Core Impressions?

nbpf posted:

jon honeyball posted:

you can search on here for my views a month or so back. Nothing has changed since then -- there still is no firmware that enables rip integrity checking. Metadata editing sucks. Backup/restore functions are pretty much broken. 

Rip integrity checking and backup/restore functionalities should be easily implementable. Thus, it is hard to understand why these issues are still open one year after the Core was announced. I very much doubt that the metadata editing problems will be fixed soon, however. I understand that these problems are a direct consequence of having adopted for the Core the same metadata management approach that was used in the Uniti Serve. This is based on a proprietary database with no support for user specific indexes and a very simplistic and incomplete support for classical music. Therefore, improving metadata handling would require improving the internal database. The other side of the metadata handling problem is the Core's UPnP server: if Naim decided to extend their internal database, the UPnP server would also have to be extended. Thus, improving metadata handling would require coordinated changes in three interrelated software components: the internal proprietary database, the metadata editing software and the UPnP server. Perhaps Naim simply do not have at the moment enough resorces to tackle this task.  

Should be easily implementable, but the dev team appear to have a different scale of urgency to the rest of us.

Agree that metadata will probably never be fixed.

I'm probably going to rip everything using a spare iMac and dbpoweramp. Then use a synology nas for storage. 

At that point, I have to choose whether to keep either the HDX/SSD or the Core as an SPDIF player to my NDAC/XPSDR. There is little point in keeping both. Yes, HDX.SSD is unsupported, but then it could be argued that so is Core.

Or just dump all three and use my rather lovely Mojo/Poly and set up a Roon service, thus avoiding the Naim app entirely.

jon honeyball posted:

nbpf posted:

jon honeyball posted:

you can search on here for my views a month or so back. Nothing has changed since then -- there still is no firmware that enables rip integrity checking. Metadata editing sucks. Backup/restore functions are pretty much broken. 

Rip integrity checking and backup/restore functionalities should be easily implementable. Thus, it is hard to understand why these issues are still open one year after the Core was announced. I very much doubt that the metadata editing problems will be fixed soon, however. I understand that these problems are a direct consequence of having adopted for the Core the same metadata management approach that was used in the Uniti Serve. This is based on a proprietary database with no support for user specific indexes and a very simplistic and incomplete support for classical music. Therefore, improving metadata handling would require improving the internal database. The other side of the metadata handling problem is the Core's UPnP server: if Naim decided to extend their internal database, the UPnP server would also have to be extended. Thus, improving metadata handling would require coordinated changes in three interrelated software components: the internal proprietary database, the metadata editing software and the UPnP server. Perhaps Naim simply do not have at the moment enough resorces to tackle this task.  

Should be easily implementable, but the dev team appear to have a different scale of urgency to the rest of us.

Agree that metadata will probably never be fixed.

I'm probably going to rip everything using a spare iMac and dbpoweramp. Then use a synology nas for storage. 

At that point, I have to choose whether to keep either the HDX/SSD or the Core as an SPDIF player to my NDAC/XPSDR. There is little point in keeping both. Yes, HDX.SSD is unsupported, but then it could be argued that so is Core.

Or just dump all three and use my rather lovely Mojo/Poly and set up a Roon service, thus avoiding the Naim app entirely.

you have also the innuos zenith and antipodes as servers/ rippers / nas, which seem to not have metadata problems , from what i read in different reviews....

The Core is also free of problems if you read the reviews......

Gazza posted:

The Core is also free of problems if you read the reviews......

You may be right : i just read a review by andrew everard for the core in grammophon magazine :  no problem of metadata and a lot of things improved vs the unitserve.

Perhaps a solution would be to try before the innuos or antipodes...and see how they handle the metadata with rippings and downloads.  Sound quality can be also different.

Some, on this forum, are pleased with the innuos...

The Core is free of metadata problems if you listen to main-stream, and/or classic, rock/pop. The issues come with more recent and more niche discs. The last two new release CDs I bought were in the Editor's choice feature in Gramophone magazine in two successive months, so hardly unknown, but in both cases the Core couldn't find any metadata or in fact any identity at all for either of them. This is mainstream Schubert and Dvorak, so not niche at all really. And a month or so back a new highly recommended and praised, by BBC and Gramophone Magazine, DG classical disc also  returned "unknown album".  But an old second hand Best of The Smiths album I bought for some reason or another for a couple of £ on Amazon markets was immediately recognised, album identity, cover artwork and full track info.

So my  Core metadata lookup works, but not particularly well for music I want to listen to. I almost always have to change classical album artwork and often the right artwork is the top choice when you use the Core to look it up on google. So there is a major problem with the Core's artwork lookup strategy when it's own user edit facility gives better first time results than it gets for itself.

I have said before that I don't think the folk at Naim have any interest in classical music and the metadata lookup arrangements for the Core reflect that. When I first questioned Naim on the apparent lack of metadata editing in the then still to be released Core, the answer (on the forum if you want to search it out) was basically "you won't need metadata editing because our new lookup strategy gets it right first time".

They probably believed that to be the case then. I don't know whether they really truly understand why it's so unsatisfactory for the classical music-listening chunk of their customer base now or not.

best

David

And that’s the easy stuff. Now trying changing all of the spellings of Shostakovich to your preferred one. Or Ashkenazy.  

French Rooster posted:

Gazza posted:

The Core is also free of problems if you read the reviews......

You may be right : i just read a review by andrew everard for the core in grammophon magazine :  no problem of metadata and a lot of things improved vs the unitserve.

...

I have seriously thought about canceling my Gramphone subscription after I read the Core review by Andrew Everard in the August issue: simply shameful.

David Hendon posted:

...

I have said before that I don't think the folk at Naim have any interest in classical music and the metadata lookup arrangements for the Core reflect that. When I first questioned Naim on the apparent lack of metadata editing in the then still to be released Core, the answer (on the forum if you want to search it out) was basically "you won't need metadata editing because our new lookup strategy gets it right first time".

...

Yeah, that was short after Donald Trump's election: modesty was not anymore beautiful and  throwing away classical music was likely what they meant when they said that the Core would reimagine our music collections. After one year, we see a more sober attitude, I believe. But still not much progress, I am afraid.

jon honeyball posted:

nbpf posted:

jon honeyball posted:

you can search on here for my views a month or so back. Nothing has changed since then -- there still is no firmware that enables rip integrity checking. Metadata editing sucks. Backup/restore functions are pretty much broken. 

Rip integrity checking and backup/restore functionalities should be easily implementable. Thus, it is hard to understand why these issues are still open one year after the Core was announced. I very much doubt that the metadata editing problems will be fixed soon, however. I understand that these problems are a direct consequence of having adopted for the Core the same metadata management approach that was used in the Uniti Serve. This is based on a proprietary database with no support for user specific indexes and a very simplistic and incomplete support for classical music. Therefore, improving metadata handling would require improving the internal database. The other side of the metadata handling problem is the Core's UPnP server: if Naim decided to extend their internal database, the UPnP server would also have to be extended. Thus, improving metadata handling would require coordinated changes in three interrelated software components: the internal proprietary database, the metadata editing software and the UPnP server. Perhaps Naim simply do not have at the moment enough resorces to tackle this task.  

...

I'm probably going to rip everything using a spare iMac and dbpoweramp. Then use a synology nas for storage. 

At that point, I have to choose whether to keep either the HDX/SSD or the Core as an SPDIF player to my NDAC/XPSDR. There is little point in keeping both. Yes, HDX.SSD is unsupported, but then it could be argued that so is Core.

Or just dump all three and use my rather lovely Mojo/Poly and set up a Roon service, thus avoiding the Naim app entirely.

I would not anyway rip with the Core even if I had one and if I would use it for serving my music to network players, streamers or DACs. To the best of my understanding, ripping with the Core would imply that my metadata end in a proprietary database with no support for exporting to open formats: this is not good. I do no know which software implements the SPDIF player of the Core. If it is a UPnP renderer, you could probably keep your music files on the Core, run a MinimServer instance on a networked RPi and control replay with the Naim app. This would give you optimal support for classical music and take advantage of the supposedly good SPDIF output of the Core. I do not have a Core and thus I cannot test whether this option works in practice. Alternatively, you could buy a network player (typically with USB output) and feed the nDAC via a USB to SPDIF bridge.

or use the mojo poly to stream roon. sell the ndac/xps2dr. Sell the HDX. Sell the Core. Keep CDS1 for cd playback. Sell 52, replace with Townsend Allegri. Could probably sell one of my three 6 level Fraims. 

Rip stuff as I want it for mobile use using iMac, dbpoweramp and NAS. Replicate NAS across my sites.  

nbpf posted:

I would not anyway rip with the Core even if I had one and if I would use it for serving my music to network players, streamers or DACs. To the best of my understanding, ripping with the Core would imply that my metadata end in a proprietary database with no support for exporting to open formats: this is not good. I do no know which software implements the SPDIF player of the Core. If it is a UPnP renderer, you could probably keep your music files on the Core, run a MinimServer instance on a networked RPi and control replay with the Naim app. This would give you optimal support for classical music and take advantage of the supposedly good SPDIF output of the Core. I do not have a Core and thus I cannot test whether this option works in practice. Alternatively, you could buy a network player (typically with USB output) and feed the nDAC via a USB to SPDIF bridge.

You can't install MinimServer on a Core, for me the most convenient way is a NAS to store my music and MinimServer and sell the Core ... that 's what I did ... 

Klout10 posted:

nbpf posted:

I would not anyway rip with the Core even if I had one and if I would use it for serving my music to network players, streamers or DACs. To the best of my understanding, ripping with the Core would imply that my metadata end in a proprietary database with no support for exporting to open formats: this is not good. I do no know which software implements the SPDIF player of the Core. If it is a UPnP renderer, you could probably keep your music files on the Core, run a MinimServer instance on a networked RPi and control replay with the Naim app. This would give you optimal support for classical music and take advantage of the supposedly good SPDIF output of the Core. I do not have a Core and thus I cannot test whether this option works in practice. Alternatively, you could buy a network player (typically with USB output) and feed the nDAC via a USB to SPDIF bridge.

You can't install MinimServer on a Core, for me the most convenient way is a NAS to store my music and MinimServer and sell the Core ... that 's what I did ... 

I know that Naim does not support installing MinimServer on the Core and I was not suggesting to do so, of course. But one could always run MinimServer on, e.g., a networked Raspberry Pi and setup MinimServer to serve files stored on the Core. I do not know whether this setup would allow one to see the Core as a renderer in the Naim app, however. Of course, if one does not plan to use the Core's ripping functionalities and its UPnP server, buying a Core is perhaps a little bit pointless.

Indeed! Why not buy a proper NAS instead?

Klout10 posted:

Indeed! Why not buy a proper NAS instead?

I do not know. I was just suggesting Jon a way of using his Core while avoiding some of its limitations as a UPnP server and ripping station. He seems to have an unused Core around. At the very least, he could deploy it as a NAS and perhaps even be able to use its SPDIF player with internal files served by a MinimServer instance running on a networked device. It would look great and be completely silent. Better than keeping it in a box, it seems to me.

Ahhh, okay I see ... thought you were talking about yourself

nbpf posted:

Klout10 posted:

Indeed! Why not buy a proper NAS instead?

I do not know. I was just suggesting Jon a way of using his Core while avoiding some of its limitations as a UPnP server and ripping station. He seems to have an unused Core around. At the very least, he could deploy it as a NAS and perhaps even be able to use its SPDIF player with internal files served by a MinimServer instance running on a networked device. It would look great and be completely silent. Better than keeping it in a box, it seems to me.

im not sure how or why i would deploy core "as a nas" 

jon honeyball posted:

nbpf posted:

Klout10 posted:

Indeed! Why not buy a proper NAS instead?

I do not know. I was just suggesting Jon a way of using his Core while avoiding some of its limitations as a UPnP server and ripping station. He seems to have an unused Core around. At the very least, he could deploy it as a NAS and perhaps even be able to use its SPDIF player with internal files served by a MinimServer instance running on a networked device. It would look great and be completely silent. Better than keeping it in a box, it seems to me.

im not sure how or why i would deploy core "as a nas" 

It is indeed not clear to me that it would be worth doing so but perhaps you could give it a try: the idea is to have all your files in the Core's dowloads folder. These should be visible in your network. Thus, you could run a MinimServer instance (e.g., on a Raspberry Pi connected to your network) and have it serve your files. You would see MinimServer in the Naim app.

At this point the crucial question is whether the Naim app would allow you to select the Core's SPDIF player as a renderer. If this was the case, you would have a way of taking advantage of the Core's hopefully very good SPDIF output without having to rely on the Core's own UPnP server. You would be able to use the best of the Core - its hardware - without the inconveniences of its still preliminary software.

Of course, it is possible that the SPDIF player of the Core is not actually a UPnP renderer. In this case, you still would be able to use MinimServer as a UPnP server (and the Core as a NAS) but not with the Core's SPDIF player as a renderer.

Another possibility is that you can select the SPDIF player of the Core as a renderer but that the Core's SPDIF output is not better than, say, the SPDIF output of an Allo DigiOne or of a HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro. In this case too, using the Core as a SPDIF renderer would make little sense.

If I had a Core around I would try these setups. At least you would get a picture of how the Core compares to other devices with SPDIF output, see also https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...gione-and-spdif-dacs.

Just a quick question, if one decided to choose the Core/Ndac, with MM/Audirvana acting as a renderer.

Excuse my terminology, new to Streaming.

1st

Core's s/pdif output>DC 1>282.

Where on my 282???

2nd

Core's output Usb to Ndac's input???

Last

Hard-line Cat56/Ethernet, ran from my Office to Living-room>Airport Extreme> Core's Network???

Is that correct?

It's only three outputs on the Core!

Assuming they're outputs!

Thanks In Advance!

Allante93 posted:

Just a quick question, if one decided to choose the Core/Ndac, with MM/Audirvana acting as a renderer.

....
 

I am not sure what you mean by "choosing the Core/nDAC with MM/Audirvana acting as a renderer". You can feed the nDAC through the Core's SPDIF output or through a Mac Mini (e.g., running Audirvana) connected to the nDAC via a USB to SPDIF interface. If you happen to compare these two alternatives, please post your findings.

Allante93 posted:

Just a quick question, if one decided to choose the Core/Ndac, with MM/Audirvana acting as a renderer.

Excuse my terminology, new to Streaming.

1st

Core's s/pdif output>DC 1>282.

Where on my 282???

2nd

Core's output Usb to Ndac's input???

Last

Hard-line Cat56/Ethernet, ran from my Office to Living-room>Airport Extreme> Core's Network???

Is that correct?

It's only three outputs on the Core!

With Core/NDAC, don’t need MM/Audirvana. One or the other is enough!

The Core needs to play through a DAC, you can’t connect it directly to your preamp. Use the DC1 to connect to the DAC. The Core USB is an input, not an output.

Yes, the Core needs a wired Ethernet connection, Cat5e or Cat6 is fine. This connects it to an iPhone/iPad to control it via the Naim app, and to the internet for metadata retrieval when ripping CDs. 

ChrisSU posted:

Allante93 posted:

Just a quick question, if one decided to choose the Core/Ndac, with MM/Audirvana acting as a renderer.

Excuse my terminology, new to Streaming.

With Core/NDAC, don’t need MM/Audirvana. One or the other is enough!

The Core needs to play through a DAC, you can’t connect it directly to your preamp. Use the DC1 to connect to the DAC. The Core USB is an input, not an output.

Yes, the Core needs a wired Ethernet connection, Cat5e or Cat6 is fine. This connects it to an iPhone/iPad to control it via the Naim app, and to the internet for metadata retrieval when ripping CDs. 

Just got off the phone with Apple, I think I got it!

Run a Solid Connection Cat6, I guess, from Airport Extreme to Living-Room.

1. Connect to Core Network.

2. Core's S/pdif output i.e..  DC-1 to Ndacs input.

3.  Ndac's output 4 pin din to 282's input 4 pin din.    maybe 5 pin, I don't know! 

And that's it! 

its sounds to easy, and only $2.6K USD + $2K pre-loved Ndac. 

What is the advantage of a $13K NDS?

Something about a solid connection I like. 

That's why I like my Cdx2, Solid connection right into my 282, and that's bare! 

Thanks Chrissu, I'm I on point now?

Allante93!

PS. Is the metadata on the Core, that Bad? I mostly do Jazz. 

Next question, next time, what is Roon?

Allante, I would suggest that you take a handful of Jazz CDs to your dealers and load them onto a Core. See what it’s like to browse them, try editing the metadata, and you should get an idea of what your whole collection would look like on an iPad. 

ChrisSU posted:

Allante, I would suggest that you take a handful of Jazz CDs to your dealers and load them onto a Core. See what it’s like to browse them, try editing the metadata, and you should get an idea of what your whole collection would look like on an iPad. 

Easy for you guys, 3 weeks ago I posted the thread, 300 mile trip to the Dealer.

That's when all this Core stuff entered my Brain, and you were the first to co-sign that the core was worth a shoot.

"I suspect Core/NDAC would be a great option, although to put it at 552/500 level, you might want to power it with a 555. Also, you will want an internet connection for it when you rip CDs, to add metadata, which comes from an online source. "

It's 2:00 am in the US, this is when I visit Forum!

Naim Dealers are far & few over here, that is, any that actually carry Naim gear!

Thanks to Gents like yourself, I'm getting an idea of how Streaming Audio works!

Once Again Thanks!

Allante93!

PS. I'm I on Point, with the Core Connections?

Allante93 I think you will find that the Core rips your jazz CDs fine. Editing the metadata is a pain if you have imported 1000 albums and have to go through and tweak every one, but doing whatever is needed on a CD by CD basis as you rip them is no problem. The issue with classical CDs is that exactly the same CD can be sold singly and packaged into numerous different collections, every time the record companies think of an excuse, a birthday, death, anniversary or whatever. The metadata service tends to go with the most recently published collection, and so the album name and cover art can be totally different to what you expect, like "The Greats CD 23" instead of telling you what the music actually is.

I suspect that jazz is going to be better than classical and worse than rock, but probably no problem if you are dipping and editing as you go.

best

David

Allante93 posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Allante, I would suggest that you take a handful of Jazz CDs to your dealers and load them onto a Core. See what it’s like to browse them, try editing the metadata, and you should get an idea of what your whole collection would look like on an iPad. 

Easy for you guys, 3 weeks ago I posted the thread, 300 mile trip to the Dealer.

That's when all this Core stuff entered my Brain, and you were the first to co-sign that the core was worth a shoot.

"I suspect Core/NDAC would be a great option, although to put it at 552/500 level, you might want to power it with a 555. Also, you will want an internet connection for it when you rip CDs, to add metadata, which comes from an online source. "

It's 2:00 am in the US, this is when I visit Forum!

Naim Dealers are far & few over here, that is, any that actually carry Naim gear!

Thanks to Gents like yourself, I'm getting an idea of how Streaming Audio works!

Once Again Thanks!

Allante93!

PS. I'm I on Point, with the Core Connections?

Your connections would go:

Airport - Cat5e- Core - SPDIF - DAC - 5 pin DIN - 282.

Maybe you could come to an arrangement with your dealer to buy his demo Core for you to try at home? We take a lot for granted here in the UK, where my dealer is ‘only’ 70 miles away.