Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

This is getting weird. Compulsive reading though! 

NIce post Filipe

i agree with you as I recently got a rack with lots of space for the components (180mm QS inspired by Hungryhalibut) and indeed I can hear exactly what you’re saying. The timing is better with each kind of music.

but still the din/xlr cable used for the 250/300/500 is ok for timing but once I heard what a SL does there was no going back

it times well but also allows the correct timbre of music to pass to the power amp as well as a huge increase in soundstage and resolution 

Depends on how you define expensive. I told a friend that a Hugo 2 was an excellent "moderately priced" DAC @ $2,000 and he thought I was nuts.

Hungryhalibut posted:

analogmusic posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

analogmusic posted:

Yes very few cables are worth the money, many are a rip-off.

It's important to listen with an open mind - but I am not myself in an open mind to listen to a Chord Music cable at 3,800 GBP/meter.

The entry level Vertere interconnects are reasonably priced, and are a revelation to my ears.

I don't like the stupid prices of SL cables either but I do like their abilities. 

Are the prices really ‘stupid’? Is £6,500 for a 555PS, which is just a metal box with a big transformer and a few capacitors any less ‘stupid’. Does it really matter how much things cost, so long as the purchaser thinks they provide a worthwhile improvement? It is the dismissal of things without hearing them for oneself that is ‘stupid’. 

 I've heard all the SL cables extensively.

Why did you assume otherwise? Bit puzzled, really, Nigel to be honest.... ???

I was mixing two posts together: your assertion that the prices of SL are ‘stupid’, and posts dismissing things out of hand. I don’t think the prices are ‘stupid’ personally. They are certainly high, but people don’t have to buy them. I don’t doubt that you have tried them, and it’s fine to decide that the price is prohibitive. It’s another matter altogether to dismiss things as ‘snake oil’. 

stupid for whom....  very cleaver for the seller, sometimes questionable for the buyer

saying as a owner of  SLs and Audioquest Diamond Ethernet....

but there is a relaxation feeling of a competition of a project even sometimes some purchases are " what if " kind ( AQ Diamond for me for example )

Blackmorec posted:

When I sit down in front of my loudspeakers, lights low and a superb recording ready to play, I want to hear real musicians, in a real acoustic space. I want to hear what’s makes them so good at what they do, which means I want perfect timing,  all the nuances of the way they create music and all the emotions that result.  What I don’t want is hi-fi, 2 speakers pounding out bass, midrange and treble frequencies. I don’t want to hear the speakers as a source of sound. I want real musical instruments, suspended in space, filling my room or even beyond. I want to hear where the musicians are standing relative to one another and I want to hear the timbre and character of their instruments.

All this is not easy to achieve, but when it is, the effect is magical. Shivers down your spine, a tear in the eye or a catch of breath in your throat at the amazing beauty of the music. 

In my experience this can be achieved with less than state of the art equipment but what is does require is incredibly careful set-up and attention to detail. Anything that smears detail or dynamics or distorts phase, frequency or amplitude will destroy the illusion. The system will still make music but the inner beauty, meaning and emotion of the music is lost. But where does it go?  It’s stIll there, in the signal, its just that the system fails to resolve it. And if its there, but its not resolved, then by definition it becomes part of some other component of the music. Something that does not belong... The musical signal is changed by the addition, becomes distorted.

When you upgrade cables and you substitute something ‘superior’ what is actually happening?  In essence 2 things; more information and detail (phase, frequency and dynamics) are being passed along the cable unscathed, and by that very fact you get more detail AND less distortion out of the other end. Listen carefully whenever you upgrade a cable or a component....the increase in detail is ALWAYS accompanied by a reduction in ‘hardness’, ‘harshness’, ‘hash’, noise, or however you describe the distortion. Why? Because all that distortion is, is the previously unresolved components of the music, added to other parts of the music, which effectively distorts (changes) it. 

So in a cable, what could cause this loss of detail?  Poor conductor quality, poor conductor geometry, poor termination, poor quality terminals, dielectric interaction with the signal as it passes along the conductors,  external interference like static, RFI, AC,  mismatched capacitance, inductance, impedance, poor soldering or crimping of connectors, poor routing of cables etc. 

I, as much as the next man wish I could connect together my system with inexpensive cable. The problem however seems  to be that in order to achieve the appropriate quality conductors, with optimised geometry, the appropriate screening, the least damaging, most neutral dielectric, high enough quality terminals and quality manufacturing, the price of research and development, raw materials and low batch size, high quality manufacturing dictates that the cable required to achieve the musical results I demand costs quite a bit more to produce than ‘the cheapest possible’ alternative .

Cables are a lot like eating out.  Why pay £100 for fine dining, when a portion of fish and chips can be had for £7?  You can also see why someone who has never tried or has no appreciation for great food may conclude that paying £100 for a meal when a more filling meal can be had for £7 is indeed a waste of money. 

So if your goal is a full belly and sound belting out of 2 speakers, cables are indeed a waste of money

Excellent post and metaphor for cables.....  thank you

Kevin Richardson posted:

Depends on how you define expensive. I told a friend that a Hugo 2 was an excellent "moderately priced" DAC @ $2,000 and he thought I was nuts.

Oh well a bmw or Porsche is a very expensive car next to an entry level car.

A Louis vitton handbag costs shit load of money compared to a nice one from any supermarket but hey ho does it stop hundreds of millions of women of aspiring for one ????

The hugo is a real game changer and allows real hi end sound for people at sensible prices compared to Louis vitton  prices that other companies charge

No purchase of expensive cables planned for now or in the future.

Signal cables can make a difference, but with source and pre combined, like in my Akurate DSM, there is no need for them. The Mogami cable from DSM to SNAXO is just fine and the Active Leads to the 200s are alternativlos. 

Regarding speaker cables I believe that getting rid of the passive crossover, ie going active, is more effective than spending the money on expensive cables. And once you are active, speaker cables for a two- or three-way speaker become prohibitively expensive.  

I like SL interconnect. But wiring up a sixpack DBL active system is loony-tunes money. I'd rather spend the money on active 808s.

I like everything SL speaker cable does, except I've never heard it time as well as NACA5. Which is fortunate, cos I have 6x5m of NACA5 and buying 6x5m of SL speaker cable would be a downgrade in my system, and I could buy active 808s instead.

analogmusic posted:

NIce post Filipe

i agree with you as I recently got a rack with lots of space for the components (180mm QS inspired by Hungryhalibut) and indeed I can hear exactly what you’re saying. The timing is better with each kind of music.

but still the din/xlr cable used for the 250/300/500 is ok for timing but once I heard what a SL does there was no going back

it times well but also allows the correct timbre of music to pass to the power amp as well as a huge increase in soundstage and resolution 

 

AM, The importance of setup including spacing is a message that everyone needs to receive and understand. So it is worth mentioning it every time someone describes a dissatisfaction that might be cured by better setup. I’m glad it has worked for you, and I thank DB for passing the message on.

I haven’t heard many types/levels of Naim system but I suspect they are all capable of something special even if some are better than others. I suspect that better wires are always going to improve the enjoyment of music even when the setup is bang-on. Hence the need for Naim to give us the benefit of their wisdom.

I don’t mind having spent the money now the system delivers, but I would if it did not. Disappointment does not do Naim’s reputation any good. I’d rather upgrade from say a 282 to a 552 because I’m prepared to pay for what it delivers rather than in the hope it will resolve an underlying disappointment.

Phil

True.  But that suspension of disbelief will be upheld only until something better and probably more expensive comes along.

TOBYJUG posted:

 

 

                                              .................................

True.  But that suspension of disbelief will be upheld only until something better and probably more expensive comes along.

And then it will sound broken and the itching will start.....

There will always be something better, but you don’t have to have them, and it’s no reason not to try better things in the first place.

It’s a good thing about Naim that they don’t change things rapidly, so SL cables are unlikely to be superseded any time soon. Chord, on the other hand, seem to change their cables more often than students change their underpants.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Oh - do people wear clothes when listening to their Hi-Fi?

Would get a bit sticky for those with leather sofas.   Especially when listening with great cables that induce sweaty balls from furious toe tapping.

TOBYJUG posted:

Would get a bit sticky for those with leather sofas.   Especially when listening with great cables that induce sweaty balls from furious toe tapping.

 

Nice... Must remember to finish my lunch before browsing the forum in future.

IMO, proper cabling arrangement and clean contacts is way more important than just spending money on cables. There may be small differences heard when using very expensive cables but saying that it makes a night and day difference could be the fruit of the imagination.

jfritzen posted:

The Mogami cable from DSM to SNAXO is just fine and the Active Leads to the 200s are alternativlos. 

 

Active Leads are fantastic. They increased the control by my Amps over the drivers dramatically. Anyone tested the relatively cheap Active Leads between a Pre-amp and Power-amp in a non-active setup?

TOBYJUG posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Oh - do people wear clothes when listening to their Hi-Fi?

Would get a bit sticky for those with leather sofas.   Especially when listening with great cables that induce sweaty balls from furious toe tapping.

One occation when vinyl is worse.

And talking of vinyl who is using SL on their analog side? I have lavender supercap to 552 and of course the standard leads for the power amp. I don't want to disturb the superb timing I have now but an increaase in scale would be welcome, which is what I heard when I had an SL CDX2 to 282 but unfortunately it didn't time as well as even a Hiline. Speaker cables will remain A5.

yeti42 posted:

TOBYJUG posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Oh - do people wear clothes when listening to their Hi-Fi?

Would get a bit sticky for those with leather sofas.   Especially when listening with great cables that induce sweaty balls from furious toe tapping.

One occation when vinyl is worse.

Err, why?

It's vital to avoid sweating so as not to further compound the already difficult problem of keeping vinyl acting as a dust magnet!

Ardbeg10y posted:

jfritzen posted:

The Mogami cable from DSM to SNAXO is just fine and the Active Leads to the 200s are alternativlos. 

 

Active Leads are fantastic. They increased the control by my Amps over the drivers dramatically. Anyone tested the relatively cheap Active Leads between a Pre-amp and Power-amp in a non-active setup?

Yup, it's essentially the same as the DIN-XLR lead, just with DINs at both ends.

Huge posted:

wenger2015 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Oh - do people wear clothes when listening to their Hi-Fi?

Just going to have to do an A B test to find out.....just have to think of what to say if anyone comes into my listening room unannounced.....

I tried this, but without clothes there's a distinct tremolo effect and a bit of a clattering sound...

The shivering also makes typing difficult and the chattering of teeth is also a bit uncomfortable.

I think I'll keep clothes on.  

Have you used REW to see what effect the different level of damping without clothes has?

And whether sharing the event with a naked partner adds or detracts from the SQ?

Eoink posted:

Huge posted:

wenger2015 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Oh - do people wear clothes when listening to their Hi-Fi?

Just going to have to do an A B test to find out.....just have to think of what to say if anyone comes into my listening room unannounced.....

I tried this, but without clothes there's a distinct tremolo effect and a bit of a clattering sound...

The shivering also makes typing difficult and the chattering of teeth is also a bit uncomfortable.

I think I'll keep clothes on.  

Have you used REW to see what effect the different level of damping without clothes has?

Its not only that. Some people ensure wide dispersion by their belly.

I'm glad folks are taking the thread seriously.  

yeti42 posted:

And talking of vinyl who is using SL on their analog side? I have lavender supercap to 552 and of course the standard leads for the power amp. I don't want to disturb the superb timing I have now but an increaase in scale would be welcome, which is what I heard when I had an SL CDX2 to 282 but unfortunately it didn't time as well as even a Hiline. Speaker cables will remain A5.

Yes, I have SL RCA to DIN on the Rega Aria phonostage and DIN to DIN on the nDAC. I started with the nDAC and then the speaker cable and finished with the DIN to XLR. They provided a noticeable improvement at each step, but the real timing benefit came when the spacing between power supplies and brain boxes was doubled. I tried HiLine on the CDX2 but SL was much better. Love my 282 now the timing is perfect. The much improved timing makes it possible to turn the volume down a bit for the reasons [@mention:71399038679995297] explained. The separation of instruments improves a lot etc.

Phil