain to pay that for cables, no matter how good they may be. Having owned a specialist manufacturing business I do acknowledge that costs of designing, producing, and selling consumes more money than most folks realise of course, but I do wonder how much more cable Chord and Naim would sell if they reduced the prices and weren't quite so greedy. 

They may sell fewer, as the products would no longer be aspirational. 

I'd assume Naim have done their market research here, but for those of us who choose not to be that aspirational, it's a bit of a pity really. Good luck to Naim, they're clearly on a different road than previously, but not one I'll be following.

Thanks Tony,

I was just re-reading this thread and was thinking what you just posted with regard to SL pricing.I often wonder if SL was priced at a more realistic £500 a pair would they shift as many units - even more ? ...I think it would be a great thankyou to loyal Naim buyers.  Can't stand this conditioning where its aspirational as it costs so much more and the price has to reflect Statement pricing.Not Knocking SL as have had dems of it and thought it sounded great.Can't see any one here with a full SL loom appreciating this as they would have dropped a huge amount of dosh.

Why is that Super Lumina cables does not come as standard cabling with all Naim equipment?. If those cables make a significant improvement wouldn't that help Naim selling to more customers or would that put Naim into bankruptcy?

If one day I win the lottery I may do some auditioning of esoteric cables, but meanwhile I’m in the camp not paying more than £100 for a cable. If I had a few £thousand to spend on the system there are other things I’d do that I believe would have more impact before considering expensive cables .

cat345 posted:

Why is that Super Lumina cables does not come as standard cabling with all Naim equipment?. If those cables make a significant improvement wouldn't that help Naim selling to more customers or would that put Naim into bankruptcy?

The SL cables are one of the few esoteric cables (there are some others as well) where there IS significant manufacturing cost involved.  This is because Naim do have exclusive in-house designed specialist components made for the SL cables, and, unlike the generic connector types used by most other high-end cable manufacturers, these parts aren't cheap.

I don't know the precise details of the costs involved, but I do suspect that Naim's costs here wouldn't make this a viable option.

Huge posted:

cat345 posted:

Why is that Super Lumina cables does not come as standard cabling with all Naim equipment?. If those cables make a significant improvement wouldn't that help Naim selling to more customers or would that put Naim into bankruptcy?

The SL cables are one of the few esoteric cables (there are some others as well) where there IS significant manufacturing cost involved.  This is because Naim do have exclusive in-house designed specialist components made for the SL cables, and, unlike the generic connector types used by most other high-end cable manufacturers, these parts aren't cheap.

I don't know the precise details of the costs involved, but I do suspect that Naim's costs here wouldn't make this a viable option.

I understand about the manufacturing cost but I see the cabling as a part of the whole amplification process so I prefer to see Naim as an amplifier company as always instead of a new cabling company.