Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

But “huge improvement” is ultimately a subjective judgement.  

forgive me if this violates forum rules, but I auditioned Nordost heimdall 2 mains cable. The difference was nothing but breathtaking.  “I could walk into the soundstage”

And I don’t mind the sarcasm, i know what I hear.

I have gone from a quite closed mind approach (after actually working in a Hi-Fi shop and comparing what we had there at that time) to see that the difference can be quite positive even with Naim, combined right. 

That said, choosing Naims offering is never wrong and mostly better then all the rest IMHO But not best out there if that’s what you’re looking for.

And yes, I have done the double blind test and survived it not, very hard with Chord Music though. 

Is Chord Music best? No clue, just the best I ever heard (which is plenty nowadays). But again, choosing Naim is never wrong  

Have fun

//Jonas 

Regarding the TQ Silver Diamond Speaker Cables, the improvement i would describe,  as being exceptional. 

I think the reason for many being sceptical, which I fully understand, is only because they have not heard the cables for themselves.

Haim Ronen posted:

Bryce Curdy posted:

Haim Ronen posted:

wenger2015 posted:

I would have thought the majority of us know are systems inside out, and would be able to recognise any cable changes especially if the cables are  of high end quality 

I am sure that you would be able to recognize a change, the question is would you be able to identify the particular cable 100% of the time?

I wonder how many of you guys with perfect hearing had ever engaged in real blind testing, handing the wife three cables and telling her: 'Honey, here are some wires; a Nordost, a Chord and a NAIM, just connect one of them to the black boxes while I am out washing the car'. And then you come back, sit in front of the speakers, play the music and Voila, you recognize each cable without ever making an error and without getting tired of washing the car over and over..

There are probably a few posters on here who couldn't recognise their wife from two other women without ever making an error though.

That's what happens when you start with a blind date, not unlike blind cable testing ..

I really am not sure, actually I am sure,  that what I read here is at all correct. The fact that I might not know what cable is swapped is not the point but the fact that an improvement or even a non improvement can be heard is. Personally I am not really interested in views that are basically saying i have no idea what I am hearing or similar is totally wasted on me. I know what I hear and that is all that matters to me, If folk do not hear the same things then thats fine. Being a musician means I know I have a good ear and my system is way good enough to hear any changes I make. My only problem is I do not have a bottomless pocket but that is the way for many of us.

A few years ago I had a chat with a member of the Naim workforce  who did not agree that cables made much or any difference but only a couple of years later Naim themselves brought out improved but more expensive cables but that doesn't count? Of course the new cables were better and although I have never experienced an A/B experiment I know I would hear any differences. I agree not all cables are worth bothering with, Chord Crimson and Linn Blacks really are not very good when compared to their more expensive siblings and that some cables though better are not worth their price. It all depends on our pockets, hearing and systems or whether we can justify their cost as to whether we buy any of them. 

I think the improvements I heard on Thursday evening were worth every penny of £1500 but sadly for me I don't have enough of them so I will have to put up with my cheaper versions. Now where that cd of Fiddler on the Roof?

Haim Ronen posted:

DrPo posted:

Having the top of the line power cable of a well known (albeit not very popular with this forum) US manufacturer kindly lent by a friend during the past few weeks there is no question about whether cables can make a marked improvement (not just "difference") ... it is purely an issue of assigning a €/$...figure to that improvement!  

Please, don't tell me that you are listening to Nordost Odine 2. The cable was made strictly to evaluate the state of mind of loose ends audiophiles.

Happy to oblige. Indeed, I will not.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

But “huge improvement” is ultimately a subjective judgement.  

Of course it is. As is “small” improvement, “no” improvement, “deterioration” or “better PRAT”. 

I have a one those white Sarum Super Aray cables between my CD555 and 552.  It greatly elevates my CDP compared to my Verdier turntable, which is a pretty swell setup.   The TT uses a Naim Hiline from the Superline.    I have been a cable skeptic but the benefit at my house is perceptible.   All it takes is money and  I have not waded in too deep into the cable river.  It may not be real but you can definitely hear the difference.  

Skip posted:

The TT uses a Naim Hiline from the Superline.  

Skip, if you haven't tried it I'd recommend taking the Hiline out and replacing it with the lowly 4-5 lavender for a while. I was surprised to find I preferred the lavender after running a Hiline for a year in a Nait XS/Stageline/FCXS/RP6 system. Granted, lower level gear than yours, but I found the Hiline's refinement detracted from vinyl's already "smooth" presentation. Too much plumping and sophistication from the Hiline. The lavender restored some welcome grit, energy and organic presence to the vinyl.

OTOH, I always preferred the Hiline on my CDP.

Joe - Richard Dane made exactly that point elsewhere a few days ago.  

Cables are absolutely worth it.  Or not.  It depends.

The cable that seems to make the biggest difference in my setup is the turntable’s RCA interconnect to the phono stage. Simply stated, some are just quieter than others. Less noise equals better dynamics. The quietest I’ve found to date was very affordable, and came from YT.

Next up is the digital source’s interconnect. I’ve engaged Mrs. “Golden Ears” Hook as my blind test subject on many occasions. Several years back, she confirmed my subjective impressions and picked a HiLine over Lavender. A couple of years ago, she did the same with SL over HiLine. She was able to tell them apart 100% of the time, and described very clearly what she was listening for and heard. Doubt I could do as well, so I focus more on subjective, longer-term listening.

Just for fun, my dealer is sending me a demo 5M length of SL speaker cable to try. Don’t really feel like spending the money right now, as right now I’m busy throwing some dough at refurbishing a 1960 Thorens TD-124 Mk I. But will keep an open mind, and repeat the blind test for SL speaker cable if I like what I hear, and before I lean too far towards purchasing.

Hook posted:

as right now I’m busy throwing some dough at refurbishing a 1960 Thorens TD-124 Mk I. 

Hey Hook, hope you are well.  Not sure if you read any hi-fi magazines but Art Dudley of Stereophile  is a vintage audio/hands-on enthusiast who has a Thorens deck and has done several things to it over the past few years.  In the current issue (December) he is trying out a new tonearm.  If you search Stereophile site for Art Dudley and his column "Listening" he has probably done 4 or 5 columns the past few years about a Thorens deck.  Hope that is of interest.  regards, Jeff A

I'm kind of in the camp of "at best they don't subtract", but I do think they can change the presentation in a way that "seasons to taste" and therefore are at the discretion of the chef, so to speak.

I like trying different cables, even making them. I tend to sense that what they alter is the timing and dynamics, and that affects the presentation of spatiality and that in turn can affect my assessment of impact, tone and the density of the sound at the listening position. I don't often feel like detail is lost or gained, just moved forward or back or even out, in the presentation as though dynamics are more affected than detail. As soundstage grows, impact, density and prat seems to diminish, but music that can be enhanced by larger soundstages, such as classical, improves. To me, if you have the scratch, what the hell, why not play around, especially if you can borrow them from a local dealer or some outfit like the Cable Co. I don't have the scratch, so my playground is much smaller, but even in my circumscribed sphere I have preferences and favorites.

Jeff Anderson posted:

Hook posted:

as right now I’m busy throwing some dough at refurbishing a 1960 Thorens TD-124 Mk I. 

Hey Hook, hope you are well.  Not sure if you read any hi-fi magazines but Art Dudley of Stereophile  is a vintage audio/hands-on enthusiast who has a Thorens deck and has done several things to it over the past few years.  In the current issue (December) he is trying out a new tonearm.  If you search Stereophile site for Art Dudley and his column "Listening" he has probably done 4 or 5 columns the past few years about a Thorens deck.  Hope that is of interest.  regards, Jeff A

Hi Jeff -

Am hanging in there, and hope you are too!

Have been following Art's adventures in Thorens-land for a while, and he is part of why I took an interest. Ditto for Tony and other vintage enthusiasts over on PFM. Was also inspired by the pics of Richard Dane's Garrard 401. Had been browsing our local Craig's List for quite some time, and finally came across what I thought was a bargain: a nice, one-owner - Dad and son - all-original early s/n deck in excellent condition, and just a few miles from my home.  Am now awaiting packing materials from Greg at Thorens Pros in Nashville, and then it's off to be mechanically restored to like-new condition.  He promises pictures of the process, so if there's an interest here, I could start a thread.

The modern Swissonair arm looks interesting, but I am going to see how the original Ortofon RMG-212 that came with the deck performs. It has an excellent reputation, and is heavy enough to handle an SPU if I go in that direction.

ATB.

Hook

Hook posted:

Jeff Anderson posted:

Hook posted:

as right now I’m busy throwing some dough at refurbishing a 1960 Thorens TD-124 Mk I. 

Hey Hook, hope you are well.  Not sure if you read any hi-fi magazines but Art Dudley of Stereophile  is a vintage audio/hands-on enthusiast who has a Thorens deck and has done several things to it over the past few years.  In the current issue (December) he is trying out a new tonearm.  If you search Stereophile site for Art Dudley and his column "Listening" he has probably done 4 or 5 columns the past few years about a Thorens deck.  Hope that is of interest.  regards, Jeff A

Hi Jeff -

Am hanging in there, and hope you are too!

Have been following Art's adventures in Thorens-land for a while, and he is part of why I took an interest. Ditto for Tony and other vintage enthusiasts over on PFM. Was also inspired by the pics of Richard Dane's Garrard 401. Had been browsing our local Craig's List for quite some time, and finally came across what I thought was a bargain: a nice, one-owner - Dad and son - all-original early s/n deck in excellent condition, and just a few miles from my home.  Am now awaiting packing materials from Greg at Thorens Pros in Nashville, and then it's off to be mechanically restored to like-new condition.  He promises pictures of the process, so if there's an interest here, I could start a thread.

The modern Swissonair arm looks interesting, but I am going to see how the original Ortofon RMG-212 that came with the deck performs. It has an excellent reputation, and is heavy enough to handle an SPU if I go in that direction.

ATB.

Hook

Very nice, sir.  I am always interested in people doing hifi/music-related things with pictures and personal journeys.  I think it would be a great thread if Richard concurs and you have the time..

Back to the thread topic here.  Sorry to the OP for the quick diversion.

Clemenza posted:

I'm kind of in the camp of "at best they don't subtract", but I do think they can change the presentation in a way that "seasons to taste" and therefore are at the discretion of the chef, so to speak.

I like trying different cables, even making them. I tend to sense that what they alter is the timing and dynamics, and that affects the presentation of spatiality and that in turn can affect my assessment of impact, tone and the density of the sound at the listening position. I don't often feel like detail is lost or gained, just moved forward or back or even out, in the presentation as though dynamics are more affected than detail. As soundstage grows, impact, density and prat seems to diminish, but music that can be enhanced by larger soundstages, such as classical, improves. To me, if you have the scratch, what the hell, why not play around, especially if you can borrow them from a local dealer or some outfit like the Cable Co. I don't have the scratch, so my playground is much smaller, but even in my circumscribed sphere I have preferences and favorites.

For me that's a very interesting post: I'm also in the camp of  "at best they don't subtract".

However I do think that some cables subtract by blurring details from the signal, in the same way that some cables blur the micro-contrasts that allow one to distinguish subtle instrumental timbres, some blur the micro-dynamics that bring life to the music (PRaT), and some blur the subtle tonal clues that allow the brain to sense distance.

Personally I'm not too bothered by Left / Right sound-stage (however despite this, in my system in my system I've still controlled the reflections that cause the sound-stage to extend wider than the speakers, and I only get a little of the artefact that causes the sonic image to show variations in height).

I also build my own interconnect cables to test.  Currently I have the following DIN4 to XLR cables either in test or about to be tested...
Standard Naim cable (unbalanced)          (bettered by the Mogami W2549, so not in use)
Mogami W2549 (pseudo-balanced)          (current default cable)
Klotz MC5000 (pseudo-balanced)              (just starting testing)
Mogami W2497 (unbalanced)          (being assembled)

The most expensive of these is the last one, a pair costs £23.35 (+ a short piece of 15mm heat shrink).

Sometime ago, I experimented with some homemaid  low cost interconnects.....they were made by a self proclaimed ex scientist come genius!!!!

They turned out to be somewhat disappointing....to say the least.

Indeed, some time ago I experimented with home made interconnect (to link my home made amplifier!).  Some of them truly were awful despite "strong recommendation":  Some were just dull with no life or energy in them, from some the sound was congested and disorganised and others hid so much detail it was like listening to AM radio!  In the end I found a Belden cable that was quite good; certainly better than anything I could afford pre-built at the time.

More recently I'm using Mogami cables - a considerable improvement on the Belden.

I now have a conclusion on the Klotz MC5000 cable...  For the results, see my thread in the padded cell.

Huge posted:

Indeed, some time ago I experimented with home made interconnect (to link my home made amplifier!).  Some of them truly were awful despite "strong recommendation":  Some were just dull with no life or energy in them, from some the sound was congested and disorganised and others hid so much detail it was like listening to AM radio!  In the end I found a Belden cable that was quite good; certainly better than anything I could afford pre-built at the time.

More recently I'm using Mogami cables - a considerable improvement on the Belden.

I now have a conclusion on the Klotz MC5000 cable...  For the results, see my thread in the padded cell.

I will take a look...

The self proclaimed ex scientist come genius I was referring to apparently used the ‘dodgy doodads of cable’ ...the net result was I contributed to him stocking up his horlicks supply....

i might as well have used a coat hanger.....

wenger2015 posted:

The self proclaimed ex scientist come genius I was referring to apparently used the ‘dodgy doodads of cable’ ...the net result was I contributed to him stocking up his horlicks supply....

i might as well have used a coat hanger.....

Well if you use just one type of cable, without testing it in the actual location...     but then "as a genius" did he actually need to or did he "just know". 

Anyway, a coat hanger (well metal ones anyway, not plastic!) can work as a radio aerial!  (but a proper aerial's still better!). 

P.S.  I forgot to click the <Post> button on the reply in the padded cell, but it's there now!

Huge posted:

For me that's a very interesting post: I'm also in the camp of  "at best they don't subtract".

 

Expensive cables do subtract from your bank account, always..

The 'sense and sensibility' question should be what portion of the total cost off a system should be dedicated to cables.

Haim Ronen posted:

Huge posted:

For me that's a very interesting post: I'm also in the camp of  "at best they don't subtract".

 

Expensive cables do subtract from your bank account, always..

The 'sense and sensibility' question should be what portion of the total cost off a system should be dedicated to cables.

I seem to recall my original dealer, many years ago suggested it should be a third of your total cost.

My best investment, by far, is the USB cable. If you still believe in bits are bits I’m afraid digital hifi is not for you.

Yes, the USB cable only transmits the signal, but finding one that is doing so with the least amount of signal loss or interference makes an astonishing difference to the rest of the system.

My interconnects and speaker cables made a big difference for sure but the USB truly made my system amazing.

So cables don’t add magic snake oil making your amplifier run better, but they let you hear things that already in you system, previously unheard.

that’s my conclusion 

M37 posted:

 

So cables don’t add magic snake oil making your amplifier run better, but they let you hear things that already in you system, previously unheard.

that’s my conclusion 

 

 

That’s it exactly