Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

I think a good test is whether you play a favourite track on an album and then find yourself not just listening to the next track but find yourself listening to the whole of the rest of the album.  Even tracks you didn't previously rate.  That was my experience tonight.  I'm only posting now because Mrs C has gone to bed and needs to get up at 6:00 am.  Look, I'm not telling anyone with a high end Naim system that they 'NEED' Chord Music, but if they are considering an upgrade at a similar cost they should definitely have a listen.

Completely logical, unless you would never contemplate spending so much on cables, in which case probably better not to audition Music and the like (if there is an equivalent).

Peter

Nick Lees posted:

I started here in 2001. It’s always been a Hi-Fi forum albeit hosted by Naim. Therefore people here get labelled just about everywhere as sheep because we choose Naim and don’t look elsewhere.

But if you look beyond the fact that, as it’s a Naim forum, it’s always going to be populated by people seeking that Naim experience , it has also always had a healthy number of people with so-called mongrel systems (most notably with speakers) and more particularly people with NO NAIM WHATSOEVER!

And that’s great because it opens debate and exploration. And as we will all admit, there is no “right way”.

So can we have less of this calling people out for shilling other brands, and less of this “Roy George didn’t do it this way”, and more of “I think this was ace, try it for yourselves“ without the holier than thou rhetoric.

Please.

Remember The Mana Wars...

Nicely put Nick I too have been on the forum since 2006 and recently can't believe the sheer devotion of some posters here.I have often visualised in my mind them praying 3 times a day on a prayer mat pointed to the direction of the factory.... perhaps even a Naim tattoo adorning an arm !

Tabby cat posted:

Nick Lees posted:

I started here in 2001. It’s always been a Hi-Fi forum albeit hosted by Naim. Therefore people here get labelled just about everywhere as sheep because we choose Naim and don’t look elsewhere.

But if you look beyond the fact that, as it’s a Naim forum, it’s always going to be populated by people seeking that Naim experience , it has also always had a healthy number of people with so-called mongrel systems (most notably with speakers) and more particularly people with NO NAIM WHATSOEVER!

And that’s great because it opens debate and exploration. And as we will all admit, there is no “right way”.

So can we have less of this calling people out for shilling other brands, and less of this “Roy George didn’t do it this way”, and more of “I think this was ace, try it for yourselves“ without the holier than thou rhetoric.

Please.

Remember The Mana Wars...

Nicely put Nick I too have been on the forum since 2006 and recently can't believe the sheer devotion of some posters here.I have often visualised in my mind them praying 3 times a day on a prayer mat pointed to the direction of the factory.... perhaps even a Naim tattoo adorning an arm !

 

Some might consider the tattoo, when given a 30% discount. I am not one of them, hate tattoos....

Doesn't it all depend on one's definition of 'expensive'? prior to undertaking an appreciation of different concepts of 'worth'? There seems to be an implicit assumption in the OP's question that cables do make a difference to SQ but a query over the justification of price. How much are you prepared to spend? What percentage of your system budget would you spend on cables?  Given that Naim consider the cables to be an integral part of the system it might be argued that they should be considered on a par with the boxes of electronics themselves. If you accept that premise then it isn't difficult to justify the cost of super lumina, Hi Lines et alia on cost alone, irrespective of SQ.

Bryce Curdy posted:

I think a good test is whether you play a favourite track on an album and then find yourself not just listening to the next track but find yourself listening to the whole of the rest of the album.  Even tracks you didn't previously rate.   

 Not so sure about that: all too often when comparing new things I forget what I’m supposed to be doing and get lost in the music - with both items. It is just a function of music.

I suppose the answer is to do assessments only with music I can’t stand (that would be painful exercise, both buying and subjecting myself to it!) Is this what others do?

Nick Lees posted:

I started here in 2001. It’s always been a Hi-Fi forum albeit hosted by Naim. Therefore people here get labelled just about everywhere as sheep because we choose Naim and don’t look elsewhere.

But if you look beyond the fact that, as it’s a Naim forum, it’s always going to be populated by people seeking that Naim experience , it has also always had a healthy number of people with so-called mongrel systems (most notably with speakers) and more particularly people with NO NAIM WHATSOEVER!

And that’s great because it opens debate and exploration. And as we will all admit, there is no “right way”.

So can we have less of this calling people out for shilling other brands, and less of this “Roy George didn’t do it this way”, and more of “I think this was ace, try it for yourselves“ without the holier than thou rhetoric.

Please.

Remember The Mana Wars...

I've now heard a number of cables highly rated by esteemed members of the forum, and well, they do change the sound, while retaining to some degree some of the Naim qualities of the original naim cables.

BUT it is a matter of money at the end of the day.

The Naim power line designed by Roy George who is the keeper of the Naim sound, costs 600 GBP (new price list)

Nobody outside Naim knows the Naim engineering better than Roy George. 

The Sarum or Chordmusic Power cables cost a lot more.

The Naim power lines are supplied with their Statement. Naim aren't stupid, if they felt they could make a better cable than power lines, they would have by now.

So when Chord cables start asking for 4 figure money and it is a big ask, well people could (as I am ) understandably get quite negative about this like I am, and start auditioning or not, with quite a skeptical/negative min.

Any deviation from the my idea of effect on Naim performance and it is "you are the weakest link - and out" for me.

Now if the cables were priced at same prices as Naim, then it is a matter of preference, not a matter of money.

Right now with ChordMusic it's a matter of money. But I'm still curious and will make an effort to hear it.

But my reasons/bias are to eliminate it - and hopefully tell the forum that I prefer Superlumina.

Let's see when that happens and if indeed which cable I like more. But I have a negative bias due to the price.

It is the last non-Naim cable I am prepared to spend my time auditioning. 

I think Superlumina was the limit of how much customers are willing to tolerate in cable prices by the way. And I still wish it was a lot less money.

I mean in the last sentence, Naim customers, since we have choices in terms of spending this money on black box upgrades instead.

And I just checked, the ChordMusic power cable asking price is a whopping 5000 GBP.

I don't need to audition that one, I'm very happy with the power line lite at 99 GBP.

Even the Vertere Hand Built mains cable is considerably less at 2000 GBP

5000 GBP ???? 

analogmusic posted:

I've now heard a number of cables highly rated by esteemed members of the forum, and well, they do change the sound, while retaining to some degree some of the Naim qualities of the original naim cables.

BUT it is a matter of money at the end of the day.

The Naim power line designed by Roy George who is the keeper of the Naim sound, costs 600 GBP (new price list)

Nobody outside Naim knows the Naim engineering better than Roy George. 

The Sarum or Chordmusic Power cables cost a lot more.

The Naim power lines are supplied with their Statement. Naim aren't stupid, if they felt they could make a better cable than power lines, they would have by now.

So when Chord cables start asking for 4 figure money and it is a big ask, well people could (as I am ) understandably get quite negative about this like I am, and start auditioning or not, with quite a skeptical/negative min.

Any deviation from the my idea of effect on Naim performance and it is "you are the weakest link - and out" for me.

Now if the cables were priced at same prices as Naim, then it is a matter of preference, not a matter of money.

Right now with ChordMusic it's a matter of money. But I'm still curious and will make an effort to hear it.

But my reasons/bias are to eliminate it - and hopefully tell the forum that I prefer Superlumina.

Let's see when that happens and if indeed which cable I like more. But I have a negative bias due to the price.

It is the last non-Naim cable I am prepared to spend my time auditioning. 

I think Superlumina was the limit of how much customers are willing to tolerate in cable prices by the way. And I still wish it was a lot less money.

I find this all a bit strange, illogical and frankly unhelpful.  Why would anyone want your biased (your word) opinion?  I wouldn't waste your time auditioning'; you have already decided what you are going to hear.

A good cable is a good cable.  The whole point of a good cable is that it doesn't change the sound, or rather that it changes it less than an inferior one.  Naim cables don't add the qualities you value to the sound; they are just good at not diluting them.  The same could be said about their sources and amplifiers.

analogmusic posted:

I mean in the last sentence, Naim customers, since we have choices in terms of spending this money on black box upgrades instead.

And I just checked, the ChordMusic power cable asking price is a whopping 5000 GBP.

I don't need to audition that one, I'm very happy with the power line lite at 99 GBP.

Even the Vertere Hand Built mains cable is considerably less at 2000 GBP

5000 GBP ???? 

But if you could afford £5000 you would doubtless audition it if Chord enclosed their cable in an otherwise empty black box, more so if they stuck a green light on the front.

I had midrange Chord interconnect and speaker cable for many years.  The first time I ventured into silly money territory (and it is silly money) was when I listened to a Sarum Tuned Aray (the version prior to Super Aray) power cable on my NAC552.  To be fair, I was comparing it with the standard supplied kettle lead as from memory Naim had not yet launched Powerline.  I approached the audition in a pretty sceptical frame of mind but it was one of those less than 10 second no brainers.  I regard it as probably the biggest bang for my buck upgrade in nearly 30 years.  Likewise, earlier this week I thought I would 'compromise' on the power cable for my NAP300DR and go with Sarum T rather than Music as it was 'only' a 300 (rather than say a 500).  But the Music just sounded so much better.

The only advice I am trying to give is that any forum member fortunate enough to have a few thousand pounds to spend on an upgrade at least considers cables (Naim, Chord, et al) as an option rather than assume that it must be a black box and that cables can only ever make a marginal difference because despite wanting this to be the case it simply is not.

analogmusic posted:

I mean in the last sentence, Naim customers, since we have choices in terms of spending this money on black box upgrades instead.

And I just checked, the ChordMusic power cable asking price is a whopping 5000 GBP.

I don't need to audition that one, I'm very happy with the power line lite at 99 GBP.

Even the Vertere Hand Built mains cable is considerably less at 2000 GBP

5000 GBP ???? 

Isn’t this precisely the OP’s question? 

So, to you, there is some arbitrary figure above which the answer is categorically no, and for mains cables £5k is above it (it’s not clear if £2k for your favoured Vertere brand is above it, though the implicTion is yes) - and above your limit figure you won’t even listen. 

I suspect that many people have an arbitrary limit figure, whether or not they’ve thought of it that way, which unless they are so well heeled that money is no object. I suspect any arbitrary limit could well be differ according to the cable function: mains, interconnect, speaker, SPDIF, ethernet based either on believed impossibility of further limit to possible improvement, or on proportion of other costs (individual electronics or total system), or simply on personal available budget.

So, can I suggest this is the question to follow through  - for all contributirs to this forum, starting with you as you’ve been so vocal about Chord cables being too expensive yet happy to spend what many people would consider to be a ridiculous amount on some cables. What is your ceiling price that you would not consider going above, broken down by cable function if not equal for all? 

(Mine has been nominally £100 per cable, but that isn’t an absolute ceiling and I recognise it varies by function, so I’ll come back later with my list)

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

Isn’t this precisely the OP’s question? 

So, to you, there is some arbitrary figure above which the answer is categorically no, and for mains cables £5k is above it (it’s not clear if £2k for your favoured Vertere brand is above it, though the implicTion is yes) - and above your limit figure you won’t even listen. 

I suspect that many people have an arbitrary limit figure, whether or not they’ve thought of it that way, which unless they are so well heeled that money is no object. I suspect any arbitrary limit could well be differ according to the cable function: mains, interconnect, speaker, SPDIF, ethernet based either on believed impossibility of further limit to possible improvement, or on proportion of other costs (individual electronics or total system), or simply on personal available budget.

So, can I suggest this is the question to follow through  - for all contributirs to this forum, starting with you as you’ve been so vocal about Chord cables being too expensive yet happy to spend what many people would consider to be a ridiculous amount on some cables. What is your ceiling price that you would not consider going above, broken down by cable function if not equal for all? 

(Mine has been nominally £100 per cable, but that isn’t an absolute ceiling and I recognise it varies by function, so I’ll come back later with my list)

 

'The arbitrary figure should not depend on the cable function or even whether it is a cable or black box.  It should only depend on affordability and what it contributes to musical enjoyment.

analogmusic posted:

Nick Lees posted:

I started here in 2001. It’s always been a Hi-Fi forum albeit hosted by Naim. Therefore people here get labelled just about everywhere as sheep because we choose Naim and don’t look elsewhere.

But if you look beyond the fact that, as it’s a Naim forum, it’s always going to be populated by people seeking that Naim experience , it has also always had a healthy number of people with so-called mongrel systems (most notably with speakers) and more particularly people with NO NAIM WHATSOEVER!

And that’s great because it opens debate and exploration. And as we will all admit, there is no “right way”.

So can we have less of this calling people out for shilling other brands, and less of this “Roy George didn’t do it this way”, and more of “I think this was ace, try it for yourselves“ without the holier than thou rhetoric.

Please.

Remember The Mana Wars...

I've now heard a number of cables highly rated by esteemed members of the forum, and well, they do change the sound, while retaining to some degree some of the Naim qualities of the original naim cables.

BUT it is a matter of money at the end of the day.

The Naim power line designed by Roy George who is the keeper of the Naim sound, costs 600 GBP (new price list)

Nobody outside Naim knows the Naim engineering better than Roy George. 

The Sarum or Chordmusic Power cables cost a lot more.

The Naim power lines are supplied with their Statement. Naim aren't stupid, if they felt they could make a better cable than power lines, they would have by now.

So when Chord cables start asking for 4 figure money and it is a big ask, well people could (as I am ) understandably get quite negative about this like I am, and start auditioning or not, with quite a skeptical/negative min.

Any deviation from the my idea of effect on Naim performance and it is "you are the weakest link - and out" for me.

Now if the cables were priced at same prices as Naim, then it is a matter of preference, not a matter of money.

Right now with ChordMusic it's a matter of money. But I'm still curious and will make an effort to hear it.

But my reasons/bias are to eliminate it - and hopefully tell the forum that I prefer Superlumina.

Let's see when that happens and if indeed which cable I like more. But I have a negative bias due to the price.

It is the last non-Naim cable I am prepared to spend my time auditioning. 

I think Superlumina was the limit of how much customers are willing to tolerate in cable prices by the way. And I still wish it was a lot less money.

You quoted Nick, but you didn’t understand what he said.  Why not give up on your petty personal vendetta? It’s boring and adds no value to the forum.

Chord aren’t the enemy.  Quite simply they’re enabling some of us to enjoy our Naim systems even more than we did and, in the interests of other forum members, some of us have spoken about it. That’s all.

Unfortunately, as Bryce says, you’ve already made up your mind about Music, just as you did about Sarum Super (which you initially said you really liked) and Sarum T, which you also haven’t heard. We already know what you’re going to say and that’s a real shame.

"We already know what you’re going to say and that’s a real shame."

Oh no we don't!!  (well, it is panto season after all)....

Reading a little deeper into some of the comments above, I wonder if we have all been more than a bit conditioned by what Naim had to offer pre-Superlumina and Powerline.  (I appreciate that Chord et al have offered alternatives for longer however, I reckon Naim's new cables opened the debate here).  There really wasn't anything other than NACA5 which was comparatively affordable and most of the focus on the forum was on the Naim upgrades available ie black boxes.  You want to upgrade your system, well, that'll be a question of which black box or Fraim levels do you want to change/ add.  The arrival of the Naim 'super cables' has opened up the discussion on here, but I must confess that my mindset was not very open to considering spending thousands on cables.  As Dave will no doubt confirm, I still struggle with it!  And I think this puts a bit of a barrier in place to try and objectively assess whether cable A, B or C results in a better sounding system.  The elevated price tags can simply create a mental block.  And I don't think this is simply a function of how wealthy you happen to be - it's as much to do with our conditioning/ expectation/ acceptance to date as to where money should be spent on your system.

With cable life cycle developments outpacing the development of high end black boxes, I don't doubt the battle of perceptions will rage on for some time to come, as folks try to get the best out of the black boxes in their possession.....

Peter

YEs I did like it until a did a fair and square compare to Superlumina 

superlumina is better is every criteria important to me

there’s a version of stairway to version on rodrigo and Garcia live in Japan album.

It’s good test track. Just listen to that with both cables. 

OH and I’m skeptical but still open minded. I own non-naim source and speakers after all.

and no issues to admit when I’m wrong and the product is great. 

I also purchased 4 Chord cables including Aray Clearway and compared them to vertere ones so very familiar with Chord house sound. The vertere ones for what I like are better so I bought those too. 

have chord overcome my concerns wiith the ChordMusic??

thats my question 

French Rooster posted:

hey Huge,

i couldn’t believe before that ethernet optimizing is worthwhile: i thought that bits are just bits and didn’t understood why have a dedicated switch vs the router or good lans or lan isolation from noise.  But i tried and i am convinced today, no way back possible.

lan cables have the same importance as analog or digital cables....try and you will be surprised!

Yes, I have been doing this for more than a year, but I used normal electronic design principles to optimise the RFI control, rather than buying fancy and very expensive cables.  Having previously designed my own HiFi amps, it didn't surprise me at all.

Incidentally I also take a similar approach to control of RFI with both interconnect and mains cables, and then, by ear, optimise the solution to my particular circumstances (my house is exposed to quite a lot of externally sourced RFI).

Huge posted:

Yes, I have been doing this for more than a year, but I used normal electronic design principles to optimise the RFI control, rather than buying fancy and very expensive cables.  Having previously designed my own HiFi amps, it didn't surprise me at all.

I would add that expensive (as in audiophile expensive) do diddly squat for RFI control.    

analogmusic posted:

OH and I’m skeptical but still open minded. I own non-naim source and speakers after all.

and no issues to admit when I’m wrong and the product is great. 

I also purchased 4 Chord cables including Aray Clearway and compared them to vertere ones so very familiar with Chord house sound. The vertere ones for what I like are better so I bought those too. 

have chord overcome my concerns wiith the ChordMusic??

thats my question 

 

Is there a Graemlin for Yawn?

When the price is high scepticism is perfectly reasonable, if it is then overcome by audition then fair enough but the price raises the barrier.

Bryce Curdy posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

Isn’t this precisely the OP’s question? 

So, to you, there is some arbitrary figure above which the answer is categorically no, and for mains cables £5k is above it (it’s not clear if £2k for your favoured Vertere brand is above it, though the implicTion is yes) - and above your limit figure you won’t even listen. 

I suspect that many people have an arbitrary limit figure, whether or not they’ve thought of it that way, which unless they are so well heeled that money is no object. I suspect any arbitrary limit could well be differ according to the cable function: mains, interconnect, speaker, SPDIF, ethernet based either on believed impossibility of further limit to possible improvement, or on proportion of other costs (individual electronics or total system), or simply on personal available budget.

So, can I suggest this is the question to follow through  - for all contributirs to this forum, starting with you as you’ve been so vocal about Chord cables being too expensive yet happy to spend what many people would consider to be a ridiculous amount on some cables. What is your ceiling price that you would not consider going above, broken down by cable function if not equal for all? 

(Mine has been nominally £100 per cable, but that isn’t an absolute ceiling and I recognise it varies by function, so I’ll come back later with my list)

 

'The arbitrary figure should not depend on the cable function or even whether it is a cable or black box.  It should only depend on affordability and what it contributes to musical enjoyment.

You are absolutely right, however what I surmised was that where people do set an arbitrary limit, consciously or otherwise, they may very well do that  differently by cable function, e.g. based on perception of likelihood of cable having a significant effect - and clearly that applies to Analogmusic, who seems to have a limit of £100 for mains cable but £1000s for interconnects and/or speaker cables - hence my question to all - do you have a cost limit above which you would not even consider a cable, even if not formally voiced even to yourself, and dies it vary by cable function (if so, what for which)?

The religious / flame war emerging here is, I think, tied to the heart of the OP’s question of value for money: “are they worth the cost” is not a technical question in the same way as “is there a performance difference”. 

On the latter, technical and performance issue, the two camps seem most often to boil down to “I don’t know why there should be, so there isn’t” and “I don’t know why there should be, but I can hear it”. There is great comfort in certainty, of course, and less comfort in ambiguity. In another thread, somebody clearly felt happier to stick with £1.50/m hookup wire when advised by PhD co-workers that there is no difference and hence no value in buying something more expensive. In my view, this is an ideal end point for him: he’s happy with what he has and convinced that he’s right. No problem! Unless personal certainty turns toward arguing that it is an absolute and thus something for everyone to believe and do. In this thread, some have heard differences and deemed them either worthwhile for the cost or not worthwhile; in other cases (including some of home demos I’ve done myself), the experience is that there is not much if any difference between what’s in hand and a new thing and then it’s trivial to conclude that the incremental expense isn’t worthwhile.

On the other hand, and speaking as a physicist myself, I know that better wiring and connections and so on can lead to higher quality measurements in the laboratory - at ultra high precision, everything matters and anecdotal experience can help improve signal to noise. The recent long summary post in the Ethernet cables thread contains good information on how things like the consistency of the pitch for twisted pairs can improve the quality of common mode noise rejection at RF frequencies, and suggests that cheaper cabling can cost less if this manufacturing control parameter is treated with less care. When it doesn’t matter - ie when there is no consequence - saving the money makes sense (the quote compared some home applications against data center requirements as an example). At audio frequencies, many things “shouldn’t matter” that do for good quality audio reproduction and everyone on here probably agrees that flaws in the physical connection can lead to degradation in the quality of what we hear... so it’s not really in dispute that some minimum quality standard is appropriate. I’ve seen enough talk from posters on the forum about small factors becoming more noticeable and hence more important to control as the overall system performance improves to feel safe in asserting that most here likely agree that this minimum standard probably becomes more strict as you move “up the ladder”. 

The emotional question of how something so apparently simple, and which on the face of it should not have a large influence on the sound, can yet cost so much... well that is at the core of many comments here. In another thread (on high quality integrated amps as replacements for separates) I mentioned a German company called In-Acustik which mines, refines, and draws their own copper to produce wires and cables. Their web site is cool, and worth checking out to see how they take basic physics considerations and implement them with progressively more care in their progressively more expensive products. At the highest price point, it’s clear that the extensive manual labour and quality control is the dominant cost... which harkens back to the Ethernet twisted pair story. Their no-nonsense approach appeals to me. Their “sensible” pricing also appeals to me, and I bought some of their “toe in the higher end” speaker cables while here in Berlin... but I also chose to get them at the priced-per-metre rate, and have the dealer do the termination since the saving for that was substantial versus a factory-dressed set... and I don’t have faith that I would hear a difference between two well-made soldering jobs. (Yes, I bought blind, after only reading and talking about it; yes, I know that’s not what one should normally do; yes, I have little or no recourse if something goes wrong when I get home... but after all, it’s a well made wire, and I’m not expecting it to sound bad in some absolute sense!)

For folks who want to invest their own time and skill on something, such as making their own cables, it’s far easier to discount the cost of someone else’s labour (or, as I did above, to choose a less expensive path between two professional options). The entire discussion of the rationale for the new Uniti Core is a fantastic example of just this sort of dividing line; some people simply cannot understand how, since it doesn’t appeal or seem necessary to them, that it even makes sense that anyone could prefer, and spend money, on such a thing. Others are very happy to pay for a developed solution that meets their needs and expectations (or will do once kinks get worked out...)

Thanks for staying with me this long, if you have! I don’t know what my own upper price point is for anything, especially in advance of checking it out personally. I do know that there are many nice things (watches, restaurants, cars, holidays, stereo equipment and more) that are simply beyond my means even if they would be worth the price to me. I expect there are also other nice things that others choose to spend their money on that I could afford but choose not to. I think I have made good choices for myself; more good than bad, I hope. Some I’ve made completely on my own, and some have been informed by the experiences and advice of others including forum friends. I wish the same for others, and I wish that those who find themselves arguing or preaching or criticizing or denouncing or whatever other exaggerated thing happens when we type at each other instead of talking with one another would just take a moment to breathe deeply and ask whether their contribution will advance the dialogue or simply add to the noise. 

Fearing I have done the latter rather than the former, I offer the best compliments of the season to any and all who read this!

Regards alan

A question re mains cables: if they make such a difference, and if Naim feels the Powerline is the solution, why don’t Naim power supplies have captive cables (with Powerline 13A plug, or other for different markets), thereby removing the additional socket/plug coupling at the back of the unit?

And if concern was what if a better plug we’re to come along, then the answer would simply be that the upgrade would be a change of plug, or better still use a direct cable outlet on the mains not a socket, removing the need for any plug/socket pairing... (with due attention to wiring regs for safety)

I just looked at the In-Akoustik website:  Like Naim cables I can truly see how they justify their prices (which actually aren't that high by the standards of most cable makers).

No Objection here.

And you're right about the physics:  Essentially there's good sensible engineering principles at work there, and that's not common among most cable makers.  What they are doing isn't the only viable engineering solution, but their choice of construction and materials is sensible and consistent with their particulate approach.  I'm quite impressed by that.