Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

Huge posted:

cat345 posted:

Why is that Super Lumina cables does not come as standard cabling with all Naim equipment?. If those cables make a significant improvement wouldn't that help Naim selling to more customers or would that put Naim into bankruptcy?

The SL cables are one of the few esoteric cables (there are some others as well) where there IS significant manufacturing cost involved.  This is because Naim do have exclusive in-house designed specialist components made for the SL cables, and, unlike the generic connector types used by most other high-end cable manufacturers, these parts aren't cheap.

I don't know the precise details of the costs involved, but I do suspect that Naim's costs here wouldn't make this a viable option.

Hmmm. That I really doubt. It's hard not to conclude that the gross margin on the cable is very high - in principle they could still be sold a lot cheaper while still handsomely covering mf costs. However the debate is GM x volume at a particular price point. I personally think SL is priced relative to the price of statement and 500 series products - to make up a  "defendable" % of the price of a top Naim system rather than based on mf costs or development costs or indeed some attempt at an assessment of the quantum of the improvement they offer.

I'm quite sure Naim won't be telling us though!

tonym posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

tonym posted:

james n posted:

I'm sure that could be the case - it can be an expensive pursuit. For me, using Chord Music speaker cables as an example the price would be £5400. I could happily spend that much on a box upgrade. With cables, however good they sounded, i just couldn't bring myself to spend that much. I suppose we all have different perceptions of value and that influences our buying decisions to some extent. 

I'm with you on this James. For me to equip my system with Chord Music speaker cable would cost £86K, SL £17.5K. Does my system sound fine at the moment? Sure does! Will it sound better with these cables? 'Spect it will. But at that sort of dosh I'd be putting the money on something else - it goes against the grain to pay that for cables, no matter how good they may be. Having owned a specialist manufacturing business I do acknowledge that costs of designing, producing, and selling consumes more money than most folks realise of course, but I do wonder how much more cable Chord and Naim would sell if they reduced the prices and weren't quite so greedy. 

They may sell fewer, as the products would no longer be aspirational. 

I'd assume Naim have done their market research here, but for those of us who choose not to be that aspirational, it's a bit of a pity really. Good luck to Naim, they're clearly on a different road than previously, but not one I'll be following.

If a top of the range 500 active system is not aspirational than I don't know what is!

Those with a DBL active system will see almost a tripling of the cost of a full SL loom compared to those with a passive system. I can see that would be a show-stopper.

If you buy more expensive 'top of the range' equipment then to get the best out of it you do need the 'better' cables. What is 'better' in this context is obviously up for debate, as more expensive does not necessarily equate to 'better'.  Having just purchased a new USB DAC (higher-end Japanese brand) to replace NDX/555/nDAC combination it is very obvious the difference various power cables on both the DAC and power-amp now make, previously not so much with PLines on the previous setup. The most expensive (NZD1200) of the cables tested were by far the best and the differences were not subtle.  Expectation bias  -  perhaps but I am very aware of it having been caught out a couple of times previously, careful auditioning this time round.

nigelb posted:

If a top of the range 500 active system is not aspirational than I don't know what is!

Those with a DBL active system will see almost a tripling of the cost of a full SL loom compared to those with a passive system. I can see that would be a show-stopper.

Obviously not aspirational to me. Aspirations have a time limit - I could perhaps aspire to a Statement I suppose, but it's not high on my wishlist of aspirations (it's a pretty short list these days).

I'm willing to bet that many who have not got on with their NACA5 cables here is because of a poor termination in one way or another - I mean, even the 'type' of solder makes a huge difference.

The termination of NACA5 really has to be done properly or it will sound aggressive, disjointed or mediocre in one way or another, no matter what - i'm surprised that Naim never offered a mandatory factory termination process with NACA5 as they do with their Super Lumina cables. I'm convinced that this is why folk go hunting for other makes of really 'expensive' cables rather than sticking with what is essentially designed for the amps intended.

Perhaps this is why some rave about NACA5 and some do not.

The grey/Lavender is another great example...

With High quality Cables, they are only expensive if you decide to buy them.

Due to the nature of auditioning high end cables.....you have them for 2 or 3 weeks, longer if you do wish,   if they make a significant improvement you then decide to buy or not. 

The process costs nothing.....

Mr Frog posted:

Just buy active ATC’s and use basic cheap mic cable used in recording studios, between them and the preamp.

No nonsense with expensive cables and use the saving to buy more music and actually listen.

It is interesting that Naim never used to sing the praises and virtues of esoteric cables and everyone was more than happy with A5 or whatever.

Beware of marketing ploys .... that is why companies exist. I think Naim simply recognised that people were happy to pay a fortune for snake oil and credit to them, produced their own .... why not, sound business sense!

At the end of the day, spending a fortune on sound reproduction kit, shouldn’t require more outlay on riddiculously priced cables.

It should sound fantastic without such extortionate tweaks to make it perform.

It all reminds me of the children’s proverb about the “Emporers Clothes” ........

 

 

 spot on 

audio1946 posted:

Mr Frog posted:

Just buy active ATC’s and use basic cheap mic cable used in recording studios, between them and the preamp.

No nonsense with expensive cables and use the saving to buy more music and actually listen.

It is interesting that Naim never used to sing the praises and virtues of esoteric cables and everyone was more than happy with A5 or whatever.

Beware of marketing ploys .... that is why companies exist. I think Naim simply recognised that people were happy to pay a fortune for snake oil and credit to them, produced their own .... why not, sound business sense!

At the end of the day, spending a fortune on sound reproduction kit, shouldn’t require more outlay on riddiculously priced cables.

It should sound fantastic without such extortionate tweaks to make it perform.

It all reminds me of the children’s proverb about the “Emporers Clothes” ........

 

 

 spot on 

 

It reminds me of when my parents bought their first Black and white TV, it worked very well as I recall.....

then sadly big companies came along and designed much better TV’s, then Over the years plasma screens, LCD, then LED then OLED.....

These companies wanting to improve and develop and make things so much better.....

shame on them and their marketing ploys.......

l did notice though with my HD Hi Res OLED ‘doggy bollocks’TV that the emperor was actually wearing some clothes......????

It’s usually at this point in a thread that everyone needs a reminder that hifi is a hobby. Nobody actually needs it, like we do air, water, food, shelter, and civil rights. Whether it is a Sonos or a 555, it is all a luxury. So no need to get knickers in a twist, over anything to do with this distraction of ours. Some, who’ve done well in life financially, are able to go to a dealer, take his or her word, and plonk down $60k, have it delivered and set up and never have to think about it again. Others, like myself (a perpetually broke freelance photographer) have built up mour systems piece by piece, with careful consideration for vfm. My stereo budget this year was set at $0. So far I’ve gone over that by about 200% with some ground and cable tweaks learned about over on the CA forum, but for the increase in sound quality I achieved it sounds like at least a box step up or two. 

So the moral is, lets not be so serious about this. Same with camera forums, car forums, etc etc. Leave the vitriol for politics. This is just stuff. There’s room for people to spend to their heart’s delight on esoteric boutique items, and room for people to pull out the soldering iron and give it a go. Again, it’s a hobby - it’s supposed to be fun, fascinating, informative, and rewarding, no matter how one goes about it. 

What a wonderfully balance view!    Superb, thank you.

I’m probably way to late into this discussion but to answer the original question:

1. Yes they can make a huge difference/improvement. 

2. Yes they can be worth the money. Sometimes. 

Have fun!

//Jonas

Sorry, I'm late too but in my own experience, no, I no longer believe expensive cables are worth the money in comparison to custom made high quality pro audio cables such as mogami, belden, canare, etc. On the contrary, sometimes expensive cables can actually be a lot worse - vulnerable to RFI, poorly constructed/not robust, and fail to meet recognised standards/compliances.

charlesphoto posted:

It’s usually at this point in a thread that everyone needs a reminder that hifi is a hobby. Nobody actually needs it, like we do air, water, food, shelter, and civil rights. Whether it is a Sonos or a 555, it is all a luxury. So no need to get knickers in a twist, over anything to do with this distraction of ours. Some, who’ve done well in life financially, are able to go to a dealer, take his or her word, and plonk down $60k, have it delivered and set up and never have to think about it again. Others, like myself (a perpetually broke freelance photographer) have built up mour systems piece by piece, with careful consideration for vfm. My stereo budget this year was set at $0. So far I’ve gone over that by about 200% with some ground and cable tweaks learned about over on the CA forum, but for the increase in sound quality I achieved it sounds like at least a box step up or two. 

So the moral is, lets not be so serious about this. Same with camera forums, car forums, etc etc. Leave the vitriol for politics. This is just stuff. There’s room for people to spend to their heart’s delight on esoteric boutique items, and room for people to pull out the soldering iron and give it a go. Again, it’s a hobby - it’s supposed to be fun, fascinating, informative, and rewarding, no matter how one goes about it. 

Charles - agreed.  Politics might just be a tad more constructive without the vitriol as well. 

Regards,

Lindsay

Years ago I went from good quality interconnects to 10 times more expensive Cardas Golden Reference Ic's. It did make a difference yes, but a very very small one and certainly not worth the outlay.  Should have bought a NAT-02 instead. I learned my lesson...

 I’ve to see this thread back, with the ‘diversion’ removed. Regardless of from what angle or experience one approaches this,, there is much of interest and to stimulate thought. Thanks to the OP for starting, and Richard for reinstating.

Many thanks to Richard,

It would be great if everyone endeavours to debate respectfully.

It can’t be that difficult.

ps  definitely no offence taken on my part from anyone’s comments

charlesphoto posted:

it’s supposed to be fun, fascinating, informative, and rewarding, no matter how one goes about it. 

You are living in a completely different world.

The essence of an audiophile is being constantly frustrated, confused, insecure and unhappy, all that with an extremely fragile ego, creating the right conditions for endless-useless upgrades with no time left to be wasted on listening to real music. There is no way around it. If this doesn't sound familiar then you are just not a member of our brilliant cult..

Haim Ronen posted:

charlesphoto posted:

it’s supposed to be fun, fascinating, informative, and rewarding, no matter how one goes about it. 

You are living in a completely different world.

The essence of an audiophile is being constantly frustrated, confused, insecure and unhappy, all that with an extremely fragile ego, creating the right conditions for endless-useless upgrades with no time left to be wasted on listening to real music. There is no way around it. If this doesn't sound familiar then you are just not a member of our brilliant cult..

Haim, perfectly sumerised 

Haim Ronen posted:

charlesphoto posted:

it’s supposed to be fun, fascinating, informative, and rewarding, no matter how one goes about it. 

You are living in a completely different world.

The essence of an audiophile is being constantly frustrated, confused, insecure and unhappy, all that with an extremely fragile ego, creating the right conditions for endless-useless upgrades with no time left to be wasted on listening to real music. There is no way around it. If this doesn't sound familiar then you are just not a member of our brilliant cult..

I think I must have escaped...  By the skin of my teeth and not having a personality prone to addictions (and also possibly by studying electronic engineering for some of my time, leading to a slight excess of understanding!).

Haim Ronen posted:

You are living in a completely different world.

The essence of an audiophile is being constantly frustrated, confused, insecure and unhappy, all that with an extremely fragile ego, creating the right conditions for endless-useless upgrades with no time left to be wasted on listening to real music. There is no way around it. If this doesn't sound familiar then you are just not a member of our brilliant cult..

Oh dear, I’m clearly not an audiophile ‘cos I love to listen to and immerse myself in beautiful music with no distractions, hifi being my means to that end. I have tended to get it set up then forget about change for a few years, which is clearly not audiophile behaviour. Perhaps  I’m a a goodsoundophile combined with a musicophile...

Yeah I’m with the Bystander

Innocent Bystander posted:

Haim Ronen posted:

You are living in a completely different world.

The essence of an audiophile is being constantly frustrated, confused, insecure and unhappy, all that with an extremely fragile ego, creating the right conditions for endless-useless upgrades with no time left to be wasted on listening to real music. There is no way around it. If this doesn't sound familiar then you are just not a member of our brilliant cult..

Oh dear, I’m clearly not an audiophile ‘cos I love to listen to and immerse myself in beautiful music with no distractions, hifi being my means to that end. I have tended to get it set up then forget about change for a few years, which is clearly not audiophile behaviour. Perhaps  I’m a a goodsoundophile combined with a musicophile...

Anyone with a ratio of 100:1 (or higher) in posting on the HI Fi Corner VS the Music Room is an honorary member of the cult I mentioned before, and again: no way around it, the rest you can tell to the audiophile police.

Well if only my wife didn't have to put that abomination of a christmas tree once a year in our living room that forces me to move my already too close speakers even closer. if I was true audiophile I would just ban Xmas altogether! 

Haim Ronen posted:

charlesphoto posted:

it’s supposed to be fun, fascinating, informative, and rewarding, no matter how one goes about it. 

You are living in a completely different world.

The essence of an audiophile is being constantly frustrated, confused, insecure and unhappy, all that with an extremely fragile ego, creating the right conditions for endless-useless upgrades with no time left to be wasted on listening to real music. There is no way around it. If this doesn't sound familiar then you are just not a member of our brilliant cult..

your point of view is a bit pessimistic i think, but unfortunately you are for a big part in the truth.  But this reality is not constant :  sometimes we are immersed in the music without thinking of anything else, sometimes we are just observing the upgrades without really enjoying the music but the upgrades in sound quality, and sometimes we are thinking of the next upgrades we can do or we can dream of, without being completely satisfied by the system we have.    But i will not say we are constantly frustrated and in an endless -useless mode with no time left to be wasted on listening to real music : perhaps have you deliberately exaggerated the audiophile reality?

Haim was being tongue in cheek. He forgot to mention lack of humor. That said all salient points and maybe the irony gets easily missed depending on your native language.