Fuse Orientation
Posted by: Filipe on 26 November 2017
I went on the factory tour organised by my dealer on 24 November. It was interesting and we had the fortune to have Jason take us round. He has a wealth of knowledge and we learned lots of interesting things. One new to me was that besides the cables being directional so are the fuses within the IEC connector and perhaps even the mains plug! Jason went as far as to say that it is a big difference. The orientation is defined by the end which has the kite mark. It’s another case of something that is not in the user guide or at least not in my Power Supplies user guide.
So if you have ever had to change the fuse take note of the orientation of the old one assuming the box is new enough to have never had its fuse changed or the glass did not shatter as mine did.
I would hate to give the wrong information so I won’t tell you which way. Perhaps Richard Dane will.
If you have ever noticed the SQ difference yourself then why not reply. Also if you have SQ issues you might like to try this one for yourself once we agree the correct orientation.
Hope this helps.
Phil
Innocent Bystander posted:Stephen Tate posted:Crikey, it's like owning a super car and then moaning how much fuel it drinks, you can't have something for nothing - it's impossible.
Not a valid comparison unless you run the supercar 24hrs a day to keep the engine warm!
True and unrealistic all the same, but it's not what I meant.
I know - but I have never held with the "if you can afford to buy then you clearly don't need to worry about the X" (cost of petrol/insurance/electricity) argument, because There is a difference between capital and revenue costs, particularly if you are astute at getting a purchase bargain.
And of course with an amp the cost - and any environmental implications of the energy used - can be reduced to a fraction by only not leaving on permanently, but simply warming up before use.
I wasn't on about cost either, I was merely pointing out that energy is energy and if one requires top performance from a top performing product then this requires energy and plenty of it.
The cost is merely a 'by-product' in the grand scheme of things. 
Innocent Bystander posted:james n posted:Filipe posted:Perhaps more believable than fuse orientation, Jason informed us that keeping a Statement system powered up adds £600/year to the electric bill!
Phil
If you can afford a Statement etc etc...
Unless you've scrimped and saved your last penny and eschewed all other luxuries to buy it secondhand...
That estimate of cost suggests quiescent current must be about 500w. Sounds like strong bias into class A. However, 500w of heat emitted continuously is likely to be an issue too, likely requiring aircon in the summer - though heating the house in winter!
Presumably unless there is a low current standby mode one just turns it off between sessions, simply turning on up to an hour before use - as indeed I do with my power amps.
However, the maths doesn't stack up:
Spec says Power ams are 100W each quiescent and pre is 55W running, sp 255W total if left fully powered - which is only about £300 PA at UK's typical 13p/unit.
And more significantly, Statement pre and power amps have standby mode of 0.3W each so 0.9W for the periods on standby, about £1 PA.
Innocent Bystander posted:Innocent Bystander posted:james n posted:Filipe posted:Perhaps more believable than fuse orientation, Jason informed us that keeping a Statement system powered up adds £600/year to the electric bill!
Phil
If you can afford a Statement etc etc...
Unless you've scrimped and saved your last penny and eschewed all other luxuries to buy it secondhand...
That estimate of cost suggests quiescent current must be about 500w. Sounds like strong bias into class A. However, 500w of heat emitted continuously is likely to be an issue too, likely requiring aircon in the summer - though heating the house in winter!
Presumably unless there is a low current standby mode one just turns it off between sessions, simply turning on up to an hour before use - as indeed I do with my power amps.
However, the maths doesn't stack up:
Spec says Power ams are 100W each quiescent and pre is 55W running, sp 255W total if left fully powered - which is only about £300 PA at UK's typical 13p/unit.
And more significantly, Statement pre and power amps have standby mode of 0.3W each so 0.9W for the periods on standby, about £1 PA.
IB
The Torroidal transformers in each Power Amplifier are massive and heavy enough to put most people on the tour off trying to lift. The Pre is pretty difficult to lift. These don’t go into standby.
I take what Jason says as gospel.
Phil
The standby details and the quiescent consumptions are taken from the specs on Naim's website. so if they actually don't have a standby mode, or if 600w is correct and relates to 1 pre and a pair of power amps then the spec is wrong and Naim needs to fix the website to avoid a risk of being found to be in breach of UK law.
They have standby modes IB - IIRC there is a little switching supply in each to allow them to sit in standby and be woken from the remote. Once the main linear supply comes up, the switcher powers off.
Who wants to let a Statement System be constantly warming up for days before being able to listen to it’s beautiful music.
Phil
What's the point of standby if it doesn't work? (And why would a power amp need to warm up for more than an hour?)
Innocent Bystander posted:What's the point of standby if it doesn't work? (And why would a power amp need to warm up for more than an hour?)
Because Naim and Jason recommend this for all their boxes. Particular emphasis was placed on this by Jason for the Statement which needs to be used as much as possible.
Phil
Filipe posted:Innocent Bystander posted:What's the point of standby if it doesn't work? (And why would a power amp need to warm up for more than an hour?)
Because Naim and Jason recommend this for all their boxes. Particular emphasis was placed on this by Jason for the Statement which needs to be used as much as possible.
Phil
I,m sure that if I had a Statement I'd use it as much as possible!
But if it churns out half a kilowatt of heat constantly (as the £600 PA suggests), or even half that as per the spec., then that can be a problem in the summer, and is not environmentally friendly: I would turn off between sessions and power up maybe an hour before wanting to use.
Not as expensive as running an immersion heater with electric radiators against a central heating system. Some are paying £20 just to run a hot bath.
TOBYJUG posted:Not as expensive as running an immersion heater with electric radiators against a central heating system. Some are paying £20 just to run a hot bath.
Typical immersion heater is 3kW. Allow an hour to heat the water for a bath. At 13p per kWh that's 39p for a bath or am I missing something?
Willy.
Filipe posted:Some of you may poke fun at it, but according to Jason they check and double check the fuse orientation at the factory because it does make a big enough difference. He sounded pretty serious to me rather than tongue and cheek. If you accept that other cables have directional properties then a fuse is just another bit of wire.The last laugh is on me if you are missing out!Phil
I have to admit that when cables are marked with a specific direction I do tend to use the recommended orientation. However, I do this only because there is no good reason not to do so. I have no expectation that I would detect a difference if I were to decide to submit to my rebellious side and swap one of the cable pairs around.
But then I am a bit of a non conformist when it comes to some of the more exotic elements of hi-fi noodling. The very thought of 'dressing' the cables at the rear of my system and making sure the wires don't touch each other or touch the floor is a little bit too much for me, I'm afraid.
I must also admit that in the late 70s, early 80s, when Jimmy Hughes and Peter Belt were the fashion, sticking some Hi-Fi Answers freebie little black triangles on a couple of my CDs to check if this really did make a difference. I really can't remember if I thought I detected a difference, but I still haven't got over the fact that I was daft enough to to try.
Hmack posted:Filipe posted:Some of you may poke fun at it, but according to Jason they check and double check the fuse orientation at the factory because it does make a big enough difference. He sounded pretty serious to me rather than tongue and cheek. If you accept that other cables have directional properties then a fuse is just another bit of wire.The last laugh is on me if you are missing out!Phil
I have to admit that when cables are marked with a specific direction I do tend to use the recommended orientation. However, I do this only because there is no good reason not to do so. I have no expectation that I would detect a difference if I were to decide to submit to my rebellious side and swap one of the cable pairs around.
But then I am a bit of a non conformist when it comes to some of the more exotic elements of hi-fi noodling. The very thought of 'dressing' the cables at the rear of my system and making sure the wires don't touch each other or touch the floor is a little bit too much for me, I'm afraid.
I must also admit that in the late 70s, early 80s, when Jimmy Hughes and Peter Belt were the fashion, sticking some Hi-Fi Answers freebie little black triangles on a couple of my CDs to check if this really did make a difference. I really can't remember if I thought I detected a difference, but I still haven't got over the fact that I was daft enough to to try.
Hmack, I can only say that I have gone along with advice from this forum and Naim. However, the best and most recent advice was from Darke Bear about increasing the separation between the poweramp PS and the preamp PS. In addition I keep the brain boxes well separated. In fact I doubled all the separations and hey presto all my music gives me a wow.
In fact on the tour Jason suggested having the PSs the other side of a wall rather than just in separate racks.
My experience is that doubling the separation gave the biggest improvement, but I have a 7 box classic system plus Rega stuff. If I had started with separation first I might have found all the other tweaks more decisive, but with careful and repeated listening to a wide range of music I decided that each change I made was better.
So now when I hear disbelief I take the view that the disbeliever is not experiencing what the system can deliver. I also think that upgradeitis is caused by thinking that better boxes will give better SQ. I’m sure they do but why not get the best from what you have first.
Having got a doctorate from Oxford in experimental nuclear physics, I am disposed towards being open minded and rigorously investigating.The laws of physics are full of surprises for those who don’t understand them. A HiFi system of many boxes is almost too complex to model. If you look at the linearity of each box you would think all boxes are equally good, but maintaining the phase of every harmonic of the original note is probably more important. It is where electromagnetic effects can wreak havoc. In a vacuum all electromagnetic waves travel at the same speed, but in conductors that is not true and hence phase shifts in the harmonics. Touching cables alters the electrical characteristics as well as making induction effects stronger between the signal from different stages of the amplification. Quite mind boggling and so complex we have to listen and formulate tips.
I assume that where there is no financial benefit such as the orientation of a fuse that Naim and their employees’ advice needs no further scrutiny.
It is rather disturbing that some people are sceptical in their reply posts rather than inquiring so as to get a better understanding. No one has asked why a fuse orientation may make a difference. I really haven’t done that experiment yet but asked if anyone had. Quite simple really. Some replies might have been more about games for all I know. It somewhat defeats the purpose of the forum though, and puts the integrity of those people in question. I have my little list!
No problem with you, Hmack, putting your point of view, and so will I. Just a matter of being courteous, which is not the case sometimes but not this.
Phil