Thoughts on "my system sounds broken"-and "the pompetous of love".

My two cents worth is there's (obviously) a lot of variation between the two systems and basing a comparison of them on a Steve Miller album, well-recorded and well-mastered as his music was, is somewhat futile. Different rooms, different speakers, different streamers and different amplification. If the NDS55/Statement didn't sound superior then something might be wrong with the dealer's set-up.

What's interesting to me about your description is the differences you noted in soundstage and timing. Having had the S-400s home and being familiar with Totem floor standers my experience is the two speaker brands present these factors differently. The 400s are all about clarity and impeccably tight bass, and from that comes great timing and musicality. The 400s soundstage is open side-to-side, but lacks depth and body with an aggressive mid-range and rolled-off upper end. Totems do decent deep bass, albeit nowhere as tight as a sealed box, while having better tonal balance top to bottom with more body and heft in the mid-range. Add to that Totems do soundstage height, width, depth, and imaging very well. You get a fuller, warmer, more balanced and relaxed presentation from Totems, and therein lies their musicality.

My suggestion would be to get the Forests home and try them in your system. You may not be able to live with their bass compared to the 400s, but it may be the variable that helps sort some of the factors you heard between the dealer's system and yours.

‘My system sounds broken’ is as meaningless as the 'Pompatus of love’ lyric. The feeling that one’s own system sounds small happens to many of us when we hear something from another level. I got it after hearing the S800s driven by three 500s at Naim. Actually, I think the big system sounded too big than mine sounded too small. If something is so far beyond one’s reach it doesn’t really matter anyway. 

I rarely dismiss/criticise outright but In my experience and based on 3 demos in a proper demo room I think the 400s a completely flawed design.  Harsh, unforgiving and almost impossible to listen.  Further the dealer who demo’d said he only sold 2 pairs and in both cases the purchasers moved them on.  This is not a “All Naim speakers are crap” thing I’ve heard 600s and 800s sounding good.    Try different boxes - probably hard to do in NZ but any SLs going.  If not Kudos, Neat, Dyna are the usual suspects.  

Regards,

Lindsay

it's not a valid comparison, unless you have totem forrest at home also.

One might expect a much more expensive system to sound better - otherwise why would anyone buy it? But it does not mean one's own system is broken.

it is a bit like comparing cars: a mid-price car that is reliable, gets you from A to B fast enough on real life roads, is economical enough, is comfortable, has enough luggage capacity, maybe even looks stylish compared to a supercar that does all that (maybe!) and more, maybe capable of formula 1 speeds if you can find a racetrack, or superlative levels of comfort. You know of the existence of Bentleys, Bugattis and Teslas and what they can do, but it doesn't make your Audi or BMW or Toyota any the less perfect for you and your needs and realistic desires, relegating thoughts of supermachines to dreams of lottery wins. Ditto housesor any number of other things one can posess.

However, as others have pointed out, a different system heard in a different room is no guarantee that it would sound the same in your own room, and the CD sounding so different might in part at least be down to the effect of the different rooms. And room treatment is something most people don't even consider in a home environment... (See the A short story which is also a quasi goodbye post thread. Actually, in referencing that, the thought strikes me that Max-B also uses S400s. Seems a bit of a coincidence...)

This absurd discrepancy of NAIM playing their $300,000 gear through a speaker (which I heard many times at the dealer) that costs 50 times less gives me the idea that perhaps I should acquire a Ferrari tractor to cut my grass..

but here we go again, with the cult of the amplifier - which is not surprising since Naim started as an amplifier company.

an amplifier - even Statement, is not a magician or an alchemist.

an  amplifier cannot improve on the signal provided to it by the source.

The better ones do just less damage to the signal.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Actually, in referencing that, the thought strikes me that Max-B also uses S400s. Seems a bit of a coincidence...)

My thoughts entirely.  

Haim Ronen posted:

This absurd discrepancy of NAIM playing their $300,000 gear through a speaker (which I heard many times at the dealer) that costs 50 times less gives me the idea that perhaps I should acquire a Ferrari tractor to cut my grass..

A neighbouring farmer has a Lamborghini tractor, he might be willing to sell...

Nice report KC. I had a similar experience, hearing the Statement amp at my dealer 'Signals', then (recklessly) playing the same tracks back at home, trying to convince myself my 500 series kit sounded as good. It didn't.

Just like you, I went through that analytical audio-memory comparison process which was ultimately fruitless. I simply had to wait for 'the seriously good stuff' to fade from audio-memory and I was soon back to being very happy with the sound of my system.

'The pompetus of love' has long intrigued me and you inspired me to go inter-web paddling.

Both 'Maurice' and 'pompatus' were references to his earlier song. Miller also made up the term epismetology inspired by another word used in “The Letter” pizmotality, which means “words of such secrecy that they could only be spoken to the one you loved.”

Well that clears that up then!

Good listening folks.

John.

I refuse to listen to anything I can’t afford.....

Stu

Thanks guys for your comments. My purpose in writing was mainly to discuss the phenomenon of how my stereo sounded so different after hearing the superior system, and how takes a few days for it to come back "on song" after the brain has finally "let go" of comparing it with the fancier system. I think it really is a neuro-physiological phenomenon.

I must admit I hadn't gone to the store to listen to the Statement per se, as I had heard Real Music were now an agent for Focal speakers. Alas, none were in stock. Agreed, I think listening to a Statement is not a healthy thing to do if you are not in the market for one.

As for Ovators. I really am very happy with them. If there was one thing I could improve it would be a more " up front" presentation. Perhaps this is a function of a more pronounced midrange emphasis that the Totems and who knows, maybe Focals provide. I am a Lower Hutt boy (equivalent to perhaps Atlantic city in USA or Toxteth in UK, Newcastle in Australia) and like my 70s rock with accompanying air guitar , and maybe the Ovators are a bit polite in that regard.

It was also good to get a handle on the definition of "pompatus", I could find nothing on google about it.

PS apologies to the denizens of the above cities if you are reading this!

Check out Wikipedia for Pompatus in detail.

I also have Ovator 400s. They take a while to break in, but once they do I find they’re actually quite tolerant of strange room shapes. The equivalents are now twice the price.

Returning to Steve Miller, there is a fascinating documentary about Paul Pena who wrote Jet Airliner going to the home of throat singing, Tuva. Genghis Blues. Recommended.

Yes Cat Lover, a great documentary. What a talented man, and sad how he seemed to be living in relative poverty and ill health in San Francisco. Loved the throat singing too, I had never heard this type of singing prior to seeing the documentary. I see his own version of  Jet Airliner was not released till over 25 years after he recorded it. 

KC, I wonder how the vinyl originals would sound played on a half decent record player through your set.

Chris

Hi Chris

sadly sold my 1990 Linn Sondek with Ittok in 2004. Sold the old Steve Miller albums around the same time. Doh! I am sure they would have sounded great into the 272.

Ah. Too bad! I just think some more contemporary material would perhaps have given your set more of a chance.

Maybe it's only early eighties graduates who are rich enough to buy good audio sets, hence the prevalence of DSoTM, Steely Dan, Steve Miller, Dire Straits etc. in dem rooms.

C.

Yes, looking at photos of men sitting in serried rows at hi-fi shows, one can see the glint of the lights reflecting of their balding heads and realise how many are graduates of the 70s and 80s and even earlier!

I have very little to add, safe that I have never liked a single Totem speaker in my life and that I consider the UnitiServe one of the few audibly 'inferior' designs when compared to their bigger sibling, in this case the HDX. If we are speaking of Statements and 272s with 555PSUs, the US is really a bottleneck. I have listened to the Core a few times, verifying its ripping abilities vs the 'live' replay of the CD, and my impression is that the current Naim ripping platform is on another level, even if it's called Uniti.

Christopher_M posted:

Ah. Too bad! I just think some more contemporary material would perhaps have given your set more of a chance.

Maybe it's only early eighties graduates who are rich enough to buy good audio sets, hence the prevalence of DSoTM, Steely Dan, Steve Miller, Dire Straits etc. in dem rooms.

C.

Dear Mr _M,

I would be grateful if you didn't mention Steely Dan and Dire Straits in the same context.

Cordially,

your friend Max_B

Kiwi cat posted:

Hi Chris

sadly sold my 1990 Linn Sondek with Ittok in 2004. Sold the old Steve Miller albums around the same time. Doh! I am sure they would have sounded great into the 272.

My Steve miller albums are honestly the best sounding vinyl I have , played via LP12 / 272

Even after all these years they are still quiet and crisp ...how do they do that when even some new albums start to get noisy after 5 plays??

And yes ..I do keep them all clean in my ultrasonic washer

Abracadabra!

Max_B posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Ah. Too bad! I just think some more contemporary material would perhaps have given your set more of a chance.

Maybe it's only early eighties graduates who are rich enough to buy good audio sets, hence the prevalence of DSoTM, Steely Dan, Steve Miller, Dire Straits etc. in dem rooms.

C.

Dear Mr _M,

I would be grateful if you didn't mention Steely Dan and Dire Straits in the same context.

Cordially,

your friend Max_B

What’s the implication max?

david 

Christopher_M posted:

I just think some more contemporary material would perhaps have given your set more of a chance.

Maybe it's only early eighties graduates who are rich enough to buy good audio sets, hence the prevalence of DSoTM, Steely Dan, Steve Miller, Dire Straits etc. in dem rooms.

Inquisitive thought to me. I find the 'old school' sound very different from contemporary material. Old school with greater dynamic range and far less bass compression. Contemporary material is loudness mastered and more homogenized for consistent replay via MP3 and streaming devices. The contemporary stuff has a strong emphasis on guttural bass response that can make recordings from the previous millennium sound lean in comparison. Striking a system balance between the two can be difficult and likely becomes more emphasized with higher-level gear. If your system is optimized for the sound from a Steve Miller, SD, PF, or DS album then playing something like Adele's 21 will meet with grossly overblown bass, despite any bottom-end control a Statement can confer to that situation. As much as I can call my system 'optimized', it's for recordings from the mid-1960s to the mid-1990s. Recordings from beyond that time generally play as less-refined; thick and heavy, while tending to over-excite the bass nodes in my room.