Expensive Cables. Are they worth the Money?

Thanks Wenger2015

Huge posted:

Clemenza posted:

I'm kind of in the camp of "at best they don't subtract", but I do think they can change the presentation in a way that "seasons to taste" and therefore are at the discretion of the chef, so to speak.

I like trying different cables, even making them. I tend to sense that what they alter is the timing and dynamics, and that affects the presentation of spatiality and that in turn can affect my assessment of impact, tone and the density of the sound at the listening position. I don't often feel like detail is lost or gained, just moved forward or back or even out, in the presentation as though dynamics are more affected than detail. As soundstage grows, impact, density and prat seems to diminish, but music that can be enhanced by larger soundstages, such as classical, improves. To me, if you have the scratch, what the hell, why not play around, especially if you can borrow them from a local dealer or some outfit like the Cable Co. I don't have the scratch, so my playground is much smaller, but even in my circumscribed sphere I have preferences and favorites.

For me that's a very interesting post: I'm also in the camp of  "at best they don't subtract".

However I do think that some cables subtract by blurring details from the signal, in the same way that some cables blur the micro-contrasts that allow one to distinguish subtle instrumental timbres, some blur the micro-dynamics that bring life to the music (PRaT), and some blur the subtle tonal clues that allow the brain to sense distance.

Personally I'm not too bothered by Left / Right sound-stage (however despite this, in my system in my system I've still controlled the reflections that cause the sound-stage to extend wider than the speakers, and I only get a little of the artefact that causes the sonic image to show variations in height).

I also build my own interconnect cables to test.  Currently I have the following DIN4 to XLR cables either in test or about to be tested...
Standard Naim cable (unbalanced)          (bettered by the Mogami W2549, so not in use)
Mogami W2549 (pseudo-balanced)          (current default cable)
Klotz MC5000 (pseudo-balanced)              (just starting testing)
Mogami W2497 (unbalanced)          (being assembled)

The most expensive of these is the last one, a pair costs £23.35 (+ a short piece of 15mm heat shrink).

I don't know about you, Huge, but I think my curiosity with cables may stem from the thought that I may not have heard the best, so maybe I've never heard what no subtraction sounds like. What then is my reference, especially considering how things can change from component to component depending on each's own particular electrical properties. I find most of my DIY cables and many of the cables I purchased over the years have been in the ballpark, so it seems that there isn't any absolute reference past a certain point, it is a bit like seasoning to taste and that makes the cable experimentation interesting.  Like you, I've had a lot of cable experiments that weren't worth the time. I almost don't mind them instantly sounding bad, at least that's definite and may eliminate a complicated construction from future experimentation. For me, there's nothing worse than spending a couple of hours on a design that sounds interesting and when I change out my current cables the new design sounds...the same 

I have to say that overall I've heard enough differences in cables that it explains the sheer volume of cables offered these days. There's definitely a lot of snake oil and none of us knows for sure when suggestibility is taking over, but when you think about the amount of combinations of different components you can put together, then this or that cable in a certain component connection can very possibly become the difference between good and magic for someone. I haven't made a lot of cables, but I've made enough of them that I can appreciate the time spent tinkering with a given design. Some designs with intricate winding constructions that I've experimented with, redoing them multiple ways have offered slight variations in presentation with each iteration, suggesting that even more experimentation should be done with merely the construction of the same length of the same wire, never mind the additional variables like connectors, insulation and so on.

Haim Ronen posted:

Huge posted:

For me that's a very interesting post: I'm also in the camp of  "at best they don't subtract".

 

Expensive cables do subtract from your bank account, always..

The 'sense and sensibility' question should be what portion of the total cost off a system should be dedicated to cables.

True that Haim, but everybody has a different bank account. If someone has Statement level products, who's to tell that person that a $10,000 cable is too much for their $250,000 system? That person is likely wearing a watch that costs more than my system. I'm much lower down the food chain and even at my SN2 level, non-audio people think I'm nuts. Financially speaking, they are absolutely right. It's within the context of expensive cable discussions that one appreciates Max's post about leaving. Most people find what Max has found: a phone and a pair of earbuds play music just fine and do it without neurosis.

I personally don't think cables should be a percentage of total system cost because I wouldn't want to exclude the possibility that a cheap homemade cable may just be the magic maker, even in a Statement system. I've had a few combinations where a very inexpensive simple DIY cable sounded fantastic, so I stopped there. But I admit that the reverse may be true also. Some expensive cables may make some systems sound better.  I wouldn't want to make someone feel like a fool because he bought the cable that made his system sound better to him, even if that cable costs more than my car. That's just sour grapes talk.

I like Naim's approach. They've already done the experimentation and listening to come up with cables they feel represent their product best and ship those products with those cables to reviewers who will rank their product against competition, so their standard cables are the default selection in my opinion. There are differences though, to my ear, that justify experimenting with other cables for personal preference if nothing else, so I tinker when I have the time and I'm in the mood.  

Huge posted:

However I do think that some cables subtract by blurring details from the signal, in the same way that some cables blur the micro-contrasts that allow one to distinguish subtle instrumental timbres, some blur the micro-dynamics that bring life to the music (PRaT), and some blur the subtle tonal clues that allow the brain to sense distance.

 

I also build my own interconnect cables to test.  Currently I have the following DIN4 to XLR cables either in test or about to be tested...
Standard Naim cable (unbalanced)          (bettered by the Mogami W2549, so not in use)
Mogami W2549 (pseudo-balanced)          (current default cable)
Klotz MC5000 (pseudo-balanced)              (just starting testing)
Mogami W2497 (unbalanced)          (being assembled)

 

I’m sure you’re correct, some cables will blur certain aspects of the music, but some cables will bring into focus certain aspects of the music. In your system from your findings it appears the mogami cables are bringing things into focus nicely, with none of the blurring.

So, a non naim cable can snap the Naim system into focus, but, the same result can be achieved by using standard Naim cables and a non Naim box, (say pre-amp). The pre-amp snaps the system into focus.

As you may remember, mogami doesn’t work in my system, (I’ve mentioned it a few times ). My system is already perfectly focused, the mogami throws it out of focus.

Clemenza posted:

Haim Ronen posted:

Huge posted:

For me that's a very interesting post: I'm also in the camp of  "at best they don't subtract".

 

Expensive cables do subtract from your bank account, always..

The 'sense and sensibility' question should be what portion of the total cost off a system should be dedicated to cables.

True that Haim, but everybody has a different bank account. If someone has Statement level products, who's to tell that person that a $10,000 cable is too much for their $250,000 system? 

Agreed. Personally, I do not enjoy things that are out of proportions and therefore I will never buy cables that cost more than my speakers, my source or my amplification. Another area where I think that a lot of NAIM owners are missing is by spending too little on their speakers proportionally to what they sink into their electronics.

As m37 has rightly said, it’s all about getting the most out of the system we have, and that is exactly what the top cables provide...

wenger2015 posted:

Back in March this year I auditioned TQ Black Diamond Speaker Cables, they turned out to be extremely impressive.

To cut a long story short I ended up, after a lengthy home audition, purchasing a Brand new set of the top of the range Silver Diamond Speaker Cables.

Although they sounded good from the start, I have experienced a few lows from time to time over the weeks and months but gradually they have just got better and better. 

It’s been approximately 6 months now and ‘Wow’.....they are altogether on an another level, truly remarkable.....

So if anyone is contemplating the possibility of treating oneself to an Xmas gift and was wondering if these High End Cables are truly worth the significant outlay, rest assured in this case, with TQ SD they most certainly are. 

The exceptional reviews are no exaggeration. (eg hi fi pig )

I personally think in our enthusiasm to upgrade the boxes it’s the Cables we often compromise on.

Cables can provide a clear conduit to maximise the performance from whatever black boxes we have.

So has anyone made plans to splash out and upgrade the cables over the festive season?

No, but I must admit, its been on my mind! 

Hence, I been Surfing the web, all of  2017.

Why Do We Need Better Cables?  Continued Innovation In Audio Equipment Drives the Need For Higher Quality Cables. 

Phil Gold Dec. 2016

We should examine the work of a bunch of pioneering guys – Peter Walker, Ivor Tiefenbrun, Julian Vereker, Bob Stuart, Mark Levinson, Dan D’Agostino, Ed Meitner, Dave Wilson, Alon Wolf and Yoav Geva. Who are these guys? What did they do to awaken the interest of Joe Reynolds (Nordost), George Cardas (Cardas Audio), Dr. Ray Kimber (Kimber Kable) and Edwin van der Kley (Siltech), leading lights in the cable industry?

By all means, if you have the time, a nice read. 

In short, my take,  the advancement in the Cable Industry is vastly superior to the Cables produced ten years ago. 

Naim’s Hi Line. 

“Today we see high bit rate streaming and downloads of high resolution audio files with more information even than the DSD standard. The high processing power of today’s chips and a greater understanding of digital processing has provided some remarkable improvements in DAC technology. You only have to look at what PS Audio and Chord do today in producing better sound for far less money than the best digital technology of a few years back. “

Now all I have to do, is hit the Lotto! LOL……

Enjoy Your Music, The Why! 

Allante93! 

Why do high end cable manufacturers not disclose any sort of measurements or specifications about their cables?

Cables undoubtedly can make a difference but whether or not it improves or degrades the sound is both objective (measurements and spec) and subjective (between the ears of the beholder).

I previously owned an expensive hifi cable that buzzed terribly if anywhere near a power cable and acted like an RFI antenna. Never again. I use mogami 2549 now that doesn't suffer such issues and sounds superb.

This thread is nearly as good, if a little less polarised and sweary, than the cable discussions that break out on PFM every couple of months or so.

I buy what sounds good and seems to offer value for money (in terms of the next step up the hi-fi ladder). Given the next purchase, were I to be allowed to consider it, is quite a jump, cables (and tables) offer me an opportunity to enhance my system.

Value for money is the big topic which gets people's backs up with all this new vouge for expensive cables.With cartridges you don't question it so much.

I was talking to a mate at the weekend who works in the HiFi industry as an importer and I asked him what the manufacturing cost of expensive cables was ?  and he replied don't ask and the mark up is massive !

That’s where a good dealer comes in.

As for specs, I wonder how many people purchase anything based on them? And how many refuse to demo any that don’t have them? I’ve found they are a rough guide at best. 

HAIM RONEN, I notice one of your posts has been removed, I know talk of expensive cables can produce strong opinions but no offence taken on my part.

Its all about healthy debate, and at the end of the day where we live can make a considerable difference to the amount various boxes or cables ect can cost us.

my dealer back in the day suggested a third of ones budget on cables, at the time I was sceptical, now I’m more of the opinion he was spot on.

The thing that bugs me with cables and 'why are things this way' is that within the amp box Naim's wiring loom is of thin strands, all well-dressed et al. But when you go external, we end up with cables of much fatter diameter etc, be these interconnects and/or speaker cables.

I opened the rear of some Focal 1037's a few years back (tall floorstanders - 5-way - terminals at the bottom) and the inside wiring was very thin (think like thin boot-lacing). So why do we run relatively thick speaker cabling to such beasts, when as soon as it hits the terminals, it's all massively  'stepped down'? It all seems a bit odd albeit I recognise that the specs and designs are this way.

I must admit that RJS's recent thread on the active ATCs and balanced outputs/cabling (in relative terms = 'cheap as chips') has really got me thinking on the economics of this hobby of ours, and where the best 'bang for your buck' can be found, especially given the challenges many of us have encountered in matching the amp/speakers/cabling package to our rooms  - albeit the domestic acceptability factor needs to be added to this too. 

fatcat posted:

Huge posted:

However I do think that some cables subtract by blurring details from the signal, in the same way that some cables blur the micro-contrasts that allow one to distinguish subtle instrumental timbres, some blur the micro-dynamics that bring life to the music (PRaT), and some blur the subtle tonal clues that allow the brain to sense distance.

 

I also build my own interconnect cables to test.  Currently I have the following DIN4 to XLR cables either in test or about to be tested...
Standard Naim cable (unbalanced)          (bettered by the Mogami W2549, so not in use)
Mogami W2549 (pseudo-balanced)          (current default cable)
Klotz MC5000 (pseudo-balanced)              (just starting testing)
Mogami W2497 (unbalanced)          (being assembled)

 

I’m sure you’re correct, some cables will blur certain aspects of the music, but some cables will bring into focus certain aspects of the music. In your system from your findings it appears the mogami cables are bringing things into focus nicely, with none of the blurring.

So, a non naim cable can snap the Naim system into focus, but, the same result can be achieved by using standard Naim cables and a non Naim box, (say pre-amp). The pre-amp snaps the system into focus.

As you may remember, mogami doesn’t work in my system, (I’ve mentioned it a few times ). My system is already perfectly focused, the mogami throws it out of focus.

 

Hi FC,

I don't think cables can actually bring anything into focus, but they can alter balance in a good or a bad way.

I don't believe that cables add quality in any area but rather they remove quality in the other areas:  This will have the same apparent effect (an unbalanced system), but the mechanism is different.  I believe cables can cause certain aspects of a system to be starkly highlighted by leaving them in focus while blurring everything else.

Incidentally have you seen my conclusions on the Klotz MC5000.  It's a good cable, it just doesn't suit my system or my personal preferences; it may suit you however.

wenger2015 posted:

HAIM RONEN, I notice one of your posts has been removed, I know talk of expensive cables can produce strong opinions but no offence taken on my part.

Its all about healthy debate, and at the end of the day where we live can make a considerable difference to the amount various boxes or cables ect can cost us.

my dealer back in the day suggested a third of ones budget on cables, at the time I was sceptical, now I’m more of the opinion he was spot on.

Hi Wenger,

I believe that the 1/3 of the price for cables is only 'spot on' because of the hugely excessive mark-ups on cables all the way down the distribution chain.

My 'near high end' cables between a 272 and a 300DR cost £23.35 for the pair (it'd be £33.00 for a 1m pair).
They're built using using silver plated connectors and a sophisticated dual concentric LCOFC (Neglex) cable insulated with cellular PTFE.

Huge posted:

wenger2015 posted:

HAIM RONEN, I notice one of your posts has been removed, I know talk of expensive cables can produce strong opinions but no offence taken on my part.

Its all about healthy debate, and at the end of the day where we live can make a considerable difference to the amount various boxes or cables ect can cost us.

my dealer back in the day suggested a third of ones budget on cables, at the time I was sceptical, now I’m more of the opinion he was spot on.

Hi Wenger,

I believe that the 1/3 of the price for cables is only 'spot on' because of the hugely excessive mark-ups on cables all the way down the distribution chain.

My 'near high end' cables between a 272 and a 300DR cost £23.35 for the pair (it'd be £33.00 for a 1m pair).
They're built using using silver plated connectors and a sophisticated dual concentric LCOFC (Neglex) cable insulated with cellular PTFE.

Yes, no doubt the mark up is high, but equally so with the Black boxes, although buying nearly all of my boxes new, thanks to a great dealer I’ve managed to save a small fortune, but no doubt he has still made a reasonable profit 

wenger2015 posted:

HAIM RONEN, I notice one of your posts has been removed, I know talk of expensive cables can produce strong opinions but no offence taken on my part.

Its all about healthy debate, and at the end of the day where we live can make a considerable difference to the amount various boxes or cables ect can cost us.

my dealer back in the day suggested a third of ones budget on cables, at the time I was sceptical, now I’m more of the opinion he was spot on.

I removed it myself because I felt that I was going over the same ground again and I did not feel like arguing.

My dealer, very long time ago, when I purchased my system, was making fun of third party cables and power chords. Times changed and I am sure that he is offering these days at least the better wires from NAIM. By the way, he is a sound engineer who did a lot of the recordings for the NAIM  label and teaches it in college so he is not just a guy selling equipment. During all my annual visits to the store we discussed recordings and audio gear but he never brought up the possibility of an upgrade through cables, probably because my system is so basic that there were other more 'urgent' ways that could be done to improve it.

I tried an interconnect once, bought a Nordost Red Dawn from the manufacture with a DIN to DIN termination. It couldn't be more different sounding than the chord which came with the NAIM player. The Nordost cable was much more transparent, 'faster', more detailed and open in the highs, making strings music ravishing. On the other hand, the Chord sounded warmer, more rounded, human voices were fuller and overall the presentation was less fatiguing. In other words, I was fully aware (as well as friends who came to listen) right from the start of the big differences between the two.

I went from swapping cables back and forth to compare specific recordings to leaving each of them connected for weeks at the time to see how I got used to them (I still have both but I only use the Chord). It is during these long periods that I would have instances where I played some music and was not able to identify which cable was in use without looking behind the boxes. I don't have the worst ear or memory in the world but we just get used to the sound and that is why I was questioning your ability to recognize a particular cable 100% of the time. If you can, then naturally they are much more important to you.

So, I am not principally against cables, well aware that they change the sound, just like anything else: speakers, electronics, racks and room treatment. The question is where the best improvement lies in the context of a particular system and budget, that's all.

Enjoy your system and cables and much more importantly the music! 

Haim

Well after due consideration my expensive (£23.35) cables are definitely worth it, and they're staying in my system!

Huge posted:

Well after due consideration my expensive (£23.35) cables are definitely worth it, and they're staying in my system!

Well that puts my £54 speaker cable price to shame 

Haim Ronen posted:

Clemenza posted:

Haim Ronen posted:

Huge posted:

For me that's a very interesting post: I'm also in the camp of  "at best they don't subtract".

 

Expensive cables do subtract from your bank account, always..

The 'sense and sensibility' question should be what portion of the total cost off a system should be dedicated to cables.

True that Haim, but everybody has a different bank account. If someone has Statement level products, who's to tell that person that a $10,000 cable is too much for their $250,000 system? 

Agreed. Personally, I do not enjoy things that are out of proportions and therefore I will never buy cables that cost more than my speakers, my source or my amplification. Another area where I think that a lot of NAIM owners are missing is by spending too little on their speakers proportionally to what they sink into their electronics.

It does seem odd when speakers are the cheapest thing in the system, but I guess there too, if someone likes the voice of their speakers and just wants to tune it, it makes sense.

I do agree with detractors in that cable fascinations seem incongruous when the wire used inside the box - both the amp and the speaker - is cable you can get off the spool at Home Depot for 15 cents a foot and we've got mega constructions costing thousands hanging off the back.

I often wondered about, but never had the courage to experiment with, soldering wire straight from the amp board to the crossover in the speakers or from output board on the component to input board on the preamp. Definitely strikes one as taking the joke too far, but it's bound to have an effect removing all the connections in between. Then again, maybe all you'd end up with is a Muso in three boxes that are now hard to move around

james n posted:

Huge posted:

Well after due consideration my expensive (£23.35) cables are definitely worth it, and they're staying in my system!

Well that puts my £54 speaker cable price to shame 

James n,

What Speaker cables do you use?

Seems cable designers have got several routes to travel when putting out a cable.  Screening is one that some follow, and perhaps the most expensive to implement correctly. Once you go with one way of thinking about cables, the others seem wrong.   I Have not seen a cable that juggles all types of technology without costing an arm and a leg.

I have been itching for quite a while to try a full loom of AntiCable wires.  These eschew any sort of screening,  other than for safety on the power cables - and have had rave results on even the biggest of big systems for less than beer money

I did read an article on the anti cables sometime ago, as I understand it the cables are sleeveless, having the old fashioned telephone cord look, but good considering their price point.

As others have said, in relation to expensive cables, I think you should approach it as a percentage of your overall system value. I.e. there is little sense in spending £5k on an interconnect if your system is worth close to that in total. 

Good cables can make a difference to the sound in that they can 'change' the presentation.  Whether you prefer that is subjective.  I've tested a few expensive cables over the years, but never been in a position to own a system of significant value to warrant investing in outrageously expensive cables.  That said, I have demo'd ridiculously expensive cables in ridiculously expensive systems (£40K+), however , being honest I found it difficult to notice the 'improvement' as the sound is so clear and exceptional to start with.  There were other much older gents at the demo who claimed to hear vast improvements.  I was not convinced, as science dictates that ones senses deteriorate with age so I was inclined to conclude that it was other factors causing their excitement, but rationalised by the cables. 

I don't know, I am somewhat sceptical these days although I still think it's good practice to buy reasonable quality cabling for your system, and something that is recommended by the manufacturer like Naim for example.

I think some companies take the p*ss with their pricing of cables, as well as some of the non scientific 'evidence' they use to sell them.  I love Hi-Fi and have done for years, but sometimes you need to think logically when making an upgrade, whether it be cabling or otherwise. 

These days I have a good system and good cables, but nothing that dwarfs the value of an individual component.  For example I have one Powerline purely because I was able to purchase it at a very competitive price.  It does result in a pleasant sound from my system when connected, but again i'm not entirely convinced I would notice the difference over a standard Naim cable.  I have a few Powerline Lites too, but upon taking one apart to satisfy my curiosity, my personal assessment is that the mechanical terminations inside are no better and possibly inferior to those used in the standard MK plug commonly fitted on the standard Naim mains cables (sorry that is controversial I know).  Generally Naim products are of exceptionally high quality, and as an extremely loyal customer I was a little disappointed, however, the sound is as good so perhaps it really does not matter?  They certainly look great anyway, and I am a sucker for aesthetics

On a final note I think speaker cables and interconnects provide more of an alteration to the sound than mains upgrades.  This is only based on my own personal experience and should be viewed in such a manner.

wenger2015 posted:

james n posted:

Huge posted:

Well after due consideration my expensive (£23.35) cables are definitely worth it, and they're staying in my system!

Well that puts my £54 speaker cable price to shame 

James n,

What Speaker cables do you use?

Just basic Van Damme Blue Wenger. It's just very simple 2 core 2.5mm cable. I needed some longer length cables when i tried re-positioning my system a couple of years back and these were easily and cheaply available.

In the end the system stayed where it was and so did the Van Damme and i'd sort of forgotten about it until this thread popped up. I must get round to making up some new cables using Mogami 2972 cable which is recommended for my speakers. No rush though