NAP 200 sounds too smooth - what do I upgrade next?

You are hanging a £5,000+ amplifier off a £700 CD player, so the more you improve the amplifier the worse things get. I’d be keeping the 200 and looking for a nice CDX2. 

I have to agree with HH here; you need a much more capable and lively source.  A CDX2 sounds like just the thing to give you exactly what you want. Or, if you need a DAC then a Naim DAC has the ability to engage like few others at the price, although you'll need a good quality USB to s/pdif convertor to get the best from it if you are playing files from a computer.

Thanks HungryHalibut and Richard but I don't listen to CD's enough to justify that. Perhaps a DAC or go the 272 & Tidal route, but only if it sounds lively

272  & Tidal sounding very lively at Castle Klyde.

Thanks Klyde, that's helpful - do you mind if I ask - are you over 50? Just to gauge whether your ears may be similar to mine!

What source material do you use? I agree that you should  consider a source upgrade, but what that should be depends on what music you have on your computer. Maybe an NDX instead of the computer, or an NDAC with the computer?

Also, maybe consider changing your speaker cable? Is the NACA4 old, and how are the plugs/solder joints?

...yepp: source!

If you want 'bright not natural', try demoing the PMC 25.23 on the end of what you already have.  Should do the trick.

tonybabawalla posted:

Thanks Klyde, that's helpful - do you mind if I ask - are you over 50? Just to gauge whether your ears may be similar to mine!

I'm 57 tonybabwalla, and my system Can make the Dead Dance.

NDX is a wonderful source and if you can stretch to an XPS-Dr, this common would also give you what you are after. That’s where I was for some time with the 202/ 200/Hicap-Dr and really injoyed this combination.

Tony - and sorry if that’s not really your name - you raise an interesting point in saying that you want ‘lively’ rather than ‘natural’. I’ve been improving my setup lately and some of the words I’ve used to describe the improvement are more involving, more real and yes, more natural. Natural is good. Boring and uninvolving is not so good. As you improve hifi systems they should become more natural, more like real music. You want a system that makes aggressive music aggressive, sad music sad, relaxing music relaxing, and so on. You want it to sound real. I want my system to cope with Nick Cave, which is playing now, and Bach cantatas. I don’t want it to make Bach sound like  Nick Cave. Does that make sense?

I have never used a computer into a dac so can’t really help, though from what I’ve read there are various gadgets to add to the computer output to improve the signal that goes to a dac. If you go that way, optimising the computer and getting a good dac is what you probably need to do. 

For what it’s worth, I have all my music on a nas, and send it over the network to a streamer. Probably the majority of people do this, and it enables multiroom too. If you go that way, getting an NDX, as suggested above, is a great idea. Alternatively you could ditch the 202, hicap and napsc and get a 272, which will do what the NDX/202 does. I’m not going into the sound quality issues here, just giving you some ideas. I wonder where you live, as there may be someone you can visit for a listen and to see how it all works. But whatever you do, take your time and do some research. With the 200 and the Kudos speakers you have the foundations of a great system that is more than capable of being lively when lively is what’s called for. 

I hope that helps. 

this is quite an unexpected outcome.

I owned 202/200.NAPSC.Hicap for almost 9 years now and would never describe it as soft with Rock, regardless of the source used.

Something seems wrong.

Are the speaker leads connected with the right polarity on the amp side (I made that mistake many times). 

as it has been recently serviced, maybe it needs some time to run in properly?

and you should be using a genuine Naim interconnect or Hi-line between the audiolab and the 202. But really regardless of the interconnect it has never sounded the way you described to me with any kind of source.

Whilst agreeing with earlier respondents references to adding a cdx2, I would also add that to my ears the Kudos C2s are not the most incisive or resolving speaker and may be contributing to the softness you remark on.

Ray

I support the view of others here, I believe it's a combination of your source and speakers that's the fundamental problem, and certainly the NAC202/NAP200 will clearly show up the limitation of a CD8200 used as a DAC.

All the amps further up the Naim hierarchy are fairly neutral in their tonal response (to do otherwise would be a design defect), but they offer different 'flavours' of tonal neutrality.  The 282 for instance has a very energetic presentation.  I think this style of presentation may be what you're actually seeking rather than a literally bright presentation (i.e. one with an excessively elevated HF response in the manner of early metal dome tweeters).

Unfortunately I'm not best placed to advise on the best DACs for you to consider to get this style of presentation.

P.S.  I'm 60 and use a 272+555 / 300DR into a pair of Spendor SP2s (which are known for their neutrality rather than excitement) and while it's tonally very neutral (confirmed using a calibrated microphone!) I don't find it in the least bit dull or uninvolving - actually quite the opposite.

As a long shot - you could ask a friendly dealer to lend you / or let a prolonged demo of a Devialet 120 or 200. You can set it up to suit ears and your speakers. Could be the flavour your hankering for ?

My experience was similar to yours.  The 155x was good, but a bit shouty at times.  The 200 was far more complete and consistent.  It showed up the 202 in some ways, as my next move to a 282 added a huge amount of extra life and finesse.  Don’t get me wrong, I loved the 202/200 until I heard the 282, and that was a real wow moment.  I went on to make the (much debated) move to a 250.2 and am one of those that felt it was another big step (but I do have challenging speakers).  

I like the fact that my system has evolved, but if you are trying to recover your system from a bad place then a more scientific approach might get necessary.  I would be tempted to put it all in my car and find a friendly dealer.  The source looks like a great starting point but after a few box swaps, I am sure that he will help to isolate the key component that will change your life!

It occurs to me that we could all be barking up the wrong tree here! I still think a source upgrade would be a good move, but before we encourage you to spend your way out of the problem, we should first eliminate the possibility that the cause is a fault somewhere in your system. 

The first place to look would be the 200 you’ve just bought. Did it get its service at the Naim factory, or a competent service agent using the correct components? 

When you replaced the amp, it’s just possible that you didn’t push one of the connections fully home, or that the movement caused a poorly soldered connection to crack. 

All speculation, I admit, but worth checking for such issues before spending big money on a box upgrade. 

Thank you so much for all your replies - really appreciated! Of course you're all right in saying source first, so a NAC272 with Tidal may be my next move. The NAP200 was serviced in November at Naim, so yes probably does need more time to run in, but I can't see it getting brighter like the NAP155XS. The 200 is better in some ways, but even when at 10 o'clock it just isn't as bright as the 155XS, and it's this brightness that I like; edgy, lively, fast etc. The fact that I don't need to turn the 155XS up as much means it's better for my tinnitus! My tinnitus was originally caused by turning up a pair of Focal speakers too much to get them to sound exciting a few years ago, so smooth is no good for me. Luckily my dealer exchanged them for the brighter Kudos. I always had Heybrook speakers in previous years, HB1, HB2, HB3 and they're bright. I love these Kudos speakers and there's nothing wrong with the system. The NAP200 just seems smooth which doesn't suit me. However, I'll give it another week or so then plug the NAP155XS back in, then I'll post my findings here. Thanks again, you've all been a real help. Great forum!

tonybabawalla posted:

Thank you so much for all your replies - really appreciated! Of course you're all right in saying source first, so a NAC272 with Tidal may be my next move. The NAP200 was serviced in November at Naim, so yes probably does need more time to run in, but I can't see it getting brighter like the NAP155XS. The 200 is better in some ways, but even when at 10 o'clock it just isn't as bright as the 155XS, and it's this brightness that I like; edgy, lively, fast etc. The fact that I don't need to turn the 155XS up as much means it's better for my tinnitus! My tinnitus was originally caused by turning up a pair of Focal speakers too much to get them to sound exciting a few years ago, so smooth is no good for me. Luckily my dealer exchanged them for the brighter Kudos. I always had Heybrook speakers in previous years, HB1, HB2, HB3 and they're bright. I love these Kudos speakers and there's nothing wrong with the system. The NAP200 just seems smooth which doesn't suit me. However, I'll give it another week or so then plug the NAP155XS back in, then I'll post my findings here. Thanks again, you've all been a real help. Great forum!

If the laptop is the source via the CD8200 then there is plenty of scope for loosing the edge with a poor laptop sound card or interconnect. Jitter on the digital signal will make the sound mellow loosing edge/sharpness/timbre. The 272 will certainly overcome the source issues, but probably needs a PS etc. Just a matter of how much you want to spend. Try it a home first. Plenty of scope for upgrades.

Personally, I am very happy with my 282 system, but it took a lot to get where it is now.

Phil 

Loads of options here but whilst I’m not a source first disciple but I’d start there in this case.   

Regards,

Lindsay

Just a thought and not intended to offend. I do not have Naim equipment, but do know what it sounds like in a house just down the road.

I am 65, have age related hearing deficiency, inherited left side hearing loss and tinnitus. I cannot in any way tolerate "brightness" or up front systems. I have a 8200CD and rarely use it now I haved a Melco N1A. When I bought the Melco it was suggested it would play through the CD player DAC. I could not get it to work, so borrowed a number of others, found the Chord 2Qute highly detailed, expansive soundstage, but somewhat relentless and tiring. I think the high output may not have matched my amp. For various reasons I dismissed others and in the end, because I had not planned for the expenditure, the offer of a substantial discount and the sound of an MDac+ swung it for me.

What became interesting was playing with the BBC proms transmission through a Packard Bell netbook and the DAC of the CD player where the sound was anything but soft, comfortable or bland....

So, having suggested hearing loss, have you had a hearing test, tried hearing aids? Personally, having tried, I prefer not to use them, but I know people who do and as such have chosen their equipment using them.

At 56, getting Starkey Halo hearing aids was like a box-upgrade, to me.  No kidding.  My hearing test shows boarder-line, but clear, HF roll-off; I am told many do not opt to treat at my level — glad I did.  The music sounds like it used to.  (And the family thanks me.)

Nick

I had a 202/200 with naps and hicap before upgrading to 252/250.  Traded the 202 in and decided to keep the 200. It's a very fine amp. Never finded it smooth.  I'm a bit older than you, don't blame your age, try a better source.

How about a s/h 102/180 on a glass shelf....bright,unnatural,edgy, fast and very lively. All the things you are looking for,

Sister xx