Latest Core Update Issues?

Gazza posted:

Phil, don,t take this wrong. Take some time with the Core, changing cables so soon, may make you end up making the wrong decision. Ethernet cables and switches are a consideration?

I have a cheap digital cable into a Nova and then Dr300 and a PMC 25.26. Yes the DC1 did better, but I ended up paying for a Fraim second hand. In the end I will get a DC1, but look at all options, and have fun.

 

 

 

Gazza, my end goal would be to dispense with the CDX2 and have a means of playing ripped CDs etc. The problem is the CDX2 just keeps getting better and better(like adding DC1). I wish I could ‘transport’ others into my lounge to listen and me into theirs. I’ve been on the journey for quite a while and experienced many of the “improvements” that don’t work. I don’t particularly want to shell out a huge sum on an NDS just to do what my CDX2 does. 

I have wondered how the ND5XS would sound into the nDAC as I would like to try TIDAL. I have to wait till mid January when the sale season is dropping off and I can borrow it. The Unitiserve and Core are both burned-in and warm. They produce a very acceptable sound but I can hear that the CDX2 is better. 

I have an Audioquest Pearl to the hub which is a directional audio Ethernet cable. I know that isolating the audio devices from the hub with a decent switch such as a Cisco 2960 with an iFi linear PS could reduce the noise level in the US or Core,  but I don’t want to get drawn into that. I have a 3m AQ Pearl which is sealed and on loan which I could connect to the NAS. It is supposed to help.

Only Naim know whether the Core has as good a sound card as the CDX2. It would be interesting to know. Ditto ND5XS.

Phil

Not sure who your dealer is, but when I have been open with my dealer on my journey they have been very supportive. It has helped me not to leap onto the web, and buy and regret.

Ask to try a Core or what you think in terms of cabling helps you. I borrowed a DC1, most helpful. I ended up with a 2 base a Fraim in the end, yes, more money...

I have listened to Core into My Nova and a 272, it’s a great streamer. Yes, it’s not been a great launch, but most bugs are being sorted. Try yourself, make your dealer make you comfortable. The next OEM step would be Melco, you still need to rip, and it’s more expensive,,,,

TJ posted

If you want to preserve your favourites and playlists then one of the following methods will also work:

• On a mac launch the terminal app. Enter the following command (changing the IP address for that of your Core): "curl -X PUT 192.168.1.19:15081/rip?autoEject=1"
• Windows or Mac. Use the chrome browser and install the Postman app. Launch the postman app and do PUT request with the following (changing the IP address for that of your Core): "192.168.1.19:15081/rip?autoEject=1"

Alternatively just point a web browser at the ip address of your core. Go to the Advanced tab. Choose “Eject after rip?” and set it to “yes”. Then click the “Restart” button

oh, hold on a second.....

Oh, and the IT literate will try:

http://192.168.128.143:15081/rip? (or whatever your core IP address is) whilst ripping gives you quite a nice status dump of what is going on with your rip:

{"version":"1","changestamp":"0","name":"Ripping Monitor","ussi":"rip","class":"object.ripMonitor","albumName":"The Silver Collection: The Songbooks","artistName":"Ella Fitzgerald","artwork":"http:\/\/192.168.128.143:16000\/artworks\/3d8015e1a90e4b3fac529bd94fbb8db0","authority":"rovi","autoEject":"1","burstMode":"0","cpu":"2573","current":"1","device":"devices\/xtCLErWdJhgm4sqFVmPTSA==","duration":"3902","elapsed":"429","format":"80","ident":"20171216_214139","progress":"0.307535","readErrors":"14","result":"0","state":"5","stopReason":"0","target":"NAIM-2cd1df","children":[{"name":"Oh, Lady Be Good","ussi":"rip\/1","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"45","duration":"243","index":"1","progress":"5","readErrors":"14","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Nice Work If You Can Get It","ussi":"rip\/2","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"215","index":"2","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Fascinating Rhythm","ussi":"rip\/3","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"205","index":"3","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"All the Things You Are","ussi":"rip\/4","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"198","index":"4","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Yesterdays","ussi":"rip\/5","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"173","index":"5","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man","ussi":"rip\/6","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"236","index":"6","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Come Rain or Come Shine","ussi":"rip\/7","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"204","index":"7","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"It's Only a Paper Moon","ussi":"rip\/8","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"217","index":"8","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Over the Rainbow","ussi":"rip\/9","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"259","index":"9","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Laura","ussi":"rip\/10","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"225","index":"10","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Skylark","ussi":"rip\/11","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"193","index":"11","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"This Time the Dream's on Me","ussi":"rip\/12","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"176","index":"12","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Puttin' on the Ritz","ussi":"rip\/13","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"137","index":"13","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Alexander's Ragtime Band","ussi":"rip\/14","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"163","index":"14","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Cheek to Cheek","ussi":"rip\/15","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"228","index":"15","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"My Funny Valentine","ussi":"rip\/16","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"235","index":"16","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Have You Met Miss Jones?","ussi":"rip\/17","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"221","index":"17","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"The Lady Is a Tramp","ussi":"rip\/18","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"203","index":"18","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"},{"name":"Manhattan","ussi":"rip\/19","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"0","duration":"171","index":"19","progress":"0","readErrors":"0","result":"0","stopReason":"0"}]}

And from that stream:

http://192.168.128.143:16000/a...4b3fac529bd94fbb8db0

Gives you the artwork of the album which you can check

From my ripping of a bad disc:

{"name":"Fascinating Rhythm","ussi":"rip\/3","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"37","duration":"205","index":"3","progress":"100","readErrors":"2","result":"1","stopReason":"1"}

Corrections: 37 probably means 37 correctable errors

readErrors : 2 appears in the UI as "2 errors" with a yellow warning

On a different, worse condition track:

{"name":"Oh, Lady Be Good","ussi":"rip\/1","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"132","duration":"243","index":"1","progress":"100","readErrors":"38","result":"3","stopReason":"5"}

Corrections is 132 and readErrors is 38 and Result is 3 -- this appears as a red error and a non-rip.

This track came through as a green OK

{"name":"Can't Help Lovin' Dat Man","ussi":"rip\/6","class":"object.riptrack","corrections":"24","duration":"236","index":"6","progress":"100","readErrors":"0","result":"1","stopReason":"1"}

as you can see, corrections = 24 and readErrors = 0 with a result of 1

I'm not sure what the boundary is between read errors being a warning and being a fail. Somewhere above 2 and somewhere below 38, clearly.

Some explanation from TJ here would explain this. Yes of course it should be user adjustable.

I think I read in the forum in the last couple of days that the errors that the Core tells you about are uncorrectable errors, whereas your dump presumably identifies total errors including those fixed by the Red Book error correction strategy.

I don't see why any ordinary user would have any interest in the number of successfully corrected errors?

best

David

TJ posted:

I have seen this on one system which updated from 1.4 to 2.5, the auto eject feature did not get enabled by the update. You can fix this by doing a factory reset:

• Factory reset. Do this by powering off the Core. Then switch power on with the standby button held. Keep holding the standby button until the light above the USB socket flashes. NOTE THAT THIS WILL DELETE YOUR FAVOURITES AND PLAYLISTS

Regarding ripping errors, If there are ripping errors reported then often cleaning the CD and re-ripping can result in an error free rip. Often a track with a few rip errors may have very few if any audible glitches. I have found that some pristine CDs can have errors, presumably minor defects in the manufacturing or pressing process. I confirm in these cases it was the CD by swapping mech and ripping solution.

Core 2.5 will log every uncorrectable C2 data error and you can see if a CD ripped with errors on the iOS app album page. There is an icon under the album image with a tick or exclamation mark to denote if there were errors. Also on the home screen you can select "More..."  > Albums with ripping errors. This show albums ripped on Core 2.5 that have errors.

Okay, here is an update on where we are following my initial starting point in this thread with non auto ejecting CD's at the end of the ripping process.

Thanks to TJ;'s post and carrying out a factory reset this issue is now resolved. So many thanks indeed TJ. Firmware it was then.

Backing Up to a QNAP NAS - Still no joy, but I believe this is a known issue at present, following a telephone call I had with Phil on the support line and should be resolved with the next release - not sure if that is firmware or app.

Now with regards to ripping errors. Call me a cynic, but at this point in time, please note I am only saying up to this point, all the errors I get are always on the last one, two or three tracks on longer duration CD's. Coincidence? Not sure. I have a little more ripping to be carried out of approximately 300 CD's, so a while to go yet, :-) and then I might have more foundation to this subject in the future and will update the post accordingly with what will only be my thoughts.

To all of you that have posted on this thread, from what I would consider myself a newbie to the forum and HiFi/Naim matters, a big thanks to date. From this one thread that I started just a few days ago, it has been really interesting reading the various thoughts, feedback and the like on this and subsequent related subjects on the firmware update.  You never stop learning.

The last track is on the outer edge of a CD, so it's the opposite of an LP. I suspect that the outer half inch or so of a CD gets more handling (ie by fingers!), so dirt, grease and minor damage is more likely there than on the early tracks. You could try washing and drying a CD carefully and see if that reduces errors on the last tracks.

best

David

A user might want to know -- it could be additional info available them. 

I don't want to know how many bits of bird poo the window cleaner had to clean off my windows....

David Hendon posted:

The last track is on the outer edge of a CD, so it's the opposite of an LP. I suspect that the outer half inch or so of a CD gets more handling (ie by fingers!), so dirt, grease and minor damage is more likely there than on the early tracks. You could try washing and drying a CD carefully and see if that reduces errors on the last tracks.

Is this CD "Disc Rot"  (see Wikipedia)   When I ripped my collection a few years ago (with dBpoweramp)  I found it on some older CD's.  However I discovered that when my desktop DVD read/write drive found it,  I cleaned/polished the disc & tried again,  then if that didn't work I ran in on my laptop drive & that passed some/most disc's that the desktop drive would not.    So it begs the question:  Is this problem worth exploring to see if another drive will rip the bad CD's.    

Wikipedia says:  On CDs, the rot becomes visually noticeable in two ways:   1:  When the CD is held up to a strong light, light shines through several pin-prick-sized holes.   2: Discoloration of the disc, which looks like a coffee stain on the disc.  

But why the last two or three tracks? Surely disc rot would affect all parts of the CD equally and if anything a certain sized pin prick hole in the reflective layer would affect the first few tracks more than the last few, because of the number of bits in a pinprick....?

best

David

Not in my experience,  it affected the outer edge (the last track)  With the 400+ discs I ripped I found about 20 with the problem,  all older discs.  most had only a problem with the last track,  a few has the last two only.    At that time I took a look under a 'scope & came to the belief it was acid/moisture capillary creep under the metallic layer,  in its worse state it looks like rust/coffee staining & under a 'scope it appears to be corrosion of the metallic layer.   In the cases I found with pin holes they too were predominantly around the outer edge & looked to me at the time to be the first stage of the staining.   That said with my discs dBpoweramp never failed to get a 100% rip from discs with pinholes after some TLC,  so its more than likely I have a lot more of such disc's that did not make themselves know for such investigation.

Mike-B posted:

Not in my experience,  it affected the outer edge (the last track)  With the 400+ discs I ripped I found about 20 with the problem,  all older discs.  most had only a problem with the last track,  a few has the last two only.    At that time I took a look under a 'scope & came to the belief it was acid/moisture capillary creep under the metallic layer,  in its worse state it looks like rust/coffee staining & under a 'scope it appears to be corrosion of the metallic layer.   In the cases I found with pin holes they too were predominantly around the outer edge & looked to me at the time to be the first stage of the staining.   That said with my discs dBpoweramp never failed to get a 100% rip from discs with pinholes after some TLC,  so its more than likely I have a lot more of such disc's that did not make themselves know for such investigation.

Simple maths shows that the area of an annulus is 2*(Pi)*r times the thickness of the annulus (assumed thin for the purpose of approximation). Assuming the inner radius is about 2cm and the outer 6 then a thumb mark will have bigger probability of messing up more tracks on the outside than the inside by a factor of about 3. 

Phil

David Hendon posted:

But why the last two or three tracks? Surely disc rot would affect all parts of the CD equally and if anything a certain sized pin prick hole in the reflective layer would affect the first few tracks more than the last few, because of the number of bits in a pinprick....?

best

David

A CD is like a sandwich, foil between two pieces of plastic (search how a CD is made). The last tracks are at the outside edge. The centre of the foil is further from the inner edge so that if there is a manufacturing fault or for some reason the two pieces delaminate then any foreign body, air, liquid, grease from your fingers is more likely to enter the outside edge.

Just my guess with no scientific data to prove it.

Phil and Naim have had 6 of my discs since May, they do not Rip on my Core.....They are now in my downloads folder having been ripped by a cheap pc drive , sound OK. I sent them in specifically so Naim could look at this, despite several nudges, all too busy and even Richard Dane giving a nudge. This is not new I am afraid. I first raised this when I bought the Core in January via the Core App feedback. I think like Jon Honeyball I will wait until the anniversary and contact Trevor Wilson, and congratulate, on the legendary service.

Filipe posted:

Simple maths shows that the area of an annulus is 2*(Pi)*r times the thickness of the annulus (assumed thin for the purpose of approximation). Assuming the inner radius is about 2cm and the outer 6 then a thumb mark will have bigger probability of messing up more tracks on the outside than the inside by a factor of about 3. 

............  thats not the way I see this problem when I examined my own CD corrosion damage.  It looked pretty clear that the corrosion was getting into the metallic layer from the disc outer edge.   I guess by looking around www at the disc rot pictures it is also starting across the disc surface,  so mileage will vary,  but all mine were around the edge.

David Hendon posted:

But why the last two or three tracks? Surely disc rot would affect all parts of the CD equally and if anything a certain sized pin prick hole in the reflective layer would affect the first few tracks more than the last few, because of the number of bits in a pinprick....?

best

David

But cd is clv not cav 

Mike-B posted:

Filipe posted:

Simple maths shows that the area of an annulus is 2*(Pi)*r times the thickness of the annulus (assumed thin for the purpose of approximation). Assuming the inner radius is about 2cm and the outer 6 then a thumb mark will have bigger probability of messing up more tracks on the outside than the inside by a factor of about 3. 

............  thats not the way I see this problem when I examined my own CD corrosion damage.  It looked pretty clear that the corrosion was getting into the metallic layer from the disc outer edge.   I guess by looking around www at the disc rot pictures it is also starting across the disc surface,  so mileage will vary,  but all mine were around the edge.

Change thumb print to point like defect. There are 22188 tracks on a CD with a spacing of 1.6 microns between each. Any pin prick say of  16 microns (60th millimetre) has damaged 10 tracks. I suspect that disc rot holes are probably larger. The point is there is three times more playing time at the outside than the inside. It’s just a geometric scaling factor.

Just trying to help find an explanation for our observations that the last tracks are more likely to be unreadable.

I don’t know enough about the red book formatting to be able to convert a simple model of a hole of a certain diameter in the reflective material into a probability of an uncorrectable error. 

Phil

Filipe posted:

........................

Just trying to help find an explanation for our observations that the last tracks are more likely to be unreadable.

I thought that was fairly obvious,  the last track is nearest the outer edge,  the edge is the weak spot where impurities are liable to get into the laminate layers & it creeps in/under the laminate from there.

The centre hole is just as potentially weak surely

jon honeyball posted:

The centre hole is just as potentially weak surely

 

Yes but its a much longer distance to the intro data & track start point,  but I suspect the biggest factor is the outer edge gets more laminate damaging knocks than does the centre hole.

Sure but the outer edge is only at issue for a very long cd, around 70+ minutes.

And the outer edge had several finishing methods -- from the moulding punch, to the clean slice method.

Also it doesnt matter where a specific size of hole appears on the disc, because CD is CLV not CAV, which is why it runs at about 500rpm ish at the beginning dropping to around 200rpm at the edge. The reading distance per second is the same everywhere. (I could dig out my copy of the redbook standard to find the precise values, but its around that).

And then reed solomon helps hugely here -- such a clever encode format, and the underlying 8-to-14 encode/decode method too. 

Right more good news to report on this post that I originally started at the end of last week. With the help of both various emails to Naim support, one telephone call to the same, a reply from TJ and Naim and duly also a follow email from Naim and also from all of you that have taken the time to reply to this post, as a result all matters seem to be resolved to my satisfaction, anyway.

1., Auto eject after ripping, resolved as a result of a factory reset, without losing any ripped data. 

2/. Back ups to QNAP NAS now working. The clue came this morning when out of the blue the NAS started to log warnings of failed Naim Samba logins. Removed the previous shared folder that I had created for backups this evening and reset up the share, but this time whilst creating the share ensured that Special Permissions option was set at the outset, not enabled later. This option is a new option on shares as a result of a recent firmware update on the QNAP. I am obviously blessed with the curse of firmware updates!

3. Yes errors exist, but as Jon Honeyball had previously pointed out, we ought to know about these and not except everything is wonderful. And to be fair, I am now receiving errors on occasions that are not always the last tracks. I suppose the next thing will be to see if I can hear said glitches. We will see.

Regards and Happy Christmas. :-)