nap 300dr/nana5 vs nap250dr/superlumina

Personally, from my own experience, I would much rather update my black boxes, cables, to my ears, never represent good value, as far as an improvement over the standard Naim cables.

I think their is quite a big difference in sound presentations between the two amps, and wouldn't consider them in the same league. The cables on the other hand, could never understand the price difference strictly based on sound quality.

All in MY opinion.

erm - in my experience I'd rather upgrade cables the blackboxes

The Din/XLR in particular is an essential upgrade for the Nap 250/300/500, and SL is the best cable.

my opinion ...

If the naca5 sounds good in your listening room (it didn't in my room with my set up) then I would suggest 300 every day of the week.  I see there is a set of 6m cables on the market place we ought not to refer to which may offer a discounted access to SL however, cables fall into a very subjective category and their benefits seem to be a function of speakers and room dynamics as  much as the black boxes feeding them.  Before committing, in the ideal world you should at least arrange a listen to SL and equivalent chord cables.  The conclusion is not predictable.  Unlike the black boxes question where the differences heard in a dealers will be more reliable/ likely to be replicated at home.  Whichever option appeals, try to take an objective approach before deciding and arrange an audition.

Peter

I think the question behind the question is:

Will NAP250DR with SuperLumina sound better than NAP300DR with NACA5, becasue it’s cheaper to buy?

No - it will not. It’s not just about the cables, but also about the way the power amp handles the music. Cables introduce  a degree of colouring, SuperLumina being more transparent of the two. But they will not change a fundamental sound signature of an amp. At least in my own experience owning all of the components the OP has mentioned.

Everything else being = and assuming you would ordinarily prefer the performance of the 300 then regardless of Naca or SL the 300 is going to be better.  

Superlumina are not the only upgrades

There are powerlines too.

500 series components and the statement amp come with Powerlines in the box... In the case of statement Naim outright say in the operating manual do NOT use without a Naim powerline.

take the hint. 

In some cases Naim upgrade cables bring the performance up to the point of not caring for the next black box upgrade.

the majority seems to prefer nap300dr/ naca5 vs nap 250dr/ superlumina. But analogmusic thinks the superlumina upgrade can give better results.

I have already the nap300dr,  but a friend of mine hesitates between going to nap300dr or superlumina speakers cables from his nap250dr.  Our dealer has not the superlumina.   My friend has naca5.

I read one time on the forum that some prefer the sound of the nap250 vs nap300, as some prefer nac 282 vs 252.

The best way would be to try and compare nap300dr/naca5  vs nap250dr /superlumina.....but it is not possible.

Adam Zielinski posted:

I think the question behind the question is:

Will NAP250DR with SuperLumina sound better than NAP300DR with NACA5, becasue it’s cheaper to buy?

No - it will not. It’s not just about the cables, but also about the way the power amp handles the music. Cables introduce  a degree of colouring, SuperLumina being more transparent of the two. But they will not change a fundamental sound signature of an amp. At least in my own experience owning all of the components the OP has mentioned.

thanks adam,  i think you are right.   The real question is from a friend of mine,  i have already the nap300dr.  I had before the nap250 non dr and the improvement is important. But not heard the nap250dr and don’t know how is the step between naca5 and superlumina.

The other point is that i read that some prefer the sound of the nap250 vs nap300, as some prefer nac 282 vs 252.....

But i know now where is your preference, as you had already listened to all these components at your home.

I was thinking more of the Din/XLR SL cable rather than speaker cable.

yes of course NAP 300 is a different league of upgrade, but is that always needed?

I should actually update my profile now - one of my systems is 282 with HiCapDR and NAP250DR and and another system with 252 and NAP300DR. 

And I actually like them both. 

I enjoy 282 and its exuberance. With a HiCap DR and NAP250DR it’s a very well balanced system.

NAP300DR brought to 252 what NAP 250DR somehow didn’t - greater authority over low registers - bass and mid-range.

SuperLumina brings an improvement to any amp in my opinion, especially speaker cables and PSU to Power Amp snaics. 

Adam

French Rooster, assuming I have understood your text correctly that there is a 300dr available from the local dealer, perhaps the logical starting point would be to compare the 250 v 300 with your pal's current set up and decide if he thinks the 300 represents a significant improvement.  If the answer is yes, the cables can follow and, if the money for the 300 isn't available just now, they could have this as a target when funds are available.  I personally think it better to consider cables when you have the black boxes you intend to run for a while in place.  If the answer is to stick with the 250, then I'd repeat my recommendation to widening the search to make sure that SL is the best solution for your pal's home/ system.

Peter

analogmusic posted:

I was thinking more of the Din/XLR SL cable rather than speaker cable.

yes of course NAP 300 is a different league of upgrade, but is that always needed?

For myself, i have the 300dr. My friend has the 250dr: he hesitates between  : sell the 250dr and buy 300dr or upgrade his speakers cables from naca5 to superlumina . His speakers are Proac D25.

The Proac D25 are little floorstanders, perhaps they will not benefit a lot from a better power amp as the nap300dr.  Better speakers cables may give more refinement, details....But 2X6 meters of superlumina is perhaps too much cost for a little upgrade?

Maybe i can advise him tellurium black speakers cables?

it would be helpful to know what is his preamp and source.

he has a 282/supercap dr and esoteric cd player, k01 i think....hiline interconnects.

I would go for the 300 dr if it’s a good price, it’s a big lift from the 250 dr, it’s like the speakers are twice as large, but tighter. Others may feel differently.

The box upgrade will trump any cable substitutions imo. I do see the value of upgraded cables though..a bit like salt and pepper on the kitchen table. Sort out the amps first...

French Rooster posted:

he has a 282/supercap dr and esoteric cd player, k01 i think....hiline interconnects.

I am unfamiliar with the Esoteric CD player but your friend might want to consider his source before either power amp or cables.

nigelb posted:

French Rooster posted:

he has a 282/supercap dr and esoteric cd player, k01 i think....hiline interconnects.

I am unfamiliar with the Esoteric CD player but your friend might want to consider his source before either power amp or cables.

he likes his source, It is a near 20k cd/sacd player with usb imput  . He can also play hirez with the usb imput.  

For me the naca5 is not a refined cable. But the superlumina, with the length he needs, is 80% of the price of his speakers.....

I would advise him tellerium q black or silver speakers cables.  Or a nac252...

French Rooster posted:

nigelb posted:

French Rooster posted:

he has a 282/supercap dr and esoteric cd player, k01 i think....hiline interconnects.

I am unfamiliar with the Esoteric CD player but your friend might want to consider his source before either power amp or cables.

he likes his source, It is a near 20k cd/sacd player with usb imput  . He can also play hirez with the usb imput.  

For me the naca5 is not a refined cable. But the superlumina, with the length he needs, is 80% of the price of his speakers.....

I would advise him tellerium q black or silver speakers cables.  Or a nac252...

 

 

I have auditioned at home, and at length, both a NAC 252 and a SuperLumina full loom, both of which I now own. But both auditions were done with a top notch Naim Source (NDS), so there is no way I can advise you or your friend because I believe the source to be a critical link in the chain.

I notice that you quote the features of the Esoteric CD, rather than its sound signature. Another reason why I am unable to advise.

BTW, NAC A5 might be less refined but it is very capable of revealing what the 282 and 250DR have to offer (I know as I used this speaker cable with this amp combo) but these components may or may not be at their best with the Esoteric CD player. I just raise this as an alternative line of thought. It is up to you if you want to debate this with your friend. I can understand how this might be an awkward subject as your mate has dropped £20k on his CD player.

"Maybe i can advise him tellurium black speakers cables?"

Is this person really your friend??!!!

I would only ever recommend to anyone, let alone a good friend, that they listen for themselves to speaker cables.  Buying blind is a complete gamble, and as you may have read on recent posts, if you decide on a certain brand of speaker cable, you may find yourself stuck with that brand should you later want to dip into the interconnect pond.

Back to my original advice - if your friend is really considering a 300 as one possible option, he should arrange to listen to one before dappling with cables.

Peter

I can only relate to my system I upgrade my Olive system early last year (Se profile) originally with a 250dr and Hi Line later in the year I had a home demo of S/L speaker cable these were a big improvement on the NAC A5 during the extended demo I asked my dealer to change the Hi Line for a S/L interconnect the difference was incredible the S/L interconnect and speakers cable were rather special when used together.

I did think earlier this year whether to upgrade to the full S/L loom or try a 300dr deciding on the latter the upgrade from a 250dr to the 300dr is without doubt the best value for money upgrade I had ever made the 300dr is a remarkable piece of kit.

The final pieces of the S/L loom were installed a few weeks ago the synergy of a full S/L is something else.

As with any potential upgrade personal preferences vary just take your time..

Those proacs have a pretty high impedence compared to the speakers  a lot of us use going bearly below 8Ω, though they’re not hugely sensitive experience with our usual current hungry speakers may not be much of a guide.

The only French Naim dealer I’ve dealt with just had the Unities and couldn’t solder NACA5 (never had the training). He also didn’t turn over much stock (being mainly a music retailer) so instead of having demonstration stock was selling the in store units, as a result you couldn’t get a home demo because it rendered his stock second hand whereas if they’d never left the shop they were still comsidered new, at least by the dealer. What is yourexperience of Fremch Naim dealers beyond the Uniti level, can you get home demos? Your friend is in need of a few.

thanks first for all your support.  

First , to respond to Nigel B:  the esoteric ko1x is a very musical cd/sacd player and my friend is attached to it , i can’t change that.

Northpole:  the tellerium q black have good reviews on this naim forum, a lot of members are very pleased with them. But you are right, the best is to try first and my friend will try some speakers cables before...

Pcd:  the nap300dr should be the best upgrade of course but for a lot of money.  The nac252 would be also an improvement.   But i think for not so much cash my friend can first try some other speakers cables vs the naca5, like chord or tellerium.....but there are not so many cables which can work with naim amps....

My friend live now in south of France ( Nice) , it is not easy to find a dealer with a nap 300dr, nac252 or tellerium q black.....

yeti42 posted:

Those proacs have a pretty high impedence compared to the speakers  a lot of us use going bearly below 8Ω, though they’re not hugely sensitive experience with our usual current hungry speakers may not be much of a guide.

The only French Naim dealer I’ve dealt with just had the Unities and couldn’t solder NACA5 (never had the training). He also didn’t turn over much stock (being mainly a music retailer) so instead of having demonstration stock was selling the in store units, as a result you couldn’t get a home demo because it rendered his stock second hand whereas if they’d never left the shop they were still comsidered new, at least by the dealer. What is yourexperience of Fremch Naim dealers beyond the Uniti level, can you get home demos? Your friend is in need of a few.

if i understand you well “ Proc d25 are not hugely sensitive speakers with our usual current hungry speakers “:   you say that the Proac d25 are easy to drive?   If it is the case, the nap250dr may be enough and the nap300dr may improve the sound but maybe not so much?

As for home demo, it is possible with some dealers in Paris but not a lot. In general they prefer that you bring your own components to them and listen at their shop.

My friend lives now a long way from Paris, it is more complicated for him to find a dealer with a nap300dr or nac252....and for superlumina, i think no dealer have them in France, for demonstration in a shop.

French Rooster posted:

My friend live now in south of France ( Nice) , it is not easy to find a dealer with a nap 300dr, nac252 or tellerium q black.....

There are dozens of cheap flights every day from Nice to the UK. In the context of the cost of a 300DR, it would be a small expense to take a weekend break somewhere in England and book a demo. (Excess baggage on the way home could be expensive, though!)