Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

Sorry Richard 

I'm sure I read somewhere about an Emperor a long time ago filled with such pride at the beautiful (and expensive) new clothes he bought himself.   Perhaps not only those less well off were convinced of snake oil at play here also....

Please don't fall onto the barren earth of implying a level of wealth is required to form a legitimate opinion on whether product A sounds better than product B.

Peter

northpole posted:

I'm sure I read somewhere about an Emperor a long time ago filled with such pride at the beautiful (and expensive) new clothes he bought himself.   Perhaps not only those less well off were convinced of snake oil at play here also....

Please don't fall onto the barren earth of implying a level of wealth is required to form a legitimate opinion on whether product A sounds better than product B.

Peter

As finkfan commented earlier, I’m sure the statement sounds better than the Supernait, I’ve not heard the statement but I’m very confident it’s better, and it’s probably better regardless if I’m wearing clothes whilst listening or not....

Expensive cables, are they worth the money?

No.

Oh - do people wear clothes when listening to their Hi-Fi?

Charles44 posted:

Expensive cables, are they worth the money?

No.

 

"Oh yes they are" ............... cue lots of panto "it's behind you" dialogue. 

Charles44 posted:

Expensive cables, are they worth the money?

No.

Come on Charles - don't sit on the fence.

I did warn of the impending bun fight. It always happens when posh cables are discussed on here. Don't know why.

Right, my last bun, here goes. I have moved in stages from Naim stock cables, via HiLine and a posh Chord cable (I am working on the assumption the the C word is not the banned company for discussion) to a full SL loom. Each stage involved a lengthy home demo of one cable change at a time. In my opinion, in my system, in my room, using my ears the SL alternatives provided sufficient uplift in areas that are important to me and as such demonstrated their elevated price provided VFM.

Now that is quite a logical, objective and quantitative way of appraising something that is essentially a qualitative and subjective assessment, that is an improvement in sound quality. It does however give me some comfort that I am not being ripped off and that I am likely to continue to enjoy my (some might call stupid) outlay on a few bits of wire.

Geez, just realised I am wide open with no ammo. Dives for cover yet again.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Oh - do people wear clothes when listening to their Hi-Fi?

Just going to have to do an A B test to find out.....just have to think of what to say if anyone comes into my listening room unannounced.....

wenger2015 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Oh - do people wear clothes when listening to their Hi-Fi?

Just going to have to do an A B test to find out.....just have to think of what to say if anyone comes into my listening room unannounced.....

As above, don't look now, "they're behind you" 

nigelb posted:

 

Now that is quite a logical, objective and quantitative way of appraising something that is essentially a qualitative and subjective assessment, that is an improvement in sound quality. It does however give me some comfort that I am not being ripped off and that I am likely to continue to enjoy my (some might call stupid) outlay on a few bits of wire.

That's the main thing Nigel. If you think it's worth it then it is. I think we all have the same destination but just get there in different ways

An interesting thread and it's good to read the various opinions. Thanks Wenger for starting it off. 

James

Non believers, so boring... If I hear the difference, if l hear it!, and if it gives me more pleasure and let’s me connect more emotional to the music. Its worth it.

But whatever, keep spending silly money on cartridges, dacs, streamers and amplifiers only to connect them with poor wires. Talk about wasting money..

M37 posted:

Non believers, so boring... If I hear the difference, if l hear it!, and if it gives me more pleasure and let’s me connect more emotional to the music. Its worth it.

But whatever, keep spending silly money on cartridges, dacs, streamers and amplifiers only to connect them with poor wires. Talk about wasting money..

+1

There is a post on another forum where  some people were at a cable demo, Ansuz. There is a "nonbeliever" that was in attendance. He is now a believer for what that's worth. I'm a believer in the SL IC. My own ears have confirmed that for me. I'm on the fence about SL SC. I have not heard them and still have doubts about expensive speaker cables but I do have reason to think they do make a difference. I just don't have the cash to prove or disprove that reason for now. 

northpole posted:

I'm sure I read somewhere about an Emperor a long time ago filled with such pride at the beautiful (and expensive) new clothes he bought himself.   Perhaps not only those less well off were convinced of snake oil at play here also....

Please don't fall onto the barren earth of implying a level of wealth is required to form a legitimate opinion on whether product A sounds better than product B.

Peter

It's a pity that this topic can't be discussed civilly.  I can understand that there are some who aren't convinced that cables make a difference and/or aren't inclined to pay for premium cables but too often expressing that view is insufficient. They resort to the 'snake-oil' argument thus implying that those of us with different views are stupid and gullible . There is no need for such rudeness on here.  I don't pretend to be able to tell the difference between digital photographs and those from negatives, or to discriminate between fine wines.  But I know that some people can and do. I don't feel the need to insult them just because I can't. 

MDS posted:

northpole posted:

I'm sure I read somewhere about an Emperor a long time ago filled with such pride at the beautiful (and expensive) new clothes he bought himself.   Perhaps not only those less well off were convinced of snake oil at play here also....

Please don't fall onto the barren earth of implying a level of wealth is required to form a legitimate opinion on whether product A sounds better than product B.

Peter

It's a pity that this topic can't be discussed civilly.  I can understand that there are some who aren't convinced that cables make a difference and/or aren't inclined to pay for premium cables but too often expressing that view is insufficient. They resort to the 'snake-oil' argument thus implying that those of us with different views are stupid and gullible . There is no need for such rudeness on here.  I don't pretend to be able to tell the difference between digital photographs and those from negatives, or to discriminate between fine wines.  But I know that some people can and do. I don't feel the need to insult them just because I can't. 

MDS

I completely agree with you - my use of the term was lifted from and in response to Wenger2015's posting further up the page which, if made in jest, passed completely over my head:

"Maybe as mentioned it’s opinion based on affordability, ‘I don’t like it because I can’t afford it’ so it must be snake oil....????"

I'm not sure you chose the correct post to reply to however, I do agree also that I should have bitten my tongue and refrained from responding in the first instance.

Peter

Ok, Peter. If I mis-interpreted the intention behind your post I apologise to you.  

let's not get into snake oil and try and relate what SL does.

From what I can hear it does 2 things over the Naim hi-line and Chord Chrysalis/Lavender

1) A remarkable ability to let high frequencies though - which the hi-line and Chrysalis actually constrain. Once you hear  the liquidity of the high frequencies of the SL, it is very difficult to un-hear the hi-line and chrysalis - they have a sound of their own, which imposes itself over the music. The SL doesn't add anything that isn't there, but it just lets so much more through

2) The SL also preserves the musical energy a lot more than the HL/Lavender - again not a matter of adding anything that was not there, but a matter of preserving the musical intentions, energy, emotions, soul and intentions of the music and musicians 

Of course the standard Lavender/NACA5 and Hi-line are musically very enjoyable, and one does not need to go beyond those - but if one wants more accuracy, more realism, more timbre, and enjoyment, well like everything in the Naim world, it costs money.

My opinion, my ears, YMMV.

I think there are few people who would deny that SL speaker cables make a difference to the finished sound. Likewise I suspect there are few who would argue against the contention they are 'better' than NACA5. When I demoed them they certainly outperformed my Epic Twin. My own preferences led me to Epic Reference Twin, but that's bye the bye. What I think lies at the nub of these discussions is whether or not the considerable cost per metre of some of the cables represents vfm. My view on that one is that any product is worth precisely what any individual is prepared to pay. We all recognise the black boxes and speakers the wires connect could hardly be described as bargains! I think what muddies the water is that most of the 'cheaper' speaker wires still do a very good job, unlike, perhaps, the bottom of the pile sources and amps available from the stack 'em high retailers. 

I would contend that my spending three times as much on my speaker wires has not given me an increase in audio quality proportionate to the cash involved. The fact is I chose to spend a lot of money (but substantially less than SuperLumina!), which I could afford, on maximising my listening pleasure. That same principle applies whether or not we're talking SL, Sarum, Music or the ones we're not allowed to mention. What we shouldn't be doing is wasting time, energy and emotion trying to justify how we choose to spend our cash, or persuading others our choices are better than theirs! Let's just share our experiences, make suggestions when asked, and leave it at that!

M37 posted: But whatever, keep spending silly money on cartridges, dacs, streamers and amplifiers only to connect them with poor wires. Talk about wasting money..

What are these poor wires that are being connected up with?

NACA5?

Hi Line?

Lavender? 

Tim - that’s interesting, as I’d say that the amount I have spent on swanky wires has given me an increase in quality commensurate with the the cost. I make my judgements in whether the changes make the music more real, more engaging, more natural, more emotionally involving. The two SL din to XLR leads I bought a couple of weeks ago retail for £3,258. For two bit of wire one metre long, with fancy plugs on each end, and supplied in swanky packaging. To me they make a significant improvement on the things that matter to me, and let the boxes do their thing beautifully. So to answer the OP’s question, I’d say ‘yes’. And then there’s the speaker cables, which sell for about £2,400 for a 4m pair. That’s more than I paid for my speakers! But again, they just get out of the way and let the music flood out, just like a Tetley tea bag does for the flavour.

I’m sure the OP knew very well that the thread would bring out the sort of discussion it has, and that’s great, as a bit of healthy debate is always good. 

I still can’t bring myself to go down the cable upgrade route. Thousands of pounds for a 1m length of posh looking wire just can’t be justified. The mark up is massive and I don’t like the feeling of being ripped off. 

My opinion and I have nothing else to add to this thread. 

analogmusic posted:

let's not get into snake oil and try and relate what SL does.

From what I can hear it does 2 things over the Naim hi-line and Chord Chrysalis/Lavender

1) A remarkable ability to let high frequencies though - which the hi-line and Chrysalis actually constrain. Once you hear  the liquidity of the high frequencies of the SL, it is very difficult to un-hear the hi-line and chrysalis - they have a sound of their own, which imposes itself over the music. The SL doesn't add anything that isn't there, but it just lets so much more through

2) The SL also preserves the musical energy a lot more than the HL/Lavender - again not a matter of adding anything that was not there, but a matter of preserving the musical intentions, energy, emotions, soul and intentions of the music and musicians 

Of course the standard Lavender/NACA5 and Hi-line are musically very enjoyable, and one does not need to go beyond those - but if one wants more accuracy, more realism, more timbre, and enjoyment, well like everything in the Naim world, it costs money.

My opinion, my ears, YMMV.

Having got as far as the full SL loom, I would caution against  believing that SL or any cable for that matter creates the ultimate end result. For me everything came together with double the spacing between power supplies and brain boxes after the full SL was in place. As DB has said in his Naim Torque thread, Naim advised this, but sadly do not publish detailed advice in their literature.

It does also become easier with a high end system to tell if setup or cables are not right. [@mention:71399038679995297] made some comments above which nicely describe how sound changes with mismatched components and poor setup causing quite complex sound distortions. It’s very easy to decide to change your boxes when setup is the real issue - a better power supply or power amp can provide an improvement, but it might not be the end game and may need a different setup, and you are persuaded that more time will change things.

When the setup (timing) is right the music will tell you, and it won’t matter what music either. Each box will impart a slightly different sound, but there will be something special about the music when the timing is right.

I think it is a shame that there is insufficient advise from Naim on setup and what cables are needed to optimise each level of system. 

Personally, I feel it is easier to stick with all Naim cables and if available advice.

Phil

wenger2015 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Oh - do people wear clothes when listening to their Hi-Fi?

Just going to have to do an A B test to find out.....just have to think of what to say if anyone comes into my listening room unannounced.....

I tried this, but without clothes there's a distinct tremolo effect and a bit of a clattering sound...

The shivering also makes typing difficult and the chattering of teeth is also a bit uncomfortable.

I think I'll keep clothes on.  

Huge posted:

wenger2015 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Oh - do people wear clothes when listening to their Hi-Fi?

Just going to have to do an A B test to find out.....just have to think of what to say if anyone comes into my listening room unannounced.....

I tried this, but without clothes there's a distinct tremolo effect and a bit of a clattering sound...

The shivering also makes typing difficult and the chattering of teeth is also a bit uncomfortable.

I think I'll keep clothes on.  

The question is did you cover yourself in snake oil prior to testing?....