300 serviced and DR - now the midrange sounds so cold / hard

J.N. posted:

Something else occurs to me Olivier. A long term and well respected forum member was pulling his hair out a while back with a wonky/off sounding 300. It eventually turned out to be a 'knackered burndy' (excuse the technical terminology) issue.

As ever; a good dealer is invaluable.

John.

Hi John, 

Burdy’s has been checked by Naim because I had a problem with the sound on right channel. (when I touch this cable)

Problem is still there so now I find out that one Sarum din/xlr is not oke. I hope Chord is willing to repair this. However I don’t know if this is the cause of my cold/hard sound....

Olivier

Hungryhalibut posted:

analogmusic posted:

Maybe Sarum-T is the cure to this awful problem, who knows.

I wonder how awful the problem really is. It took six months to mention it and it doesn’t seem that he’s called his dealer, which is the first thing most people would do. People are more energised to respond than the OP is to take action, it seems. 

It seems, indeed! And yes....I didn’t call ‘my dealer’ (in the UK) until now because I first want to try to find out where to look and what can be wrong. So far a lot of people gave good suggestions that are really helpful....thanks for that!!

And some people...Hungryhalibut...are less helpful.

bluedog posted:

I don't think there is any real outcome that will come out of contact with Peter Swain

The DR upgrade was arranged through Cymbiosis - one of the premier Naim dealers and Peter Swain is one of the (undisputed) experts on Naim. You don't think there will be ay real outcome from contacting him for advice?  Bizarre.

Yes bluedog, when I have tried (some) of the good suggestions that where given by a lot of people on this forum I will contact Peter Swain. 

Well, I’ve given a number of helpful suggestions already. Why you don’t just call Peter is beyond me. Anyway, it’s none of my business. 

Sloop John B posted:

analogmusic posted:

The OP has not disclosed which speaker cable he uses. 

 

Officer Analogue is correct  

You have the right to remain silent,  but it may harm your forum credibility if you do not mention when questioned something which a myriad of experts here can dissect and analyse from the perspective of not being the perfect choice for zealots. 

 

.sjb

Sorry for the silents but unfortunately I was not able to respond in the past few days!! 

And yes SC (speaker cable) is Sarum. With Sarum bi-wire links.

analogmusic posted:

HungryHalibut is correct

Remove the Sarum interlinks between the Supercap and 300 DR and try with the standard Naim DIN/XLR.

the DR amps have a much lower noise floor (20 times lower than the non-dr ones) and will reveal any previously masked and unaudible issues.

Naim voice their amplifiers with their own cables, so anyone who uses Non-Naim cables might experience unexpected results.

 

 

 

 

 

Sarum was definitely an upgrade relative to the original cables. But thanks for your suggestion.....I will (re)try the originals!

J.N. posted:

DR'ing Naim kit seems generally to open the window in my experience. This is not automatically a good thing because it can expose a weakness elsewhere in the chain. A better more expensive car is a better car; right? Simple.

I suppose the Hi-Fi/automotive analogy would be - 'Ive fitted a bigger engine. It's faster, but now it doesn't go round corners as well as it did'.

Could the issue here be as simple as 'too lively' room acoustics or moving the speakers a bit, as a someone suggested? Photos please.

Or it could be a cable mis-match issue. All my Naim DR upgrades have sounded great from the off (with a full loom of Super Lumina), but everything else in the chain needs to be copacetic for the DR upgrades to 'work'.

Good luck.

John.

 

Hi John,

I’am going to try a few things, for example back to original cables - however I don’t thing that’s the solution

Until the service and DR everything was oke.

Find a possible issue on one Sarum din/xlr cable! 

I will post result.

Thanks, Olivier

analogmusic posted:

Ok fair enough. But still.... It's still a non-naim full loom.

A few hi-end cables (non Naim ones) I've tried on Naim change the sound, but that's the thing.

Some people may like this change, but it is a departure from neutrality and also a departure from the very careful tuning of Naim cables and Naim amplifiers done over thousands of listening hours by none other than Roy George himself (the keeper of the Naim sound) and the man who created the legendary Nait 2. It is worth remembering no Naim product can be signed off for production without his approval, including Superlumina Cables.

I do feel somewhat like this is an unfair comment to make though, as the Sarum full loom is very damn expensive and for the OP to be told that it is the cause of the issue isn't very helpful or nice.

Maybe it's a burndy issue. Hopefully  ?

 

Hi,

Burndy has been checked but one channel Sarum din/xlr might be an issue! I will try originals to find out and let you know the result!

Stephen Tate posted:

Hi Oliver,

I'm no expert and only use an entry level (albeit) enjoyable Naim system and have on the odd occasion heard my system sounding a little 'off'. For me, it has always boiled down to a connection. I have found that a powering down and just unplugging everything and starting again has resolved the issue - I would certainly pay attention to Adam's post at the top of this page to be of importance as it may solve your issues, failing that, it will be down to your dealer, surely?

One other thing, is to maybe have an electrician pay you a visit and check all of your mains electricity, even if it means just going through all the connections in your home, ie... plug sockets, earthing, consumer unit and so forth, worth doing anyway IMHO.

Anyway, keep us posted on what you find as it will in no doubt be very helpful for all us members on this forum as to what the outcome is.

Seasons greetings 

 

I will unplug everything and try some other suggestions from some forum members.

Failing that I will for sure contact my dealer.

Thanks!

Filipe posted:

Oliver, you don’t say anything in your profile about your power cables. I have a 282 + SuperCap DR into 300DR. I use the Naim supplied MK type plug on the kettle lead, and this works fine - actually amazing. I have tried PowerLines and Powerline Lites on the 300DR and found the sound to be hard even with quite lengthy tests. On the contrary I found the Powerline Lite to work well on the SuperCap DR and NAPSC. 

Phil

Hi Phil,

Powercable at 300 is a chord sarum.

Rest equipment on a (standard) Powerigel.

Mulberry posted:

Hi Olivier,

of your components the Guarnieris are the only ones I know firsthand. But I am confident in saying that they should by no means sound like you describe them.

Regarding possible causes, two things come to my mind. The first is a wrong polarity on one speaker, the other unsuitable jumpers between the two binding posts on the Guarnieris. The latter shouldn’t be that obvious, unless the DR has increased the overall resolution a lot.

Hi Mulberry,

Guarneries should sound beautiful!

Polarity is good.

Jumpers are Sarum too.

Hi oliver, 

i havented posted in a long time, but I have a few ideas. After some upgrading recently to my kit, it wasn’t until I disassembled and reassembled my stand and boxes, that I discovered that my din cable lost a channel due to solder joint fail. Which sounds like the same discovery you may be seeing, a bad channel on a cable. My cables sat hanging in same position for years, and when they were moved and plugged back in, the joint failed. Also, while not on the same level, I upgraded my lp12 with new inner sub chassis, cirkus bearing, and moved from dynavector cartridge to a linn Krystal. The sound was wayyyyyy different. I had to move speakers, toe in, and speaker angle pitch. It took a month+ to find the right combo, and a new din cable to get the sound right. It IS NOT the same sound, but it is much more detail, and my ears are used to it now. Maybe borrow some kit from a friend to swap out and test to see if you find the phenomenon. Mark your original speaker locations and try moving them. It may help. If all else fails call Peter at cymbiosis, as HH suggested. Hope this helps......

Scott

analogmusic posted:

oh and this also includes speaker cables.

Which speaker cable are you using?

Unfortunately, I was not able to respond in the past few days....sorry.....I have Sarum speaker cables with Sarum Jumpers!

rega1 posted:

Hi oliver, 

i havented posted in a long time, but I have a few ideas. After some upgrading recently to my kit, it wasn’t until I disassembled and reassembled my stand and boxes, that I discovered that my din cable lost a channel due to solder joint fail. Which sounds like the same discovery you may be seeing, a bad channel on a cable. My cables sat hanging in same position for years, and when they were moved and plugged back in, the joint failed. Also, while not on the same level, I upgraded my lp12 with new inner sub chassis, cirkus bearing, and moved from dynavector cartridge to a linn Krystal. The sound was wayyyyyy different. I had to move speakers, toe in, and speaker angle pitch. It took a month+ to find the right combo, and a new din cable to get the sound right. It IS NOT the same sound, but it is much more detail, and my ears are used to it now. Maybe borrow some kit from a friend to swap out and test to see if you find the phenomenon. Mark your original speaker locations and try moving them. It may help. If all else fails call Peter at cymbiosis, as HH suggested. Hope this helps......

 

Scott

Hi Scott,

Burdy’s has been checked by Naim because I had a problem with the sound on right channel. (when I touch the cables....)

Problem is still there so now I find out that one channel Sarum din/xlr is probably not oke. I hope Chord is willing to check / repair this. However I don’t know if this is the cause of my cold/hard sound but reading your post it might be the case!!

And off course I will ask Peter at Cymbiosis for advise if I can’t figure it out myself.

Thanks for your post!

Olivier

analogmusic posted:

 

 If Naim took over 30 years (yes over 30 years !!) to improve on the standard DIN/XLR pre-power cable, there must be a reason for taking so long to come up with SuperLumina

 

 

 

Market demand for stupidly expensive hifi I/C and speaker cables may have played just a tiny little part Naim Audio are an organisation in the business of making money . Am I being very cynical here but the view sometimes held on this forum and Im not aiming this at you analogmusic that Naim Audio are this altruistic almost celestial venture dispensing true hifi from Salisbury THEY ARE A MONEY MAKING VENTURE!!!!!! And the reason for developing SuperLumina was to compete with Chord who were cornering the market for a share of the market.

Bob the Builder posted:

analogmusic posted:

 

 If Naim took over 30 years (yes over 30 years !!) to improve on the standard DIN/XLR pre-power cable, there must be a reason for taking so long to come up with SuperLumina

 

 

 

Market demand for stupidly expensive hifi I/C and speaker cables may have played just a tiny little part Naim Audio are an organisation in the business of making money . Am I being very cynical here but the view sometimes held on this forum and Im not aiming this at you analogmusic that Naim Audio are this altruistic almost celestial venture dispensing true hifi from Salisbury THEY ARE A MONEY MAKING VENTURE!!!!!! And the reason for developing SuperLumina was to compete with Chord who were cornering the market for a share of the market.

well Naim just doesn't make cables for the sake of it, and if need be they will let decades go by until they hear they can improve on the Naim standard cables.

To me that is integrity.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I wonder how awful the problem really is. It took six months to mention it and it doesn’t seem that he’s called his dealer, which is the first thing most people would do. People are more energised to respond than the OP is to take action, it seems. 

Not everyone is inclined to reach for the phone and call mommy when things aren't swinging their way. Some utilize critical thinking and attempt independent solution. That or they might simply have bigger priorities in their daily routine than hi-fi. It's not everyone able to sit home 24/7 in front of their system and respond to the forum.

But it’s nice if you can Joe... 

If I got my car delivered back from a service and I wasn’t happy with the way it drove, I wouldn’t wait six months and then ask a bunch of people on the internet what might be up with it. I’d call the garage straight away and get them to fix it. That’s what I call sorting it out and thinking for myself, and certainly not running to mommy. 

Olivier1961 posted:

rega1 posted:

Hi oliver, 

i havented posted in a long time, but I have a few ideas. After some upgrading recently to my kit, it wasn’t until I disassembled and reassembled my stand and boxes, that I discovered that my din cable lost a channel due to solder joint fail. Which sounds like the same discovery you may be seeing, a bad channel on a cable. My cables sat hanging in same position for years, and when they were moved and plugged back in, the joint failed. Also, while not on the same level, I upgraded my lp12 with new inner sub chassis, cirkus bearing, and moved from dynavector cartridge to a linn Krystal. The sound was wayyyyyy different. I had to move speakers, toe in, and speaker angle pitch. It took a month+ to find the right combo, and a new din cable to get the sound right. It IS NOT the same sound, but it is much more detail, and my ears are used to it now. Maybe borrow some kit from a friend to swap out and test to see if you find the phenomenon. Mark your original speaker locations and try moving them. It may help. If all else fails call Peter at cymbiosis, as HH suggested. Hope this helps......

 

Scott

Hi Scott,

Burdy’s has been checked by Naim because I had a problem with the sound on right channel. (when I touch the cables....)

Problem is still there so now I find out that one channel Sarum din/xlr is probably not oke. I hope Chord is willing to check / repair this. However I don’t know if this is the cause of my cold/hard sound but reading your post it might be the case!!

And off course I will ask Peter at Cymbiosis for advise if I can’t figure it out myself.

Thanks for your post!

Olivier

Hi Olivier,

If there is a fault with the cable, it's likely to be a connection - the cable itself is unlikely to malfunction unless it's been folded or mistreated somehow - and if it is the connection, you're likely to get no sound at all out of the affected channel or an intermittent sound as the loose ends of the connection make contact.  Hi-Lines have been known to suffer from that given the floating nature of the Airplug.  Neverthless, it should be obvious. 

Having said that, if there is a fault with the Chord cable, let Cymbiosis know and they will simply send it back to Chord for repair; I presume you registered the cable with Chord when you bought it? Likewise, if there is a problem with a Burndy, my experience is that Naim will resolve it without fuss (I had a problem with the Burndy on my 552 and it was resolved immediately). Service from both companies is great.

I still don't think that this will be the reason for the sound you describe, though.

A cable can also have a dry joint, in this case, there can still be enough mechanical metal to metal contact to ensure that the signal isn't lost entirely, but the resulting poor connection can still cause a degree of distortion.

This distortion can appear as sounding 'cold' and or 'hard' (or anything else!), it can also be either constant or variable in nature.

This can apply to Burndys or to interconnects (including SNAICs); it can even happen to mains cables.

Hungryhalibut posted:

If I got my car delivered back from a service and I wasn’t happy with the way it drove, I wouldn’t wait six months and then ask a bunch of people on the internet what might be up with it. I’d call the garage straight away and get them to fix it. That’s what I call sorting it out and thinking for myself, and certainly not running to mommy. 

But then cars don’t suffer from burn-in hype saying give it 6 months (other than running in of new cars before exploiting full power (if that is still the case)

Olivier1961 posted:

analogmusic posted:

I don't think there is any real outcome that will come out of contact with Peter Swain - (unless he sold you these Sarum cables too - which he might have) until the OP connect the standard Naim cables and see if the problem is still there.

I have heard quite a few cases of the Sarum cables becoming disconnected internally and maybe that is also the source of the problem.

I just don't have much hope for usage of non-naim cables on a Naim system when it comes to the crucial pre-power linkage, call me a non-believer, unbeliever or pessimist or whatever.

I've heard Naim systems ruined with Non-Naim power cables too.

 If Naim took over 30 years (yes over 30 years !!) to improve on the standard DIN/XLR pre-power cable, there must be a reason for taking so long to come up with SuperLumina

The Sarum cable pre-date the DR amps, by the way, whereas Superlumina was voiced with the DR amps.

I think one forum member referred to the Sarum cable as "ghastly hi-fi" sounding.

Maybe Sarum-T is the cure to this awful problem, who knows.

I wish the OP lots of good luck, my own NAP 250DR sounds wonderful.... and has sounded like that from day 1.

 

 

Hi, I will try with original cables and yes(!) I suspect one of my Sarum DIN-XLR kabels to have a ‘ broken’  contact!! When I move it the volume and sound reduce extremely! Hope Chord want to check this.....

Powercable is also Sarum. This cable and other Sarum (interlink) cables are (for me) definitely a upgrade in performance!!

well, now that you mention you are using Sarum power cables.I would also replace the Sarum power cables with the standard ones that Naim supply.

I think this could  really the source of your issue. 

For the Naim statement amplifier, Naim in their manual say that the statement should only be used with Naim power lines supplied with the amplifier.

The power  cables, speaker cables, and DIN/XLR (pre-power) cables for me should be Naim's own one, interconnects from source to preamp can be others, but invariably I found Naim own cables are really good and there is no need to look elsewhere. I guess Sarum only gained market traction as it pre-dated Superlumina.  

 A change in sound doesn't necessarily mean an improvement in the Naim factory designed and intended performance.

Olivier1961 posted:

Filipe posted:

Oliver, you don’t say anything in your profile about your power cables. I have a 282 + SuperCap DR into 300DR. I use the Naim supplied MK type plug on the kettle lead, and this works fine - actually amazing. I have tried PowerLines and Powerline Lites on the 300DR and found the sound to be hard even with quite lengthy tests. On the contrary I found the Powerline Lite to work well on the SuperCap DR and NAPSC. 

Phil

Hi Phil,

Powercable at 300 is a chord sarum.

Rest equipment on a (standard) Powerigel.

Certainly, as Analogmusic says, switch to the standard Naim power cords as a test. Getting the sound you like is a matter of balancing all the elements of a system. Just because a power cord sound better on one box does not mean it’s better on another. People would not use different (Naim) power cords unless they thought it improved the sound. I just happen to think my system sounds warmer with the standard power cord to the PL orPL Lite. It may be a hearing thing.  I have read forum posts of others not liking PLs because of the sound. There is sometimes a belief that detail equates to better, but warmer to me is more enjoyable, and I find the soundstage and imaging better when the sound is warmer. In my experience the detail get better and stays warm when the full SL is present. I cannot comment on other brands but I think Analogmusic has a point.

Phil

Having heard the difference from a 250.2 to 250DR .... I think the problem you are having is almost certainly to do with the speaker cable. The 250DR removed the warmness of the 250.2 - in a positive way. I think the step on a 300DR would be equal if not more....... again in a good way. The Sarum cable I would be willing to bet has exacerbated this - you need to try std Naim speaker cable (incidentally due to the slightly warm nature of the 300 ... I would imagine the Sarum would be pretty good - pulling out extra clarity) - I bet that will calm things down. Note for me going from the 500 to 500dr was similar - removal of the slight warmness and an increase in clarity. I use SL speaker cable which seems to suit the DR amps very well - I used mine on the 250dr and now on the 500dr.