Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

Hungryhalibut posted:

There will always be something better, but you don’t have to have them, and it’s no reason not to try better things in the first place.

It’s a good thing about Naim that they don’t change things rapidly, so SL cables are unlikely to be superseded any time soon. Chord, on the other hand, seem to change their cables more often than students change their underpants.

Not sure why Chords approach is bad? Constantly making better products, doesn’t make the older ones less good in any way.   

Changing underwear quite often is not that bad you know...

//Jonas

wenger2015 posted:

I would have thought the majority of us know are systems inside out, and would be able to recognise any cable changes especially if the cables are  of high end quality 

I am sure that you would be able to recognize a change, the question is would you be able to identify the particular cable 100% of the time?

I wonder how many of you guys with perfect hearing had ever engaged in real blind testing, handing the wife three cables and telling her: 'Honey, here are some wires; a Nordost, a Chord and a NAIM, just connect one of them to the black boxes while I am out washing the car'. And then you come back, sit in front of the speakers, play the music and Voila, you recognize each cable without ever making an error and without getting tired of washing the car over and over..

Does it really matter if someone can’t pick out a cable 100% of the time? Surely it’s about the emotional enjoyment of the music that matters, and if someone likes what a cable does, that’s all that matters. 

Thank you Nigel.  Succinctly and much more politely put than I could manage...!

Peter

Hungryhalibut posted:

Does it really matter if someone can’t pick out a cable 100% of the time? Surely it’s about the emotional enjoyment of the music that matters, and if someone likes what a cable does, that’s all that matters. 

Of course not. It matters only if you cannot pick it up at least half the times you try (I prefer 60%) because then you clearly are not able to tell the difference between the cables and you are just kidding yourself about hearing or enjoying more. 

Did you ever engage in completely blind testing of audio components?

I agree with HH 

And i think if I were to ask my wife to change cables she’d rather wash the car! 

Haim Ronen posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Does it really matter if someone can’t pick out a cable 100% of the time? Surely it’s about the emotional enjoyment of the music that matters, and if someone likes what a cable does, that’s all that matters. 

Of course not. It matters only if you cannot pick it up at least half the times you try (I prefer 60%) because then you clearly are not able to tell the difference between the cables and you are just kidding yourself about hearing or enjoying more. 

Did you ever engage in completely blind testing of audio components?

 

Never. I have no desire to. If I like what it does, I buy it. I have no desire to try to apply pseudo objectivity to something that is totally subjective. If others want to do blind tests and worry about statistics that’s fine. I’d rather be enjoying the music. 

Despite the fact the car could probably do with a wash......it’s not actually difficult to distinguish between cables.....

I have on many occasions tested boxes, cables, with Finkfan, either at home or at our dealers.... and very quickly one can work out if a cable is either better, just different or far superior then expected.....

When I finally decided on purchasing the TQ Siver Diamonds, I must have had them on dem for at least 3 or 4 weeks, and since putting the new set in you can easily determine the ups and downs of the break in process ....and especially when they reach their optimum...... 

I participated in these blind tests, and I have made the results known here over the years. I can't tell you how many times people with the belief they can pick their cable 100% of the time, only to be disappointed with the results.

I don't buy the emotional excuse, when a cable costs ten times more than another cable, and you are unable to pick which one is playing, is proof enough that cables, at best, are a poor investment at these prices.

In other words, at these prices, that cable should easily be identified 100% of the time, when in reality, based on blind testing, that's NEVER the case.

Wanting something to sound better" just because" can be an expensive mistake. Placebo effects are a powerful phenomenon!!!!

I remember when I first heard Wengers TQ interconnect. We listened with the lavender in place and then switched to the TQ. The difference was not subtle at all. I’d be able to tell between those cables in a blind test with my fingers in my ears. 

Just because some can’t hear a difference doesn’t mean no one can. And wether you can or not doesn’t matter. We may or may not agree with others purchases and preferences and that’s fine, but wouldn’t it be dull if there was only one right box, cable and speaker combo. 

badlands posted:

I participated in these blind tests, and I have made the results known here over the years. I can't tell you how many times people with the belief they can pick their cable 100% of the time, only to be disappointed with the results.

I don't buy the emotional excuse, when a cable costs ten times more than another cable, and you are unable to pick which one is playing, is proof enough that cables, at best, are a poor investment at these prices.

In other words, at these prices, that cable should easily be identified 100% of the time, when in reality, based on blind testing, that's NEVER the case.

Wanting something to sound better" just because" can be an expensive mistake. Placebo effects are a powerful phenomenon!!!!

Do you think the SN 2 is better then a 272?

Simple yes they are, BUT there's a lot of BS out there being marketed as superdupper when really its just superpooper..

What tickles me is just how desperate people are to convert others to their point of view! 

2 + 2 definitely equals 4 (at least in my simple world), but in the world of music reproduction (lo-fi, hi-fi, whatever) surely there can be no absolutes, no matter what any one thinks. If I prefer the sound of a 272 to a 552, no one can tell me I shouldn't because the 552 is 'better'. It may be comprised of higher quality components, but even 'quality' has an element of subjectivity to it.

Why do we waste so much time arguing about the choices of others? 

Finkfan posted:

 

Just because some can’t hear a difference doesn’t mean no one can. And wether you can or not doesn’t matter. We may or may not agree with others purchases and preferences and that’s fine, but wouldn’t it be dull if there was only one right box, cable and speaker combo. 

Spot on finkfan

Timmo1341 posted:

What tickles me is just how desperate people are to convert others to their point of view!

Absolutely. A psychologist would have a field day.

Not much pleasure in The Corner these days.

Three people -

Me, male, 65, inveterate fiddler, inherited left ear deafness and tinnitus, the one with the equipment, who actually listens to music most and in wider variety.

Dearly beloved, 21 years (of course), wears hearing aids, has tinnitus, music is for dancing (thus dislikes choral....), can hear the difference in cables, stands, use of a record washer.

Concert partner, female, 35, musician, has perfect pitch, can tell when something is "better", is quite happy with a 20 year old midi system.

We each value our music for different reasons, go to concerts together, expand our horizons by sharing each others choices and preferences.

But the perceived value is different, I am happy with what I have spent, know that there is more out there (e.g. I recently heard Kudos 808, loved thd depth of bass and articulation but when I got home know that I could not live with them).

Dearly beloved helped choose everything, enjoys the result but would noff commit herself to spending.

Concert partner has eiditic memory as well, hears music in her head and feels no need to go further.

We all love music and accept preferences!

Who ever changes the cables can influence the outcome by good or poor cable dressing and you would be hard pressed to double blind such a test too. Nothing to be gained I think with this methodology. Long exposure seems the most useful approach, I find there’s a limit to how long I can fool myself and if there isn’t in some cases who’s to know.

People should feel free to spend money how they want and if they hear significant benefits from costly cables then good for them. 

My problem (and it is mine not anyone else's!) is that the variation in my mood, the time of day, etc tends to swamp subtle changes. Also I'm inherently a bit of a sceptic - if I don't at least have some really credible explanation for why something SHOULD sound better then I begin to doubt any small variations I might perceive in the moment.

Over the years I've made lots of changes which to be honest I can't hand on heart say made a difference to the sound I heard (signal cable changes, star earthed power block, counterweight on my RB300, yada yada).

And then some seemingly small things have made big changes - remember changing the stands under a pair of speakers being night and day, also setting up my latest speakers  my dealer moved them only 1cm, replayed the intro to a live track and suddenly I heard a cough in the audience, I chuckled and he said "you heard that too".

I do recognise that small bits of extra information can suddenly allow the brain to resolve information in a way that just makes much more sense. The brain is a mysterious thing and we shouldn't expect everyone's to work in the same way.

Yes whatever the evidence with regard to wires, supports etc the biggest variables in hi-fi are those 2 strange things on the side of your head and what’s between them

Haim Ronen posted:

wenger2015 posted:

I would have thought the majority of us know are systems inside out, and would be able to recognise any cable changes especially if the cables are  of high end quality 

I am sure that you would be able to recognize a change, the question is would you be able to identify the particular cable 100% of the time?

I wonder how many of you guys with perfect hearing had ever engaged in real blind testing, handing the wife three cables and telling her: 'Honey, here are some wires; a Nordost, a Chord and a NAIM, just connect one of them to the black boxes while I am out washing the car'. And then you come back, sit in front of the speakers, play the music and Voila, you recognize each cable without ever making an error and without getting tired of washing the car over and over..

There are probably a few posters on here who couldn't recognise their wife from two other women without ever making an error though.

I have just read this thread title and didn't bother to read any of the comments as so many folk just don't like anyone else's cables who ever the maker unless of course its by their own items manufacturer and then of course they must be better. For myself I have been playing with cables for years and am very aware of just what they can bring or take away from a system. Just this week a friend is over from his home in Bulgaria and has bought a new mains cable from an English manufacturer and brought it over for me tryout. Due to time limits I only tried it on my preamp and from the off set it was very obvious to me and my b in l that it walked all over my 10 year old Isotech cable improving many areas but none more startling than the height it brought let alone the general improvement to imaging and the improvement to the inky blackness was also very marked. Three days later he received two more cables in the post  and I then went to my b in l's for a listen in his system (its a newer version of mine). We tried one at first on his preamp and then the others on his two power amps and my God then things really changed. At the end we reverted to his usual cables and the only thing I can say is oh dear! I am not going to go into what and how etc but I left that night feeling just how can I afford at least 8 of these incredible cables, sell the wife? Nah she's far too good a cook for that !

They retail at about £500 each so thats not going to happen but I know my b in l has ordered three! The make by the way is Black Rhodium Stream and is an upgraded  version of a present cable.  

Bryce Curdy posted:

Haim Ronen posted:

wenger2015 posted:

I would have thought the majority of us know are systems inside out, and would be able to recognise any cable changes especially if the cables are  of high end quality 

I am sure that you would be able to recognize a change, the question is would you be able to identify the particular cable 100% of the time?

I wonder how many of you guys with perfect hearing had ever engaged in real blind testing, handing the wife three cables and telling her: 'Honey, here are some wires; a Nordost, a Chord and a NAIM, just connect one of them to the black boxes while I am out washing the car'. And then you come back, sit in front of the speakers, play the music and Voila, you recognize each cable without ever making an error and without getting tired of washing the car over and over..

There are probably a few posters on here who couldn't recognise their wife from two other women without ever making an error though.

That's what happens when you start with a blind date, not unlike blind cable testing ..

Having the top of the line power cable of a well known (albeit not very popular with this forum) US manufacturer kindly lent by a friend during the past few weeks there is no question about whether cables can make a marked improvement (not just "difference") ... it is purely an issue of assigning a €/$...figure to that improvement!  

DrPo posted:

Having the top of the line power cable of a well known (albeit not very popular with this forum) US manufacturer kindly lent by a friend during the past few weeks there is no question about whether cables can make a marked improvement (not just "difference") ... it is purely an issue of assigning a €/$...figure to that improvement!  

Please, don't tell me that you are listening to Nordost Odine 2. The cable was made strictly to evaluate the state of mind of loose ends audiophiles.

The main reason high quality cables are expensive is because they work.

It’s just a question of how much a person is prepared to pay for the huge improvement they bring?