300 serviced and DR - now the midrange sounds so cold / hard

Another observation, is that after a service and upgrade, it does time for the new components to burn in again... I have generally found a hard upper mid is a symptom of a device yet to fully bed in..

analogmusic posted:

I find it virtually impossible to go back to the older non DR amps but hey ho... whatever flats ones boat musically.

Some of my friends don’t like any Naim at all and prefer and bought all Linn systems.

 

 

i know someone who prefer the sound of the olive boxes, he find that the music is more fluid and softer....

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Another observation, is that after a service and upgrade, it does time for the new components to burn in again... I have generally found a hard upper mid is a symptom of a device yet to fully bed in..

the op had burned them during 6 months....

DR'ing Naim kit seems generally to open the window in my experience. This is not automatically a good thing because it can expose a weakness elsewhere in the chain. A better more expensive car is a better car; right? Simple.

I suppose the Hi-Fi/automotive analogy would be - 'Ive fitted a bigger engine. It's faster, but now it doesn't go round corners as well as it did'.

Could the issue here be as simple as 'too lively' room acoustics or moving the speakers a bit, as a someone suggested? Photos please.

Or it could be a cable mis-match issue. All my Naim DR upgrades have sounded great from the off (with a full loom of Super Lumina), but everything else in the chain needs to be copacetic for the DR upgrades to 'work'.

Good luck.

John.

I agree with J.N.  When I first tried a 555PSDR on my nDAC it seemed to do too much - top end too hard and bass a bit over-blown - and I preferred and bought a non DR 555PS.  Only some time later after a number of other components had been upgraded did I try the 555PSDR v 555PS again. Second time around my view completely reversed. In retrospect I put my original experience down to the 555PSDR revealing weaknesses further down the system, leaving me to conclude that 'less is more'. Once the rest of the system has been upgraded (552DR/300DR replacing 282/SCDR/250.2 then adding SL full loom) the potential of the DR'ed 555PS was very evident and then preferred.  

Something else occurs to me Olivier. A long term and well respected forum member was pulling his hair out a while back with a wonky/off sounding 300. It eventually turned out to be a 'knackered burndy' (excuse the technical terminology) issue.

As ever; a good dealer is invaluable.

John.

Dave***t posted:

Whether the DR tech is at least in part a marketing scam (if I understand your implication correctly) doesn't really matter that much IMO - the proof is there for the listening, either way.

Dave,

sorry but you misunderstood me completely. I would never dream of using a word like scam about anything regarding Naim. Disagreement may happen, taste may change; only stupids never change their mind. Naim had their reasons to realize the DR, and at the time I thought I could imagine a few of them. As far as I'm concerned, all discussion about DR is now over for me, and just occasion for time wasted on some threads.

Max_B posted:

Innocent question: why has it been universally (or so) taken for granted that the 'new' DR regulator technology would automatically and implicitly make Naim gear sound better? 

I have alluded to this idea and was told that the dealer who suggested to me that the improvement from Nap 300 to 300DR might not be worth the £1'000+ was lying and just wanted to offload an old 300 he had lying around.

Foot tapper posted:

Max_B posted:

Innocent question: why has it been universally (or so) taken for granted that the 'new' DR regulator technology would automatically and implicitly make Naim gear sound better? ....

Interesting question Max.  My own limited trials have indicated that DR worked absolute wonders on the 250.2 power amp. 

By way of contrast, I have a very clear preference for a serviced, olive supercap on a 52 over a run-in supercap DR on the same 52, yet the superline I tried was far happier with a supercap DR than my serviced olive supercap.  

Why?  No idea.

Best regards, FT

I have owned only one Supercap, a very late olive one with a factory fitted new 'black' fascia. I had it recapped and serviced but not DR-ed. I used it on my 282, on which I had already tried various HiCaps. I can say that I found it to do something to the sound that no other PSU I had previously had – from a SNAPS to an XPS-DR – had done, changing the whole character of the system. Since then, my conviction that it's not the DR (I know well both a DR300 and a non-DR300) but simply the position in the hierarchy that does the difference. In other words, a Supercap2 to me will always be second only to a 555. All other PSUs are just a question of particles of preference, and even the HiCap, to these ears, has become a relatively debatable option, a minor question.

Best regards to you,

M.

I think some here are blindly locked into Naim and all their associated fanfare with DR. Other makers do DR, have been long before Naim, and do so without pomp and circumstance. Why? Probably for the very reason that some will prefer DR, some won't, but more importantly, most folks will simply listen for what they like without regard for the design bells and whistles. In other words, Naim have done a great job promoting a particular design feature (DR) and padded their coffers with no-brainer upgrade responses. That by no means makes DR a panacea for every listener, just a big win for Naim marketing.

who else makes a fully regulated amplifier ?

please let us know

I think that the 250-2 non DR wasn't to everyones taste with some users finding it a bit 'flabby' and 'bloated'the DR version cured this problem for some and was a great success. Other users have found they don't find enough of a difference between other DR and non DR units and some even prefer the non DR version.

Lots of users have found that a Supercap DR is too much for a 282 but like a non DR Supercap whilst others prefer Hicap DR. These are all just personal differences and tastes no need to get your knickers in a twist trying to force someone to like the same thing you do.

analogmusic posted:

 who else makes a fully regulated amplifier ?

Kicker Car Audio for one, but I suppose fully regulated is the standard for 12-V quality automotive class-D amps. For class A/B amps there's the Sanders Magtech and likely others I've not come across. Krell and Bryston have DR in their pre-amps. Rouge Audio mentions it in passing with their Stereo 100 Amp, albeit a tube amp and maybe fully regulated is inherent in tube design, IDK, nor do I care.

Point being, I come across occasional mentions of discrete and full regulation for both amps and pre-amps as I peruse various makers on the net. Generally something that flies under the radar. Here, it's a big shooting match. Changes the sound in a Naim application for sure, I've heard it. I get DR's implications on paper, just not convinced it's patently the end-all for everyone's ears.

As an example, I tried a HCDR direct on my Stageline. Better in some regards. Smoother in some ways while more artificially hyper in others, possibly less "natural" flow. Do I really need my vinyl side to sound smoother or more hyper? No. OTOH, a HCDR on my CD5X is a nice improvement of my digital side. At the same time, leaves wondering whether the merits of a $2,600 PSU might be better spent on simply upgrading to a finer CDP.

I parted ways with my SN2 and its DR'd pre. Adding the HCDR made it way too hyper for me. Found a non-DR'd integrated with bigger watts that worked better in my room. So in the end, DR is rather meaningless to me, it's the sound in my room that matters most.

Back in the early 1970s Sinclair offered a DR power supply option for its Project 60 modular amps...  It wasn't called DR because there were no IC so all regulated power supplies were duscrete, the choice at that time being unregulated or regulated. I somehow doubt Sinclair’s was as good as Naim’s current DR technology.

Interestingly I remember debate at the time about whether regulated or unregulated sounded better...

Oliver, you don’t say anything in your profile about your power cables. I have a 282 + SuperCap DR into 300DR. I use the Naim supplied MK type plug on the kettle lead, and this works fine - actually amazing. I have tried PowerLines and Powerline Lites on the 300DR and found the sound to be hard even with quite lengthy tests. On the contrary I found the Powerline Lite to work well on the SuperCap DR and NAPSC. 

Phil

I’ve got a PowerLine on my 300DR and it’s perfectly fine. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’ve got a PowerLine on my 300DR and it’s perfectly fine. 

HH, It’s the OP’s system that has the problem. Given the wide range of SQ variations we all have in boxes, setup, speakers, ears and rooms it’s worth suggesting things to try particularly when one has experienced something similar.

As Chrissu suggests - you should contact Peter Swain at Cymbiosis - I expect you will get first class assistance and save yourself a lot of time on the forum on the off chance of a solution to what sounds like a very frustrating problem.

I’m with HH PLs work well on all my Naim boxes.   

I don't think there is any real outcome that will come out of contact with Peter Swain - (unless he sold you these Sarum cables too - which he might have) until the OP connect the standard Naim cables and see if the problem is still there.

I have heard quite a few cases of the Sarum cables becoming disconnected internally and maybe that is also the source of the problem.

I just don't have much hope for usage of non-naim cables on a Naim system when it comes to the crucial pre-power linkage, call me a non-believer, unbeliever or pessimist or whatever.

I've heard Naim systems ruined with Non-Naim power cables too.

 If Naim took over 30 years (yes over 30 years !!) to improve on the standard DIN/XLR pre-power cable, there must be a reason for taking so long to come up with SuperLumina

The Sarum cable pre-date the DR amps, by the way, whereas Superlumina was voiced with the DR amps.

I think one forum member referred to the Sarum cable as "ghastly hi-fi" sounding.

Maybe Sarum-T is the cure to this awful problem, who knows.

I wish the OP lots of good luck, my own NAP 250DR sounds wonderful.... and has sounded like that from day 1.

I don't think there is any real outcome that will come out of contact with Peter Swain

The DR upgrade was arranged through Cymbiosis - one of the premier Naim dealers and Peter Swain is one of the (undisputed) experts on Naim. You don't think there will be ay real outcome from contacting him for advice?  Bizarre.

analogmusic posted:

Maybe Sarum-T is the cure to this awful problem, who knows.

I wonder how awful the problem really is. It took six months to mention it and it doesn’t seem that he’s called his dealer, which is the first thing most people would do. People are more energised to respond than the OP is to take action, it seems. 

You are right HH......

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’ve got a PowerLine on my 300DR and it’s perfectly fine. 

I have Powerlines on my Naim power supplies two are DR - they are sublime (in my unbiasedopinion)

analogmusic posted:

I don't think there is any real outcome that will come out of contact with Peter Swain - (unless he sold you these Sarum cables too - which he might have) until the OP connect the standard Naim cables and see if the problem is still there.

I have heard quite a few cases of the Sarum cables becoming disconnected internally and maybe that is also the source of the problem.

I just don't have much hope for usage of non-naim cables on a Naim system when it comes to the crucial pre-power linkage, call me a non-believer, unbeliever or pessimist or whatever.

I've heard Naim systems ruined with Non-Naim power cables too.

 If Naim took over 30 years (yes over 30 years !!) to improve on the standard DIN/XLR pre-power cable, there must be a reason for taking so long to come up with SuperLumina

The Sarum cable pre-date the DR amps, by the way, whereas Superlumina was voiced with the DR amps.

I think one forum member referred to the Sarum cable as "ghastly hi-fi" sounding.

Maybe Sarum-T is the cure to this awful problem, who knows.

I wish the OP lots of good luck, my own NAP 250DR sounds wonderful.... and has sounded like that from day 1.

 

 

Hi, I will try with original cables and yes(!) I suspect one of my Sarum DIN-XLR kabels to have a ‘ broken’  contact!! When I move it the volume and sound reduce extremely! Hope Chord want to check this.....

Powercable is also Sarum. This cable and other Sarum (interlink) cables are (for me) definitely a upgrade in performance!!