Entry level Naim and tonality

What you might be hearing is the passive pre amp versus an active pre amp. The Nait XS and beyond gets you into Naim's active pre amp range. As far as connecting to higher output amps, you may be hearing better control and command of your speakers.

Dan,

I don't know you and you will probably, at the end of this post, think that I am an unbearable pedantic fart, but your thread is more full of discrepancies than a Naim entry level's 'tonal' qualities. Let me explain. In my opinion, you deserve clarity and some correction. Then do whatever you want with my reply.

You can't – simply can not – judge a piano or guitar tone from a recording. The same piano can sound different according to the sound engineer or producer employed for the recording, or, much more obviously, the way it is played by the musician. To say 'they don't reproduce piano or guitar in believable tone' means nothing. I have tons of piano recordings and a number of guitar ones, and each is different. I am a professional musician and, funnily, with all in Naim I don't agree with, I have always found that it's the brand less dissimilar from real music I know. This also means nothing, of course: in fact, I said less dissimilar. What they call time and timing in audio and what some musicians call tempo in music belong to extraneous systems. On this, you can, if you so wish, believe me. 

What do you mean with tone? Because, in this context, tonal and tonality have a different meaning than what you probably intended. Tonal is a propriety of a piece of music depending on its being constructed from a system based on the formation of chords following the natural, harmonics-derived triads of superimposed thirds. This, in a tiny nutshell. Tonality is, since 1717 (to round it grossly) to 1917 (to round it grossly) the possibility to write the same piece of music having as tonal centre the Tonic triad built on any of the 12 half-tones dividing a modern octave. After that time, all became more complex. So you can compose, and play, Lush life in any of the 12 tonalities available (to play it in some of those tonalities – which Anglo-saxons call, preferably, keys – is another matter...).

CD3 (or 3.5) and Nait 3 are, admittedly, not the last word in timbral neutrality; they were thought to be energetic and entertaining. One has a perfect right to love them or hate them for the very same reason. I like them, but I prefer the greater 'neutrality' of the 2002 - 2009 Naim period; before that, it was all fun an energy; after that, it slowly became – as far as entry levels and middle-class range are concerned – a mix of sound-for-all-seasons and lifestyle posh objects.

What on Earth are tonal dynamics? It's two systems having nothing in common. Unfortunately, music critic is long disappeared, and the only talking about music are, frequently, audiophiles, which is like having regular silicone dolls' users as judges at a beauty contest. Then there's free jazz: ok, you chose the single most idiomatic and idiosyncratic type of music as far as non-integration of players and played is concerned as an example: your choice. Does a Linn Klout make the players interact better than a Naim system? Why not buy a Linn Klout? Why not go to more concerts if the sound of real music is so important for you?

Naim is not music. It is a series of average very well engineered pieces of audio equipment, which many love, and made to reproduce recorded sound. Reality is reality. Linn gear I nearly know, but on the simple grounds of aesthetics I would  rather have a filling done without anesthetics than have Linn gear (safe for the very elegant, and somehow classic, LP12).

Now, in spite of the fact that I am aware that all I wrote, at least about music and tonality, is of cruel exactitude, being it my job since 40 years, I admit that this thread is a good candidate for the most opinionated, boring and pedantic post of 2017, and am ready to be not only moderated, but actually banned. If this should happen, I will be spared the pain of having to periodically read (I can't resist, I just can't help it!) confused ideas expressed in approximated terms.

(Richard, how many points down the List Of Virtuous Members will this bring me? I was #57, and in spite of my effort to sound as trenchant and sarcastic as other members who happily float in the first decade, I can't honestly hope to be prized for this.)

Dan, nothing personal: it's just life, and I am just a gigolo.

Is it a piano and a guitar ? A steel jumbo played standing up or a nylon classical played sitting down ? 

These tonality indicators are only found when using expensive cables.    

I prefer a stripped down naked sound akin to Nebraska, but more refined!

TOBYJUG posted:

 

These tonality indicators are only found when using expensive cables.    

Sometimes it is more cost-effective to change the piano if the music one imagines needs to match what is emanating from the boxes (especially where cables are concerned!)

Max, I was going to write something along those lines of yours, but not half so eloquently or knowledgeably.

While I have a great deal of respect for Max, I have to politely disagree.

Naim sounds like music to me... I don't find live music which is amplified from a PA that attractive.

As for comparing to a real piano, well no speaker is  a real musical instrument so where does this expectation come from? Next we will say HDTV isn't like real life? 

as for the realism of a NAP compared to other power amps..... hmmm interesting.... 

which speaker cable to do you use on a Naim NAP, and which one on a Linn KLout. The same one?

Superlumina SC sounds more real than NACA5... but so expensive.

It also depends on the source.

I have 2 friends with a Chord Dave, and with 552 preamp and NAP 500 AND Superlumina full loom and the hi-end sonus faber speakers (40,000 USD cost and above)  it is as close to a live event as I ever heard in my 46 years on this planet especially with some DSD recordings.

I think Naim tries to tune their amps for being as neutral as possible, which may not match very well with some speakers, but after years of listening to my Chord digital sources on Naim and Non-Naim amplifiers, any lack of realism isn't because of a Naim NAP.

try a different speaker.

You didn't disclose which speaker you use.  

I didn’t intend to start that much of fuzz... I run classic entry level combo of Unity2 with Neat SX2 Motives NACA5 and Naim PowerLine. Sounds fantastic in terms of intentions and flow. But to my set of ears - not quite right timbre wise. And I only figured out when I started mix different power amps with that (yes using same cables) just for fun. I do not listen other systems and do not go to HIFI shows. Go to plenty gigs though. I lived with Naim gear for last 20 years. What I meant that their entry level systems make trade off of punchy line on accurate timbre if you wish on some of the instruments. And that became obvious to me just recently. That’s all. 

fair enough if it's the same cable.

Can't comment much more as I don't know Neat speakers.

While I’m going to touch this topic with great trepidation I will say having the Uniti2 and the Uniti Star in my house this weekend, doing different comparisons of the same music I have to say the Star has better control of tonal colors (if you will). Not to mention a much blacker background creating better space between both notes and instruments. Lastly I hadn’t noticed this in the nearly 3 yrs I had the U2 but now with the Star in place I feel like the U2 had a little smearing at higher volumes. I honestly thought the 2 pieces of kit would sound nearly identical but there’s some very noticeable improvements with the Star. I’ll probably pack up the U2 quicker then I was expecting to. 

When you use a power amp with the Uniti, as well as getting the benefit of the power amp itself, the Uniti’s power supply no longer needs to power the internal power amp, which should bring improvements to the streamer and preamp parts. So it’s all working better, and I don’t think one can say that it’s just the power amp making a difference and that the Naim power amp is in some ways inadequate. 

One of the most significant improvements from climbing the Naim tree is that music becomes more natural and real. Words like tonal accuracy and timbre don’t mean much to me, perhaps because I’m not a musician, or maybe because I’m a bit dim, but natural and real do work for me. Does a piano sound like a piano? Or a guitar like a guitar? I don’t believe that there is a specific place in the hierarchy where one can say, ah yes, the intention, flow and timbre are now all there. Maybe it’s the case that the Uniti2 simply isn’t good enough to give you what you want. It may be time to listen to something better to find what the minimum level is that pushes all the right buttons. 

analogmusic posted:

While I have a great deal of respect for Max, I have to politely disagree.

Naim sounds like music to me... I don't find live music which is amplified from a PA that attractive.  

But I politely agree! I didn't say that Naim doesn't sound like music... I said (infinite times) that one thing is music (a unique, irreplaceable and unrepeatable experience) and another its fixed, and repeatable ad libitum, reproduction; and that Naim's is the less dissimilar sound from that of live music. Thanks for your respect.

M.

I meant interactions - not intentions. Bloody spellcheck. As for higher system I think that it has all gone too far - this set is around $10k tax included and this is crazy amount of money that most of the people would consider to spend on music reproduction devices. And I think that power section of Unity2 sucks. 

Far more annoying than the sound of pianos on hifi, is the sound of many pianos.

I had a choir rehearsal this week (its the time of the year) and I had to play a piano having a serious identity crisis. It could be a bad slow harpsichord, or an ugly piano. It was somewhere in the middle. It was not Gloria In Excelsis Deo I'm afraid.

Besides the low end piano's, there are the high end pianos. Many high end pianos are in exile in way too small houses. Think all Bosendorfers, Steinways etc ... all waste of money if they are in a too small room or a room having hard reflections.

There is so much piano music played on the wrong piano's these days. Think of Mozart on a Steinway - well - it could work,  but only in a dead room or a large concerthall.

The nicest piano concert I've been was in a smallish concert hall ( an old town hall ) having a beautiful restored Erard grand piano. It was played by some talented student and he was keen enough to choose the right music for that piano.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Far more annoying than the sound of pianos on hifi, is the sound of many pianos.

I had a choir rehearsal this week (its the time of the year) and I had to play a piano having a serious identity crisis. It could be a bad slow harpsichord, or an ugly piano. It was somewhere in the middle. It was not Gloria In Excelsis Deo I'm afraid.

Besides the low end piano's, there are the high end pianos. Many high end pianos are in exile in way too small houses. Think all Bosendorfers, Steinways etc ... all waste of money if they are in a too small room or a room having hard reflections.

There is so much piano music played on the wrong piano's these days. Think of Mozart on a Steinway - well - it could work,  but only in a dead room or a large concerthall.

The nicest piano concert I've been was in a smallish concert hall ( an old town hall ) having a beautiful restored Erard grand piano. It was played by some talented student and he was keen enough to choose the right music for that piano.

Love your nick... ????

All I can add to this topic is the obvious that you just may prefer the Linn presentation to the Naim version of music reproduction, it's not the first time or the last that some do indeed prefer Linn electronics.

Try a SN2 with a HiCap if the 200 didn't do it for you. It just may surprise you. It really surprised me, and I was once an owner of a 250-2 based system.

Well the problem is solved.

A pair of Heed mono locks heals all this stuff. No issues and no discrepancies no more. Pure fun. Saw Dead Kennedys yesterday - sounds as great on the Naim/Heed combo.

I guess for a fraction of NAP 250.2 price.

Cheers,

Dan.

Mesak posted:

Well the problem is solved.

A pair of Heed mono locks heals all this stuff. No issues and no discrepancies no more. Pure fun. Saw Dead Kennedys yesterday - sounds as great on the Naim/Heed combo.

I guess for a fraction of NAP 250.2 price.

Cheers,

Dan.

So basically, you don't like the "Naim sound" of their power amps.
Good that you've found amplification that suits you.
But I thought a pair of Heed monblocks cost more than the 250 but what do I know?

blythe posted:

Mesak posted:

Well the problem is solved.

A pair of Heed mono locks heals all this stuff. No issues and no discrepancies no more. Pure fun. Saw Dead Kennedys yesterday - sounds as great on the Naim/Heed combo.

I guess for a fraction of NAP 250.2 price.

Cheers,

Dan.

So basically, you don't like the "Naim sound" of their power amps.
Good that you've found amplification that suits you.
But I thought a pair of Heed monblocks cost more than the 250 but what do I know?

I don’t think that I am experienced or knowledgeable enough to say that. Something different bothered me with entry level Naim combos I have had. I tried NAP 200 with what I have and was not very convinced for the price it was. I hear that Unity2 is very good pre/source. An used pair of Heed monoblock is cheaper than used NAP200 and clicks in very nicely. it is fun. I love Naim gear but unfortunately as good as it gets it goes to Bentley sphere as it goes with cars. I don’t really want Bentley. 

Cheers.

Now it makes me wonder what other new brands are without “ aristocracy” of setting an audio set for $80k that playing music. Heed is certainly one of them.