Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

Innocent Bystander posted:

You are absolutely right, however what I surmised was that where people do set an arbitrary limit, consciously or otherwise, they may very well do that  differently by cable function, e.g. based on perception of likelihood of cable having a significant effect - and clearly that applies to Analogmusic, who seems to have a limit of £100 for mains cable but £1000s for interconnects and/or speaker cables - hence my question to all - do you have a cost limit above which you would not even consider a cable, even if not formally voiced even to yourself, and dies it vary by cable function (if so, what for which)?

well the Naim power line at 600 GBP is as far as I'm willing to go.

Maybe the Vertere cables at 2000 GBP is better, and ChordMusic at 5000 GBP even more, but since there is a 600 GBP Naim designed and engineered powerline good enough for the Naim statement, well it's good enough for my NAP 250.

Dave J and Nick Lees got another 2 test track for you : Emimem  -  Superman.

and the one that sold me on Naim many years ago : 50 Cent in da club, and Nickelback  Follow you home.

All these 3 songs got strong bass notes (in the case of Nickelback - awesome kick drum intro) and that's what I look for, the bass timing, flow and articulation easily shows up weaknesses in cables.

even though I'm a big fan of vertere, the Hi-line threw a massive knockout punch to the Vertere Pulse B, it just didn't have the awesome and mighty bass articulation of the hi-line.

As I have stated in other threads I have recently replaced my Chord Sig.Tuned Aray and Powerline cables with the standard supplied Naim cables.  Purchased new these cables would cost over £2,000 their standard replacements a couple of hundred if purchased separately and have I missed the Chord Cables? No I have not? Can I notice differences without them? No not really, I mean when I installed them especially the Hiline there was what seemed to be an instant improvement but after a while I think the added signal that the cable let pass through was just volume not really an improvement in sound.

To my mind these cables at best stop very slight signal degradation but wether or not your prepared to pay large sums for those subtle differences is a choice for you all to make.  Myself I would think very carefully never say never is a sensible saying but it would be after my system was at full capacity and then if I'm a bit flush and want to spend a lot of money to subtley tweak the sound Naim have taken 40 years and many millions to develop then maybe I might try again but I would to think not.

Would Naim have developed these very expensive cables if there was not all ready a market set up by the likes of Chord and Nordost? Anyway it is your money and your system to do with as you please. 

and the SL also whipped and walked all over the Chord Super Array for bass in the same way.

It depends on what is being measured and what is of importance.

For me a Naim system without awesome tight, controlled and articulated bass is not performing as Naim and Roy George intended.

Of course it's not the only thing that I listen for, but this is where the Naim cables dominate - in the words on another forum member "in a not so subtle way"

Incidentally Steve Sells who designed the statement, uses 2 (!!) Naim N-subs at home with his SBL's.

Huge posted:

French Rooster posted:

hey Huge,

i couldn’t believe before that ethernet optimizing is worthwhile: i thought that bits are just bits and didn’t understood why have a dedicated switch vs the router or good lans or lan isolation from noise.  But i tried and i am convinced today, no way back possible.

lan cables have the same importance as analog or digital cables....try and you will be surprised!

Yes, I have been doing this for more than a year, but I used normal electronic design principles to optimise the RFI control, rather than buying fancy and very expensive cables.  Having previously designed my own HiFi amps, it didn't surprise me at all.

Incidentally I also take a similar approach to control of RFI with both interconnect and mains cables, and then, by ear, optimise the solution to my particular circumstances (my house is exposed to quite a lot of externally sourced RFI).

you have adopted different solutions, and it seems to work positively for you.  There are a lot of alternatives to isolate noise in the ethernet chain.  But maybe there is not only a question of   noise....better lans may transfer better the signal too.  

French Rooster posted:

Huge posted:

French Rooster posted:

hey Huge,

i couldn’t believe before that ethernet optimizing is worthwhile: i thought that bits are just bits and didn’t understood why have a dedicated switch vs the router or good lans or lan isolation from noise.  But i tried and i am convinced today, no way back possible.

lan cables have the same importance as analog or digital cables....try and you will be surprised!

Yes, I have been doing this for more than a year, but I used normal electronic design principles to optimise the RFI control, rather than buying fancy and very expensive cables.  Having previously designed my own HiFi amps, it didn't surprise me at all.

Incidentally I also take a similar approach to control of RFI with both interconnect and mains cables, and then, by ear, optimise the solution to my particular circumstances (my house is exposed to quite a lot of externally sourced RFI).

you have adopted different solutions, and it seems to work positively for you.  There are a lot of alternatives to isolate noise in the ethernet chain.  But maybe there is not only a question of   noise....better lans may transfer better the signal too.  

My signal transfer is fine thank you:
On the wired LAN it's zero dropped packets over 12 months.
On the WLAN (i.e. WiFi) it's about 500 dropped packets over the same time.

As my NAS and streamer are both on the wired LAN, I can't improve the signal as it's already 100%.

Yes, there are a lot of "alternatives to isolate noise in the Ethernet chain", and they don't need expensive 'audiophile' cables, just good engineering principles, which are a LOT cheaper.

A solution to all this controversy would be for Naim to replace all the standard cabling that comes free with components with Lumina. Is cabling part of the amplification process or not?

No cabling's not part of the amplification process, cables are passive!

Unlike many 3rd party "high end" cables, SL cables have a significantly high manufacturing cost, and would considerably increase the selling price of the black boxes.

(OK, well the Statement and 500 series may be able to absorb the cost without too much increase, but it would have a substantial effect on the cost of the components in the other series).

Huge posted:

French Rooster posted:

Huge posted:

French Rooster posted:

hey Huge,

i couldn’t believe before that ethernet optimizing is worthwhile: i thought that bits are just bits and didn’t understood why have a dedicated switch vs the router or good lans or lan isolation from noise.  But i tried and i am convinced today, no way back possible.

lan cables have the same importance as analog or digital cables....try and you will be surprised!

Yes, I have been doing this for more than a year, but I used normal electronic design principles to optimise the RFI control, rather than buying fancy and very expensive cables.  Having previously designed my own HiFi amps, it didn't surprise me at all.

Incidentally I also take a similar approach to control of RFI with both interconnect and mains cables, and then, by ear, optimise the solution to my particular circumstances (my house is exposed to quite a lot of externally sourced RFI).

you have adopted different solutions, and it seems to work positively for you.  There are a lot of alternatives to isolate noise in the ethernet chain.  But maybe there is not only a question of   noise....better lans may transfer better the signal too.  

My signal transfer is fine thank you:
On the wired LAN it's zero dropped packets over 12 months.
On the WLAN (i.e. WiFi) it's about 500 dropped packets over the same time.

As my NAS and streamer are both on the wired LAN, I can't improve the signal as it's already 100%.

Yes, there are a lot of "alternatives to isolate noise in the Ethernet chain", and they don't need expensive 'audiophile' cables, just good engineering principles, which are a LOT cheaper.

i recommend you just to borrow one day a high quality lan cable as audioquest diamond or chord signature tuned array and see by yourself if it improves or not the sound. Just try one day.

French Rooster posted:

Huge posted:

French Rooster posted:

Huge posted:

French Rooster posted:

hey Huge,

i couldn’t believe before that ethernet optimizing is worthwhile: i thought that bits are just bits and didn’t understood why have a dedicated switch vs the router or good lans or lan isolation from noise.  But i tried and i am convinced today, no way back possible.

lan cables have the same importance as analog or digital cables....try and you will be surprised!

Yes, I have been doing this for more than a year, but I used normal electronic design principles to optimise the RFI control, rather than buying fancy and very expensive cables.  Having previously designed my own HiFi amps, it didn't surprise me at all.

Incidentally I also take a similar approach to control of RFI with both interconnect and mains cables, and then, by ear, optimise the solution to my particular circumstances (my house is exposed to quite a lot of externally sourced RFI).

you have adopted different solutions, and it seems to work positively for you.  There are a lot of alternatives to isolate noise in the ethernet chain.  But maybe there is not only a question of   noise....better lans may transfer better the signal too.  

My signal transfer is fine thank you:
On the wired LAN it's zero dropped packets over 12 months.
On the WLAN (i.e. WiFi) it's about 500 dropped packets over the same time.

As my NAS and streamer are both on the wired LAN, I can't improve the signal as it's already 100%.

Yes, there are a lot of "alternatives to isolate noise in the Ethernet chain", and they don't need expensive 'audiophile' cables, just good engineering principles, which are a LOT cheaper.

i recommend you just to borrow one day a high quality lan cable as audioquest diamond or chord signature tuned array and see by yourself if it improves or not the sound. Just try one day.

As I said before, currently the sound via the LAN is indistinguishable from the sound when the LAN is disconnected and the files are played locally from a USB stick.  If the "audiophile" LAN cable makes it sound any different, then it's actually degrading the sound quality, not improving it.

Huge posted:

No cabling's not part of the amplification process, cables are passive!

Unlike many 3rd party "high end" cables, SL cables have a significantly high manufacturing cost, and would considerably increase the selling price of the black boxes.

(OK, well the Statement and 500 series may be able to absorb the cost without too much increase, but it would have a substantial effect on the cost of the components in the other series).

That is a little difficult for me to believe as there is no precious metals in these cables.  I don't think it has a higher manufacturing cost than adding the cost of all parts you can find in a humble NAP100 among others which sell for half the price a pair of SuperLumina interconnects.

analogmusic posted:

and the SL also whipped and walked all over the Chord Super Array for bass in the same way.

It depends on what is being measured and what is of importance.

For me a Naim system without awesome tight, controlled and articulated bass is not performing as Naim and Roy George intended.

Of course it's not the only thing that I listen for, but this is where the Naim cables dominate - in the words on another forum member "in a not so subtle way"

Incidentally Steve Sells who designed the statement, uses 2 (!!) Naim N-subs at home with his SBL's.

 

What's Boy George got to do with it?

Bob thats easy hes the keeper of the Naim sound.......

Is Richard still going to be moderating this lot on 25 Dec?

i recommend you just to borrow one day a high quality lan cable as audioquest diamond or chord signature tuned array and see by yourself if it improves or not the sound. Just try one day.

 

Thing is you don’t have to go expensive per se. The $80 Ghent with right hand Metz connectors and a soldered shield loop (JSSG) sounds as good as anything AQ or Vertere. Like Huge sa’ys, also plenty of cheap things to be done on the network side. No need to spend silly money imo.

Huge posted:

French Rooster posted:

Huge posted:

French Rooster posted:

Huge posted:

French Rooster posted:

hey Huge,

i couldn’t believe before that ethernet optimizing is worthwhile: i thought that bits are just bits and didn’t understood why have a dedicated switch vs the router or good lans or lan isolation from noise.  But i tried and i am convinced today, no way back possible.

lan cables have the same importance as analog or digital cables....try and you will be surprised!

Yes, I have been doing this for more than a year, but I used normal electronic design principles to optimise the RFI control, rather than buying fancy and very expensive cables.  Having previously designed my own HiFi amps, it didn't surprise me at all.

Incidentally I also take a similar approach to control of RFI with both interconnect and mains cables, and then, by ear, optimise the solution to my particular circumstances (my house is exposed to quite a lot of externally sourced RFI).

you have adopted different solutions, and it seems to work positively for you.  There are a lot of alternatives to isolate noise in the ethernet chain.  But maybe there is not only a question of   noise....better lans may transfer better the signal too.  

My signal transfer is fine thank you:
On the wired LAN it's zero dropped packets over 12 months.
On the WLAN (i.e. WiFi) it's about 500 dropped packets over the same time.

As my NAS and streamer are both on the wired LAN, I can't improve the signal as it's already 100%.

Yes, there are a lot of "alternatives to isolate noise in the Ethernet chain", and they don't need expensive 'audiophile' cables, just good engineering principles, which are a LOT cheaper.

i recommend you just to borrow one day a high quality lan cable as audioquest diamond or chord signature tuned array and see by yourself if it improves or not the sound. Just try one day.

As I said before, currently the sound via the LAN is indistinguishable from the sound when the LAN is disconnected and the files are played locally from a USB stick.  If the "audiophile" LAN cable makes it sound any different, then it's actually degrading the sound quality, not improving it.

normally it must sound better than with usb stick!  this usb stick entry is more for convenience.   

analogmusic posted:

and the SL also whipped and walked all over the Chord Super Array for bass in the same way. 

Not in my system it didn't! 

charlesphoto posted:

i recommend you just to borrow one day a high quality lan cable as audioquest diamond or chord signature tuned array and see by yourself if it improves or not the sound. Just try one day.

 

Thing is you don’t have to go expensive per se. The $80 Ghent with right hand Metz connectors and a soldered shield loop (JSSG) sounds as good as anything AQ or Vertere. Like Huge sa’ys, also plenty of cheap things to be done on the network side. No need to spend silly money imo.

i have an nds/555dr , had before common lan cables and now audioquest vodka, with lan isolation.   I don’t think that a 300GBP/ m ethernet cable is so expensive.  Vs the common cables , i had a very significant improvement.

But as just a try, to demonstrate how effective a good lan can be , going from cheap lan to an expensive one will give a real surprise to Huge or perhaps you.  It is just for demonstration, experiment.

I have already isolated my network from noise with an optical bridge on linear ps, which dramatically improved the sound.  But adding better quality lans improved still the sound.

You say that your dy cheap hand made lan cables sound the same as audioquest diamond for example:  have you done the test by yourself?    i think you have not.  But if yes, i think you should file a patent.  No offense, just french humor.

But you are free to stay with your conviction....

tonym posted:

analogmusic posted:

and the SL also whipped and walked all over the Chord Super Array for bass in the same way. 

Not in my system it didn't! 

Nor mine.

No I personally haven’t compared to an AQ Vodka, but for the record, Ghent cables are not DIY but carefully and beautifully made, the lan cable to a design that a senior computer audiophile forum member came up with. Google and check it out. Personally any cable over $100 is out of my league - the $ would be much better spent on hardware. I do know some members on here thought an $8 Amazon Teragrand as good as an AQ Vodka on their NDS so go figure. 

Be sure the settings on your optical bridge are correct - my dip switches were set wrong and after changing the sound changed for the better dramatically, esp in the the bass. 

This is the album that really demonstrated to me SL dominating over the Sarum offering.

Just listen for yourselves.

analogmusic posted:

 

This is the album that really demonstrated to me SL dominating over the Sarum offering.

Just listen for yourselves.

Sod the cables it’s a great album!

The Strat (Fender) posted:

analogmusic posted:

 

This is the album that really demonstrated to me SL dominating over the Sarum offering.

Just listen for yourselves.

Sod the cables it’s a great album!

The Strat (Fender) posted:

analogmusic posted:

 

This is the album that really demonstrated to me SL dominating over the Sarum offering.

Just listen for yourselves.

Sod the cables it’s a great album!

Rodrigo y Gabriela y Superlumina

no offence analogmusic, just humor

Bob the Builder posted:

analogmusic posted:

and the SL also whipped and walked all over the Chord Super Array for bass in the same way.

It depends on what is being measured and what is of importance.

For me a Naim system without awesome tight, controlled and articulated bass is not performing as Naim and Roy George intended.

Of course it's not the only thing that I listen for, but this is where the Naim cables dominate - in the words on another forum member "in a not so subtle way"

Incidentally Steve Sells who designed the statement, uses 2 (!!) Naim N-subs at home with his SBL's.

 

What's Boy George got to do with it?

Roy George of Naim audio

Not the culture club one than? Generations of love got a good bass

Expensive is subjective, it might be sneak oil or not I will try to get good cables for my system, it feels good, like completing a project and I hear a very good sound from my 272/555/300

i can not say that I hear a difference with my AQ diamond but maybe there is, I just bought them beacause of “what if “ factor

if have more money I will buy the 2000£ Ethernet cables, not for better bits or better sound that I am % 100 sure of but if I can afford a what if I will

if I have a 500 setup and have the money I will buy a 30k£ chord loom maybe... why not

Somebody’s 30k is somebody’s 1k or 100£

if you ilke it and can buy it without a sacrifice form rest of the life get the best you Want

it might be placebo but who cares  if  it cures you...

Analogmusic, please give this up. No matter how you try and justify your own opinion, those of us who happen to prefer different cables to yourself will never change our opinions, nor will our views be any less relevant than yours.

Understand that each system is different and reacts in different ways to whatever one happens to introduce into it. SL interconnect was very poor in my system, Chord Super Sarum was considerably better. I've no doubt that others might find the opposite - the only important thing? There are no rules.