Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

analogmusic posted:

Yes very few cables are worth the money, many are a rip-off.

It's important to listen with an open mind - but I am not myself in an open mind to listen to a Chord Music cable at 3,800 GBP/meter.

The entry level Vertere interconnects are reasonably priced, and are a revelation to my ears.

I don't like the stupid prices of SL cables either but I do like their abilities. 

Are the prices really ‘stupid’? Is £6,500 for a 555PS, which is just a metal box with a big transformer and a few capacitors any less ‘stupid’. Does it really matter how much things cost, so long as the purchaser thinks they provide a worthwhile improvement? It is the dismissal of things without hearing them for oneself that is ‘stupid’. 

I moved house recently and had to purchase two 9 metre runs of NacA5 as a result of my new room and speaker positioning. That was expensive enough for me. I didn't bother comparing any other cables as I had always used NacA5 and been happy with it. My only gripe was the price had increased nearly 4 fold compared to the last time I purchased some admittedly over 20 years ago!!

Mr Frog posted:

Indeed

Computer designed circuit boards, integrated circuits, discrete regulators, toroidal transformers and all sorts of other electronic wizardry will make a huge difference to sound quality - based on the components and how they are put together.

But, let’s be totally logical .... a length of copper wire (aka speaker cable) is a length of wire ..... see sense and save your cash!

 

And what wires do you use Mr Frog?

you need good cables not expensive ones. The Naim standard Lavenders and Snaics do the job.

I agree with many of the comments. Boxes, cables, hundreds, thousands...it’s entirely personal choice. It’s true the standard wires do the job, just as a Supernait does the same job as a Statement, but I think we’d all agree, on a different level. 

nigelb posted:

In answer to your question, yes, but in the right system that is transparent enough to make the most of transparent cables.

Interesting - I don't doubt that cables can make a difference. For me. there is so much marketing puff in the cable game that it's not very clear (standard LCR parameters aside) why Naim Superlumina (for example) would be more 'transparent' sounding than basic copper speaker cable. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

analogmusic posted:

Yes very few cables are worth the money, many are a rip-off.

It's important to listen with an open mind - but I am not myself in an open mind to listen to a Chord Music cable at 3,800 GBP/meter.

The entry level Vertere interconnects are reasonably priced, and are a revelation to my ears.

I don't like the stupid prices of SL cables either but I do like their abilities. 

Are the prices really ‘stupid’? Is £6,500 for a 555PS, which is just a metal box with a big transformer and a few capacitors any less ‘stupid’. Does it really matter how much things cost, so long as the purchaser thinks they provide a worthwhile improvement? It is the dismissal of things without hearing them for oneself that is ‘stupid’. 

 I've heard all the SL cables extensively.

Why did you assume otherwise? Bit puzzled, really, Nigel to be honest.... ???

Robiwan posted:

you need good cables not expensive ones. The Naim standard Lavenders and Snaics do the job.

they do a job, yes.

But the Vertere entry level is considerably better than the Lavender. I  did like the lavender a lot, but it's no match for the vertere.

james n posted:

nigelb posted:

In answer to your question, yes, but in the right system that is transparent enough to make the most of transparent cables.

Interesting - I don't doubt that cables can make a difference. For me. there is so much marketing puff in the cable game that it's not very clear (standard LCR parameters aside) why Naim Superlumina (for example) would be more 'transparent' sounding than basic copper speaker cable. 

it's a completely different cable construction/configruation, different connectors.

The NACA is still very good, but the SL sounds much better.

analogmusic posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

analogmusic posted:

Yes very few cables are worth the money, many are a rip-off.

It's important to listen with an open mind - but I am not myself in an open mind to listen to a Chord Music cable at 3,800 GBP/meter.

The entry level Vertere interconnects are reasonably priced, and are a revelation to my ears.

I don't like the stupid prices of SL cables either but I do like their abilities. 

Are the prices really ‘stupid’? Is £6,500 for a 555PS, which is just a metal box with a big transformer and a few capacitors any less ‘stupid’. Does it really matter how much things cost, so long as the purchaser thinks they provide a worthwhile improvement? It is the dismissal of things without hearing them for oneself that is ‘stupid’. 

 I've heard all the SL cables extensively.

Why did you assume otherwise? Bit puzzled, really, Nigel to be honest.... ???

I was mixing two posts together: your assertion that the prices of SL are ‘stupid’, and posts dismissing things out of hand. I don’t think the prices are ‘stupid’ personally. They are certainly high, but people don’t have to buy them. I don’t doubt that you have tried them, and it’s fine to decide that the price is prohibitive. It’s another matter altogether to dismiss things as ‘snake oil’. 

Unsurprisingly the 'snake oil' argument has raised its head. To that I'll say I don't trust marketing but I do trust my ears.  

MDS posted:

Unsurprisingly the 'snake oil' argument has raised its head. To that I'll say I don't trust marketing but I do trust my ears.  

Spot on.

For me, in my system, in my room and to my ears...YES

Finkfan posted:

I agree with many of the comments. Boxes, cables, hundreds, thousands...it’s entirely personal choice. It’s true the standard wires do the job, just as a Supernait does the same job as a Statement, but I think we’d all agree, on a different level. 

Excellent analogy.

The xpsdr does the job when paired with the 272, and no doubt very well but how about the snake oil of a 555ps???

I’m looking forward to splashing some on next year! 

When I sit down in front of my loudspeakers, lights low and a superb recording ready to play, I want to hear real musicians, in a real acoustic space. I want to hear what’s makes them so good at what they do, which means I want perfect timing,  all the nuances of the way they create music and all the emotions that result.  What I don’t want is hi-fi, 2 speakers pounding out bass, midrange and treble frequencies. I don’t want to hear the speakers as a source of sound. I want real musical instruments, suspended in space, filling my room or even beyond. I want to hear where the musicians are standing relative to one another and I want to hear the timbre and character of their instruments.

All this is not easy to achieve, but when it is, the effect is magical. Shivers down your spine, a tear in the eye or a catch of breath in your throat at the amazing beauty of the music. 

In my experience this can be achieved with less than state of the art equipment but what is does require is incredibly careful set-up and attention to detail. Anything that smears detail or dynamics or distorts phase, frequency or amplitude will destroy the illusion. The system will still make music but the inner beauty, meaning and emotion of the music is lost. But where does it go?  It’s stIll there, in the signal, its just that the system fails to resolve it. And if its there, but its not resolved, then by definition it becomes part of some other component of the music. Something that does not belong... The musical signal is changed by the addition, becomes distorted.

When you upgrade cables and you substitute something ‘superior’ what is actually happening?  In essence 2 things; more information and detail (phase, frequency and dynamics) are being passed along the cable unscathed, and by that very fact you get more detail AND less distortion out of the other end. Listen carefully whenever you upgrade a cable or a component....the increase in detail is ALWAYS accompanied by a reduction in ‘hardness’, ‘harshness’, ‘hash’, noise, or however you describe the distortion. Why? Because all that distortion is, is the previously unresolved components of the music, added to other parts of the music, which effectively distorts (changes) it. 

So in a cable, what could cause this loss of detail?  Poor conductor quality, poor conductor geometry, poor termination, poor quality terminals, dielectric interaction with the signal as it passes along the conductors,  external interference like static, RFI, AC,  mismatched capacitance, inductance, impedance, poor soldering or crimping of connectors, poor routing of cables etc. 

I, as much as the next man wish I could connect together my system with inexpensive cable. The problem however seems  to be that in order to achieve the appropriate quality conductors, with optimised geometry, the appropriate screening, the least damaging, most neutral dielectric, high enough quality terminals and quality manufacturing, the price of research and development, raw materials and low batch size, high quality manufacturing dictates that the cable required to achieve the musical results I demand costs quite a bit more to produce than ‘the cheapest possible’ alternative .

Cables are a lot like eating out.  Why pay £100 for fine dining, when a portion of fish and chips can be had for £7?  You can also see why someone who has never tried or has no appreciation for great food may conclude that paying £100 for a meal when a more filling meal can be had for £7 is indeed a waste of money. 

So if your goal is a full belly and sound belting out of 2 speakers, cables are indeed a waste of money

Gazza posted:

No , I still have the nice PMC chap words ringing in my head at Audio Show East; he said their cables were about £2 a metre, and the system sounded great.

Indeed rumour had/has it that PMC were won’t to use 6mm Van Damme cables at trade shows.....

But isn’t it what you hear rather than what you choose to pay that counts?

YGMMV 

DR J

I have removed some posts. A certain maker of cables has expressly told us that they neither want their name nor their products mentioned or discussed on here. Some of you obviously know who this is but persist in trying to discuss the products - please desist.  Naim do not wish for trouble, so please respect Naim's position here.  Thank you.

wenger2015 posted:

Darke Bear posted:

No - but already done it with full SL loom and agree cables are often worth more than a box upgrade, if you get the right cables.

DB.

I notice from your profile, you have an absolutely superb system, so congrats on that.

You certainly would not be doing your system justice without the full loom, as you rightly say, it’s all about getting the right cables.

And you can get very close with the 282 with the same cables and same attention to system setup as DB.

Phil

somehow cable threads always bring out heated discussion 

But as good as NACA 5 and the old Lavender interconnects are, there is more to be had.

Hungryhalibut makes a good argument, few people, if any dispute the value and price of a Naim power supply, it is now almost universally accepted.

But somehow the SL cables bring about much heated discussion, and much discomfort.

I think it is much more difficult for Naim  - as the standards for Naim are that much more higher.

For a cable to bear the Naim logo, it must absolutely be better than the accepted Naim standards NACA5 and Lavender/HI-line in one crucial area - timing, engagement, boogie, and/or rhythm.

This is a far more difficult than it seems on the surface. 

If Roy George and the Naim CEO aren't happy with the timing performance, the cable simply doesn't get manufactured and released to the market.

The R&D spend must have been huge. 

analogmusic posted:

somehow cable threads always bring out heated discussion 

But as good as NACA 5 and the old Lavender interconnects are, there is more to be had.

Hungryhalibut makes a good argument, few people, if any dispute the value and price of a Naim power supply, it is now almost universally accepted.

But somehow the SL cables bring about much heated discussion, and much discomfort.

I think it is much more difficult for Naim  - as the standards for Naim are that much more higher.

For a cable to bear the Naim logo, it must absolutely be better than the accepted Naim standards NACA5 and Lavender/HI-line in one crucial area - timing, engagement, boogie, and/or rhythm.

This is a far more difficult than it seems on the surface. 

If Roy George and the Naim CEO aren't happy with the timing performance, the cable simply doesn't get manufactured and released to the market.

The R&D spend must have been huge. 

And I have some swampland in Florida for sale, if you're interested.  

Be civil please.

I've deleted my comments to keep the discussion civilised.

At the end of the day NOBODY is forcing anyone to buy any expensive cables

it's only a discussion after all ?

Richard Dane posted:

I have removed some posts. A certain maker of cables has expressly told us that they neither want their name nor their products mentioned or discussed on here. Some of you obviously know who this is but persist in trying to discuss the products - please desist.  Naim do not wish for trouble, so please respect Naim's position here.  Thank you.

Apologies Richard - understood. 

Blackmorec posted:

When I sit down in front of my loudspeakers, lights low and a superb recording ready to play, I want to hear real musicians, in a real acoustic space. I want to hear what’s makes them so good at what they do, which means I want perfect timing,  all the nuances of the way they create music and all the emotions that result.  What I don’t want is hi-fi, 2 speakers pounding out bass, midrange and treble frequencies. I don’t want to hear the speakers as a source of sound. I want real musical instruments, suspended in space, filling my room or even beyond. I want to hear where the musicians are standing relative to one another and I want to hear the timbre and character of their instruments.

All this is not easy to achieve, but when it is, the effect is magical. Shivers down your spine, a tear in the eye or a catch of breath in your throat at the amazing beauty of the music. 

In my experience this can be achieved with less than state of the art equipment but what is does require is incredibly careful set-up and attention to detail. Anything that smears detail or dynamics or distorts phase, frequency or amplitude will destroy the illusion. The system will still make music but the inner beauty, meaning and emotion of the music is lost. But where does it go?  It’s stIll there, in the signal, its just that the system fails to resolve it. And if its there, but its not resolved, then by definition it becomes part of some other component of the music. Something that does not belong... The musical signal is changed by the addition, becomes distorted.

When you upgrade cables and you substitute something ‘superior’ what is actually happening?  In essence 2 things; more information and detail (phase, frequency and dynamics) are being passed along the cable unscathed, and by that very fact you get more detail AND less distortion out of the other end. Listen carefully whenever you upgrade a cable or a component....the increase in detail is ALWAYS accompanied by a reduction in ‘hardness’, ‘harshness’, ‘hash’, noise, or however you describe the distortion. Why? Because all that distortion is, is the previously unresolved components of the music, added to other parts of the music, which effectively distorts (changes) it. 

So in a cable, what could cause this loss of detail?  Poor conductor quality, poor conductor geometry, poor termination, poor quality terminals, dielectric interaction with the signal as it passes along the conductors,  external interference like static, RFI, AC,  mismatched capacitance, inductance, impedance, poor soldering or crimping of connectors, poor routing of cables etc. 

I, as much as the next man wish I could connect together my system with inexpensive cable. The problem however seems  to be that in order to achieve the appropriate quality conductors, with optimised geometry, the appropriate screening, the least damaging, most neutral dielectric, high enough quality terminals and quality manufacturing, the price of research and development, raw materials and low batch size, high quality manufacturing dictates that the cable required to achieve the musical results I demand costs quite a bit more to produce than ‘the cheapest possible’ alternative .

Cables are a lot like eating out.  Why pay £100 for fine dining, when a portion of fish and chips can be had for £7?  You can also see why someone who has never tried or has no appreciation for great food may conclude that paying £100 for a meal when a more filling meal can be had for £7 is indeed a waste of money. 

So if your goal is a full belly and sound belting out of 2 speakers, cables are indeed a waste of money

Agree with these comments.

Maybe as mentioned it’s opinion based on affordability, ‘I don’t like it because I can’t afford it’ so it must be snake oil....????