250.2 to 250DR? Surprisingly, not for me, thanks.

Posted by: Dave***t on 16 November 2017

Thought I'd mention this as it's quite unusual, going by the vast majority of comments here.  And it shows, once again, the importance of listening for yourself and system balance.

I borrowed a 250DR from a dealer for a few days, essentially just to double check that I wanted to upgrade my 250.2.  A formality, of course, given that everyone knows the 250DR is far better.  I'm just picky and like to check things out.

When I first plugged the new amp in, things went roughly according to plan - the DR is clearly better.  Deeper bass extension giving a feeling of more authority, greater scale, a wider and more open sound stage, greater detail bringing out things I hadn't noticed before in well known recordings.  Lovely, I thought, I could call the dealer now and cut the home audition short.

But as I continued to listen over a couple of days, I noticed that some recordings sounded a bit harsh.  Now this I didn't expect.  Some descriptions of the 250DR versus the 250.2 mention that it seems less bloated or faster, which could indicate brighter, but then others also mention the newer amp's smoothness and how effortless it sounds.  But once I'd noticed it, it because less and less possible to ignore.  I realised that initially I'd (unintentionally?) picked pieces of music which would flatter the new amp by playing to its strengths.  This meant that I'd avoided songs which risked being marred by any extra brightness/forwardness in my system, so I started to consciously play those.  This wasn't an attempt to accentuate the negative - many of the songs in question are the kinds of personal favourites that  any system of mine simply has to be able to sound good with.  It was more a test of live-with-ability.

And in the end I had to admit that, although the 250DR is clearly better, the slightly softer presentation of the 250.2 makes more sense for me in the context of the rest of my gear.  Better to have music sounding slightly less good in some respects, but to still be drawn to listen to it, than to be amazed by certain aspects but find the overall experience offputting.

When I dropped the demo unit off back at the dealer, somewhat dejected, we spoke about it.  Although neither of us thought of it in advance, he agreed that in the context of a system with SBLs, maybe the 250.2 could be a better match.

So, maybe one day, probably after I change the speakers for something a bit softer, if I ever do.  But in the meantime I think I'll take a longer view towards a power supply for the 272.  I'm a bit too cautious to hope for any cuddly toys for christmas, so that power supply might be a long way ahead.  But I'll be happier in the meantime with my 'rubbish/broken/superseded' 250.2.

Posted on: 16 November 2017 by True Blue

Demoed on xps Dr. Similar findings. Too clinical foot tapping absent. Xps remained

Posted on: 16 November 2017 by MDS

You've illustrated well the importance of a home demo, Dave. Something that 'should' be better doesn't always please.  For quite a while I preferred the non-DR 555PS on my nDAC over the 555DRPS (I later changed my opinion but that was due to other components).  On the 250 issue. I remember demoing in store a 250DR against my then 250.2.  While I could quickly hear where the 250DR did things better, it wasn't one-sided.  For me the 250.2 lends an assertive character to some music that makes it exciting. The 250DR didn't convey that characteristic for me.  I ended up going for a 300DR anyway but I can well understand you preferring the lovely 250.2  

Posted on: 16 November 2017 by Allante93

Well, I have three 250.2s, and the thought of upgrading to the new DRs, never crossed my mind.

Faster, Clearer, quieter, all that good stuff the 250 DR bought to the table.

But the line that caught my attention, in the Article review of the 250DR, mind you it's still was derived from the 250.2.

In any event, I live in the US, accessibility of dealers with demos are far and few.

But I got lucky, a gentle pulled the trigger on a brand new 250.2, amidst the release of the brand new 250DR!

Resulted in an open box 2015 250.2, Full Warranty!

4K USD.

On powering up on rare occasions, the only difference I notice is the thud is a tighter sound, than the 2011 & 2012 250.2s.

I don't have much experience with Naim gear, but I would imagine, it's all good.

Starting with the Integrated SN, right to Naim's 552.

My System:

{Cdx2>282>Passive Tri-amped Briks.}

Furthermore, I couldn't agree more with the OP and his Dealer.

Within The Context Of One's System!

During my upgrade path, I did have the opportunity to live with Bi-Amped Briks with an 200/250.

The 250 when pushed would overheat and shut down, so I switched and put the 200 on the Bass & Mids.

No more heating problems.

In comparing the 250 on the Bass & Mids, it appeared to have a bit more headroom, but I couldn't deal with the overheating problems.

Getting long winded.

Next upgrade Active Briks!

Maybe next Christmas! LOL....

Allante93!

 

 

Posted on: 16 November 2017 by JedT

I'm one of those people who thinks balancing the electronics/speakers/room to your taste is really important and trumps questions of whether box x is better than box y.

When we rebuilt our house the new living room made my somewhat forward system hard to listen to with some music. Need a speaker change to sort it out.

 

  

Posted on: 16 November 2017 by Blackmorec

Very often its not enough to upgrade just a single component without considering its environment and supporting infrastructure. 

Here’s the problem. For a component to be an upgrade you’d expect it to do a number of things, amongst which may be:

  • Recovery of additional detail, for example instrument timbre
  • Extended frequency extremes
  • Wider/deeper soundstage
  • Added finesse, air and spaciousness
  • Increase ease
  • Added dynamic contrasts and increased micro-dynamics
  • Added insights into musicians’ skills
  • Improved pace, rhythm, timing, flow, drive
  • Greater naturalness, musicality

As you can imagine, all these additional attributes make for a more complex and therefore delicate signal. If anything downstream of that signal (cables, amps, speakers etc) does anything to disrupt it, what you end up with can be something that actually sounds worse than before the upgrade. It’s exactly why’d Naim needed to develop new cables after they’d developed the Statement electronics. 

The more resolving your system, the more important system set-up becomes in order to preserve an increasing complex and delicate signal. Adding a more resolving component that results in increased harshness is usually a sign that your system is losing that resolution by combining it with other parts of the musical signal to create a form of distortion. 

Posted on: 16 November 2017 by Name

Same findings here as well, with SL2s active the DR technology didn’t work for my ears. Yes with DR one gains scale, clarity and detail but you lost the dark, dirty soul of the music that the rather precise SL2’s needed to boogie. I ended go from non DR to DR then back to non DR. 

Yes the DR was initially impressive but after 3 months it didn’t work for me.

Posted on: 16 November 2017 by MDS
Name posted:

Same findings here as well, with SL2s active the DR technology didn’t work for my ears. Yes with DR one gains scale, clarity and detail but you lost the dark, dirty soul of the music that the rather precise SL2’s needed to boogie. I ended go from non DR to DR then back to non DR. 

Yes the DR was initially impressive but after 3 months it didn’t work for me.

I found that it was only after several DR black boxes were in the system that I properly appreciated what an improvement they made. I rejected my first DR component but later changed my mind. Rather like the SL full loom, I think there is a synergy when all the applicable boxes have DR.  

Posted on: 16 November 2017 by joe9407

while i haven't done a home demo, the 4 or so times i've heard the 250DR (with 272 and XPSDR/555DR) it didn't quite connect with me, and for the same reasons Dave and others have cited.

Posted on: 16 November 2017 by The Strat (Fender)

Well I have a 250Dr amongst all non Dr boxes.   In my opinion it is an awesome amp but I recognise that others hold a different view. 

Posted on: 16 November 2017 by analogmusic

Interesting

I went from a 200 to a 250dr but didnt notice any harshness or brightness during the last 2 years. The 250 sounds just like a naim amplifier as any I’ve heard (I’ve heard all of them) and boogies like a naim should.

My preamp is a 282 with Hicap DR

Posted on: 17 November 2017 by Huge

Yes, to sum it up in one word...   synergy.

In your case the 250DR upset the delicate balance you like in your system.  Are you going to try a 300 or 300DR?

Posted on: 17 November 2017 by Dave***t

It's interesting and sort of reassuring to find that some people had a similar impression of the 250DR, as it's not an opinion that usually seems very common.  A dissident cabal  It's also particularly interesting to hear that some have had similar experiences using DR power supplies.  Perhaps a non-DR power supply for my 272 would be better when the time comes.  Again, an audition will decide.

I'd love to try a 300/300DR, but for the time being I've gone back to university, and a 300 is too expensive to consider.  I'd budgeted for the £1k DR upgrade, but anything more will probably have to wait until I graduate/have a proper job again.  Still, it's nice to have long term aspirations.  

However, this begs a question - I've read a number of people saying that in comparison with the 250.2, the 250DR sounds more like the old 300.  So does that mean that a non-DR 300 would bring similar results, possibly even compunded by a 300DR?  Something to test out in due course, I suppose.

Blackmorec posted:

The more resolving your system, the more important system set-up becomes in order to preserve an increasing complex and delicate signal. Adding a more resolving component that results in increased harshness is usually a sign that your system is losing that resolution by combining it with other parts of the musical signal to create a form of distortion. 

Something along these lines is certainly plausible in this case.  I've done my best, but it's not as if I have an immaculately dressed setup on a fancy rack.  Another item for the long term list, to be preceded by getting a room which can actually accommodate a rack!

Posted on: 17 November 2017 by hungryhalibut

I’m one who has likened the sound of the 250DR  to that of the 300. I never liked the 250.2, finding it rather bloated in sound and quite quickly moved to a 300. But the 250DR is, to me, just great, fast and agile with no bloat. And the 300DR is just extraordinarily good. But people’s speakers, rooms and taste are all different, and one likes what one likes. All these amps are excellent in their own way. 

Posted on: 17 November 2017 by zoot
Allante93 posted:

Well, I have three 250.2s, and the thought of upgrading to the new DRs, never crossed my mind.

Faster, Clearer, quieter, all that good stuff the 250 DR bought to the table.

But the line that caught my attention, in the Article review of the 250DR, mind you it's still was derived from the 250.2.

In any event, I live in the US, accessibility of dealers with demos are far and few.

But I got lucky, a gentle pulled the trigger on a brand new 250.2, amidst the release of the brand new 250DR!

Resulted in an open box 2015 250.2, Full Warranty!

4K USD.

On powering up on rare occasions, the only difference I notice is the thud is a tighter sound, than the 2011 & 2012 250.2s.

I don't have much experience with Naim gear, but I would imagine, it's all good.

Starting with the Integrated SN, right to Naim's 552.

My System:

{Cdx2>282>Passive Tri-amped Briks.}

Furthermore, I couldn't agree more with the OP and his Dealer.

Within The Context Of One's System!

During my upgrade path, I did have the opportunity to live with Bi-Amped Briks with an 200/250.

The 250 when pushed would overheat and shut down, so I switched and put the 200 on the Bass & Mids.

No more heating problems.

In comparing the 250 on the Bass & Mids, it appeared to have a bit more headroom, but I couldn't deal with the overheating problems.

Getting long winded.

Next upgrade Active Briks!

Maybe next Christmas! LOL....

Allante93!

 

 

Hello Allante, great post just what I needed to hear about the 250.2s but recently changed to a SUperCap ( recently recapped) for a DR SC? Maybe it’s just me but everything felt more dynamic.

Posted on: 18 November 2017 by cheeselet

I have lived with and compared both. 

For me, they are similar in their drive characteristics but differ in emphasis. 

The 250DR is closer to a 200, ie, a bit leaner and more accurate than the 250.2 but I could live with either.

I couldn't take an active dislike to the 250.2 as some do though. It's fine in its own right and will suit some systems ideally. 

Posted on: 18 November 2017 by Simon-in-Suffolk

I have yet to home demo a 259DR, but listening elsewhere I haven’t been swayed. The 250.2 is a remarkably neutral and powerful and evenly balanced amp when partnered with a suitable NAC. The 202 to my ears is awful with the 250.2 sounding slow, dull and bloated, the 282 has an exciting but somewhat larger than life sound with the 250.2.. albeit the 282DR reigns this in a little. To me the 252DR just sounds wonderfully delicate, natural and fulsom  with the 250.2... must be a synergy thing... oh yes I use ATC speakers... I am a real fan of  regulated amps, they make a huge difference, and the 250.2 is one of the champs.

 

Posted on: 18 November 2017 by zoot

Yes I too have three 250.2s , 552/552ps, CDX2/XPS/Chord Saran T, NDX/XPSDR/SLs, LP12/keel,Armageddon upgrades/Linn Radical, SuperCapDR to NBLs"...Do  I go DR yet on the three amps ?  Need some help please...Hifi is terrific as is!

 

Posted on: 18 November 2017 by analogmusic

The DR amps sound quieter to me, lower noise floor. More agile.

Posted on: 18 November 2017 by The Strat (Fender)
zoot posted:

...Hifi is terrific as is!

 

Might you have answered your question?

Posted on: 18 November 2017 by The Strat (Fender)
analogmusic posted:

The DR amps sound quieter to me, lower noise floor. More agile.

Me to Analogue.   

Posted on: 19 November 2017 by Dave***t
zoot posted:

Yes I too have three 250.2s , 552/552ps, CDX2/XPS/Chord Saran T, NDX/XPSDR/SLs, LP12/keel,Armageddon upgrades/Linn Radical, SuperCapDR to NBLs"...Do  I go DR yet on the three amps ?  Need some help please...Hifi is terrific as is!

 

Alongside Strat's sentiment, I'd add that if this thread demonstrates anything, it's that you really must listen for yourself first.

If your dealer (who is presumably quite fond of you, given that load of gear) can't offer 3x250DR to try then perhaps you could try a 250DR in place of each of your 250.2s in turn? It'll fall short of telling you what the full system would sound like, but it might give you an idea of the flavour of the 250DR.

Posted on: 19 November 2017 by jon h
Allante93 posted:

My System:

{Cdx2>282>Passive Tri-amped Briks.}

........

Next upgrade Active Briks!

Phew. For a moment there I was worried...

Posted on: 19 November 2017 by zoot
Dave***t posted:
zoot posted:

Yes I too have three 250.2s , 552/552ps, CDX2/XPS/Chord Saran T, NDX/XPSDR/SLs, LP12/keel,Armageddon upgrades/Linn Radical, SuperCapDR to NBLs"...Do  I go DR yet on the three amps ?  Need some help please...Hifi is terrific as is!

 

Alongside Strat's sentiment, I'd add that if this thread demonstrates anything, it's that you really must listen for yourself first.

If your dealer (who is presumably quite fond of you, given that load of gear) can't offer 3x250DR to try then perhaps you could try a 250DR in place of each of your 250.2s in turn? It'll fall short of telling you what the full system would sound like, but it might give you an idea of the flavour of the 250DR.

Tweaking, not the drug , but HiFi..... it's an old habit, really not sure where I'm going as I say my system as is is just so damm good!, but what about the 15 year old NBLs, i opined to my dealer that Sopra 2s maybe with a 500? Yes it might be great,,,, but isn't that what I've got or is it the next quest. I've been interested in hifi for 45 years and couldn't remember all the gear I bought over the years-