Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

I upgraded to SL speaker cables last Christmas and completed the loom in the summer. For me, they’ve been more worthwhile. A small additional benefit is that they don’t look like hosepipes! My daughter had great glee telling Mummy how much they costalthough I was soon forgiven.

I've done the Sarum vs Hi-line comparison, and the Sarum just could not beat the hi-line with it came to these crucial qualities : Leading edge, grip on the notes, separation, rhythmic clarity.

It's the same with the standard Naim interconnect and Superlumina. All these Naim cables major in leading edge, immediacy, and engagement.

I just don't understand why people would pay for Naim equipment and then try to dilute (but in the minds improve) the very thing that made them buy Naim in the first place.

Ah so they will say, but Chord cables keep the Naim PRAT. Really? Not exactly to my ears, not when I compared Sarum to Hi-line. It doesn't have the same leading edge ability.

It doesn't have the same immediacy 

Rhythms doesn't grab my attention in the same way

So I need a full Chord loom for that.

Really? Why? Why do I need to spend so much more money when the Naim cables are really all that I need for the Naim sound.

And yes about my Chord Dave, it does something very musical and engaging, but let's not kid ourselves it doesn't sound exactly like a Naim source.

And I'm still very fond of Naim sources. 

Ravenswood10 posted:

I upgraded to SL speaker cables last Christmas and completed the loom in the summer. For me, they’ve been more worthwhile. A small additional benefit is that they don’t look like hosepipes! My daughter had great glee telling Mummy how much they costalthough I was soon forgiven.

Hope you managed to negotiate a favourable handbag/shoe exchange rate ?

Bribery always works

Surely [@mention:69004037368204356] unless we are in the naim test room with the speakers they use, none of us have the Naim sound as there are too many variables. My system sounded different when I used all standard cables but changed speakers from monitor audio to Revel. It sounded different again when I changed rooms. If, to get the Naim sound, we must all use naim wires to connect our naim boxes to our naim speakers wouldn’t that be a tad boring? I personally love the sound I get from Naim/TQ/Revel system. Each to their own I guess. 

analogmusic posted:

I've done the Sarum vs Hi-line comparison, and the Sarum just could not beat the hi-line with it came to these crucial qualities : Leading edge, grip on the notes, separation, rhythmic clarity.

It's the same with the standard Naim interconnect and Superlumina. All these Naim cables major in leading edge, immediacy, and engagement.

I just don't understand why people would pay for Naim equipment and then try to dilute (but in the minds improve) the very thing that made them buy Naim in the first place.

Ah so they will say, but Chord cables keep the Naim PRAT. Really? Not exactly to my ears, not when I compared Sarum to Hi-line. It doesn't have the same leading edge ability.

It doesn't have the same immediacy 

Rhythms doesn't grab my attention in the same way

So I need a full Chord loom for that.

Really? Why? Why do I need to spend so much more money when the Naim cables are really all that I need for the Naim sound.

And yes about my Chord Dave, it does something very musical and engaging, but let's not kid ourselves it doesn't sound exactly like a Naim source.

And I'm still very fond of Naim sources. 

I don't follow this obsession with the so-called 'Naim sound'.  I'm not encouraging anyone to achieve a 'Chord Music sound'.  I simply want to hear music as close to how the artist intended as possible.  I think Naim equipment across the range is good and sometimes exceptional for any given product and price point and has particular strengths (and weaknesses) that are fairly common but not unique across their range.  I include S/L and Powerline in this and am the proud owner of a Naim source and Naim amplfiers.  But 'Naim sound' implies either something artificial or a preferred compromise where the things that are done well are perceived as more than making up for any failings.  I don't think Chord Music dilutes any of the qualities that my Naim boxes were giving me.

Hi Analog,

I think Naim does more things right than just the leading edge. This is obviously very important to you and you are wise to go for complementary items that keep and/or highten that. Others may have different preferences inside the things Naim does particularly well and end up with other cables, DACs or whatever.

analogmusic posted:

One recent post said ChordMusic made his Naim system sound "stress free". But playing Metallica for me, I want to hear the energy, the passion, the ferociousness of the Lars hitting those drums.

Where does "Stress free" figure in my desire to hear the Naim kit do it's best?

I don't want to hear a zero noise floor. I want to hear the energy and passion of metallica. 

If Naim think the best possible  cable advancement for a Naim system are Superlumina and Powerlines, well, maybe that's all there is to it. Maybe we are really hearing from Superlumina the real sound of our black boxes, and the next upgrade is and should be a black box upgrade?

I can understand why some people on the forum are not that impressed with Superlumina, because in fact they don't make the old cables sound broken.  How could they. They old cables are not broken !!! The kit was designed with the standard Naim cables !!!!!

They are a big improvement on the old cables, but to my ears keep the same rhythmic qualities and get out of the way even more, but they don't change the Naim sound and voicing. To me that's a major achievement.

But still the standard Naim cables are in fact very good, and while Superlumina is better, I'm not sure that SL turns a 282 into a 552. 

Maybe SL and NACA5 are the proper voicing of how a Naim amplifier is supposed to sound? well Naim HQ thinks so.

I find that all this enthusiasm for alternative cables is for a change in how the Naim equipment sounds, but is that the job of a cable?

No, Not for me at least.

The whole Naim kit is about (for me) timing - and the Naim cables preserve timing, even if some alternative cables have different voicing and more pleasant high's or bass or mids or whatever noise floor I've yet to hear a Naim cable beaten for timing and rhythmic ability.

Why does this issue not get mentioned in all the chord cable hysteria?

So basically 'mum knows best'.as my mother used to tell me when I was growing up.  To be fair, she was right some of the time but certainly not all of it.

Think of ethernet cables as just another interconnect - whereas RCA’s connect from point A to point B, ethernet cables go from A to B to C to F to N to Z and so on. In fact they begin outside of the house. So whatever one can do to get the high and low level level hash out of the line the better it will sound. The DAC can only interpret what it’s given, and give it a cleaner low noise signal and it will sound better. 

analogmusic posted:

I've done the Sarum vs Hi-line comparison, and the Sarum just could not beat the hi-line with it came to these crucial qualities : Leading edge, grip on the notes, separation, rhythmic clarity.

It's the same with the standard Naim interconnect and Superlumina. All these Naim cables major in leading edge, immediacy, and engagement.

I just don't understand why people would pay for Naim equipment and then try to dilute (but in the minds improve) the very thing that made them buy Naim in the first place.

Ah so they will say, but Chord cables keep the Naim PRAT. Really? Not exactly to my ears, not when I compared Sarum to Hi-line. It doesn't have the same leading edge ability.

It doesn't have the same immediacy 

Rhythms doesn't grab my attention in the same way

So I need a full Chord loom for that.

Really? Why? Why do I need to spend so much more money when the Naim cables are really all that I need for the Naim sound.

And yes about my Chord Dave, it does something very musical and engaging, but let's not kid ourselves it doesn't sound exactly like a Naim source.

And I'm still very fond of Naim sources. 

analogmusic,

You are not completely coherent because you don’t understand some members chord cables choices because it breaks the integrity of naim sound but in the same time you use a non naim source.  But you seem to prefer it to a naim source, perhaps because it gives you a nicier and more fluid sound, more analog in some kind.  And i respect your choice.

A friend of mine have a high end esoteric k01x cd/sacd player, with all naim amps. Someone recently told me that my friend has to change first the source, a problem for him, because non naim ...Why, this esoteric has some qualities the naim sources have not and my friend prefers it.

The same with chord cables, which can give a balance in sound that some can prefer.

I have compared one day the hiline vs the chord signature tuned array, and preferred easily the last: more fluidity, better tone colors and not the little brightness the hiline gave sometimes. As for dynamic and prat or bass, i didn’t noticed some lack vs hiline: it is just more calm, ordered, open, less in your face, more natural.  The first impression is less dynamic but it is not( and i love jazz modern, jazz rock and funk-soul music).

But it is just a personal preference, and i am not criticizing an all naim system, with sbl or dbl and naca5: it is just not my cup of tea but can accept that some can love it.

charlesphoto posted:

Think of ethernet cables as just another interconnect - whereas RCA’s connect from point A to point B, ethernet cables go from A to B to C to F to N to Z and so on. In fact they begin outside of the house. So whatever one can do to get the high and low level level hash out of the line the better it will sound. The DAC can only interpret what it’s given, and give it a cleaner low noise signal and it will sound better. 

I don't follow this.

The Ethernet cables don't begin outside the house, as the connection from outside is either Cable (TV), FttP, FttC or ADSL.  The data are received, transformed, buffered/reassembled, inspected/filtered, routed and then converted to physical Ethernet packages for onward transmission.

Inside the house, Ethernet cables are balanced, and switches buffer and regenerate the packets, so even inside the network there isn't a direct connection (no more so than there is from the mains supply to your interconnects).  Even in the streamer the network RX circuitry is balanced (and in the case Naim, and frequently others, is transformer coupled ensuring a truly balanced signal and a high CMRR in respect of the data lines).

charlesphoto posted:

Think of ethernet cables as just another interconnect - whereas RCA’s connect from point A to point B, ethernet cables go from A to B to C to F to N to Z and so on. In fact they begin outside of the house. So whatever one can do to get the high and low level level hash out of the line the better it will sound. The DAC can only interpret what it’s given, and give it a cleaner low noise signal and it will sound better. 

I'm not sure that's quite the right way of thinking about it.

I don't think the argument is about giving a more accurate string of 1s and 0s to the DAC - the interference we are talking about is not enough to effect that. I THINK it is about acting as a conduit for HF noise into the streamer which may then pollute the power supplies and analogue side of the device. But as ever with electronics I'm in territory where I know JUST enough to get myself into trouble!

JedT posted:

charlesphoto posted:

Think of ethernet cables as just another interconnect - whereas RCA’s connect from point A to point B, ethernet cables go from A to B to C to F to N to Z and so on. In fact they begin outside of the house. So whatever one can do to get the high and low level level hash out of the line the better it will sound. The DAC can only interpret what it’s given, and give it a cleaner low noise signal and it will sound better. 

I'm not sure that's quite the right way of thinking about it.

I don't think the argument is about giving a more accurate string of 1s and 0s to the DAC - the interference we are talking about is not enough to effect that. I THINK it is about acting as a conduit for HF noise into the streamer which may then pollute the power supplies and analogue side of the device. But as ever with electronics I'm in territory where I know JUST enough to get myself into trouble!

Yup, JedT, that's right

Huge posted:

JedT posted:

charlesphoto posted:

Think of ethernet cables as just another interconnect - whereas RCA’s connect from point A to point B, ethernet cables go from A to B to C to F to N to Z and so on. In fact they begin outside of the house. So whatever one can do to get the high and low level level hash out of the line the better it will sound. The DAC can only interpret what it’s given, and give it a cleaner low noise signal and it will sound better. 

I'm not sure that's quite the right way of thinking about it.

I don't think the argument is about giving a more accurate string of 1s and 0s to the DAC - the interference we are talking about is not enough to effect that. I THINK it is about acting as a conduit for HF noise into the streamer which may then pollute the power supplies and analogue side of the device. But as ever with electronics I'm in territory where I know JUST enough to get myself into trouble!

Yup, JedT, that's right

my experience is same as charllesphoto:  i removed some noise from ethernet with an optical bridge on high quality linear ps before the nds and put a good quality lan cables vs the standard lan i had before:  a very significant improvement!  more even than between standard power cord and powerline.

French Rooster posted:

Huge posted:

JedT posted:

charlesphoto posted:

Think of ethernet cables as just another interconnect - whereas RCA’s connect from point A to point B, ethernet cables go from A to B to C to F to N to Z and so on. In fact they begin outside of the house. So whatever one can do to get the high and low level level hash out of the line the better it will sound. The DAC can only interpret what it’s given, and give it a cleaner low noise signal and it will sound better. 

I'm not sure that's quite the right way of thinking about it.

I don't think the argument is about giving a more accurate string of 1s and 0s to the DAC - the interference we are talking about is not enough to effect that. I THINK it is about acting as a conduit for HF noise into the streamer which may then pollute the power supplies and analogue side of the device. But as ever with electronics I'm in territory where I know JUST enough to get myself into trouble!

Yup, JedT, that's right

my experience is same as charllesphoto:  i removed some noise from ethernet with an optical bridge on high quality linear ps before the nds and put a good quality lan cables vs the standard lan i had before:  a very significant improvement!  more even than between standard power cord and powerline.

 

I use ferrites on the Ethernet cables to reduce CM noise and yes I can detect the difference.

However the rationale in respect of the comparison to analogue interconnect cables still isn't right - the mechanisms are different.

hey Huge,

i couldn’t believe before that ethernet optimizing is worthwhile: i thought that bits are just bits and didn’t understood why have a dedicated switch vs the router or good lans or lan isolation from noise.  But i tried and i am convinced today, no way back possible.

lan cables have the same importance as analog or digital cables....try and you will be surprised!

French rooster

I very much love the hi-line in your face sound

for me that’s engagement immediacy leading edge rhythmic and most of all fun !

thats why I bought Naim amplifiers 

I don’t want any dilution of this via a 2100 gbp Sarum cable

you said first impression it seems less dynamic but it is not when referring to Sarum.

im now wise to these tricks. Sorry but I’m not falling for that again. I spent much time trying and auditioning many cables highly recommended on this forum.

it is less dynamic than hi-line , period 

my ears my interpretation etc etc

analogmusic posted:

One recent post said ChordMusic made his Naim system sound "stress free". But playing Metallica for me, I want to hear the energy, the passion, the ferociousness of the Lars hitting those drums.

Where does "Stress free" figure in my desire to hear the Naim kit do it's best?

I don't want to hear a zero noise floor. I want to hear the energy and passion of metallica. 

Maybe SL and NACA5 are the proper voicing of how a Naim amplifier is supposed to sound? well Naim HQ thinks so.

I find that all this enthusiasm for alternative cables is for a change in how the Naim equipment sounds, but is that the job of a cable?

No, Not for me at least.

The whole Naim kit is about (for me) timing - and the Naim cables preserve timing, even if some alternative cables have different voicing and more pleasant high's or bass or mids or whatever noise floor I've yet to hear a Naim cable beaten for timing and rhythmic ability.

Why does this issue not get mentioned in all the chord cable hysteria?

You’re obviously interested in hearing Music, despite your rather irrational anti-Chord stance, and that’s exactly what you should do. When you next make a trip to the UK, make an appointment to hear ChordMusic in a Naim system. Then you’ll be in a position to understand what the fuss is about. At the moment, some of your assertions are meaningless.

I love my Naim gear - heck, I’ve bought enough of it over the years - but that doesn't mean that   I have to run an end-to-end Naim system to appreciate it. You didn’t. And we don’t think that makes you a bad person.

The essence of this hobby surely is to enjoy music to the utmost, and some of us have found that the inclusion of Chord cabling in a Naim system moves that enjoyment level up a level or three. 

I started here in 2001. It’s always been a Hi-Fi forum albeit hosted by Naim. Therefore people here get labelled just about everywhere as sheep because we choose Naim and don’t look elsewhere.

But if you look beyond the fact that, as it’s a Naim forum, it’s always going to be populated by people seeking that Naim experience , it has also always had a healthy number of people with so-called mongrel systems (most notably with speakers) and more particularly people with NO NAIM WHATSOEVER!

And that’s great because it opens debate and exploration. And as we will all admit, there is no “right way”.

So can we have less of this calling people out for shilling other brands, and less of this “Roy George didn’t do it this way”, and more of “I think this was ace, try it for yourselves“ without the holier than thou rhetoric.

Please.

Remember The Mana Wars...

Nick Lees posted:

I started here in 2001. It’s always been a Hi-Fi forum albeit hosted by Naim. Therefore people here get labelled just about everywhere as sheep because we choose Naim and don’t look elsewhere.

But if you look beyond the fact that, as it’s a Naim forum, it’s always going to be populated by people seeking that Naim experience , it has also always had a healthy number of people with so-called mongrel systems (most notably with speakers) and more particularly people with NO NAIM WHATSOEVER!

And that’s great because it opens debate and exploration. And as we will all admit, there is no “right way”.

So can we have less of this calling people out for shilling other brands, and less of this “Roy George didn’t do it this way”, and more of “I think this was ace, try it for yourselves“ without the holier than thou rhetoric.

Please.

Remember The Mana Wars...

Well said Nick

OK, we should then remain CHORDial at all times.

Haim Ronen posted:

OK, we should then remain CHORDiall at all times.

Haim Ronen posted:

OK, we should then remain CHORDiall at all times.

Yeah, but just don’t diss my taste in music (with a small ‘m’), man.

analogmusic posted:

French rooster

I very much love the hi-line in your face sound

for me that’s engagement immediacy leading edge rhythmic and most of all fun !

thats why I bought Naim amplifiers 

I don’t want any dilution of this via a 2100 gbp Sarum cable

you said first impression it seems less dynamic but it is not when referring to Sarum.

im now wise to these tricks. Sorry but I’m not falling for that again. I spent much time trying and auditioning many cables highly recommended on this forum.

it is less dynamic than hi-line , period 

my ears my interpretation etc etc

 

i saïd it was the first impression as less dynamic but not after some listenings it was not.

For you it is less, no problem. But even if it was a little bit less dynamic, i would take them vs the hiline, because dynamics with brightness is not interesting for me, I want to hear the true tones of instruments. the naturalness of a voice and all different colors of instruments.  I am not saying hiline are bright by themselves, but a little vs chord signature tuned array ( same price category)

But dynamics and prat are also very important to me: the reason i have a nap300dr, a very dynamic tube preamp and a naim source.

If i was only listening to poor 60’s rock engineered albums, or hard rock, perhaps i would favor only dynamic side and choose an all naim with its speakers system.

For superlumina, i have not heard them and perhaps i would like them more than my present cables. Maybe one day....

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Changing to Chord speaker cables made me enjoy Naim more. Adding TQ interconnects (RCA!) even more. Finally adding Nordost USB to my Chord Dac made my system (and my SN2!) sound absolutely wonderful.

Synergy is all in your brain! Connect whatever cable of choice and rejoice when fellow members buy whatever the like and can afford!

its all about the music and our love for hifi.so thank you everyone for sharing your experience!