System Synergy.

Read my last post about synergy.

You would think that running an all Naim system sans speakers - synergy would be a given. The sheer volume of boxes available with different vintages and the constant rumbles in this forum suggests that it's not something easy to achieve.     So well done you.     Although don't forget synergy is a moving target, just a small change can upset it.

I know this will sound dogmatic but you need some SBLs... 

I disagree totally.  Naim makes and is an expert in electronics.  Hard to say the speaker line was the same...A company can do only so many things well.  Buying Naim speakers because you are a Naim cheerleader, or expecting some kind of "synergy" which makes zero sense is ridiculous.  Do all your pots and pans and knives match?  Is food better if it was made by an all All Clad system.  If you buy Gucci shoes must you also buy Gucci shirt, tie, suit?  

I rest my case

Greg, it was tongue in cheek! But have you heard we’ll set up SBLs? Naim made outstanding ‘speakers back in the day....

I am sure Bob loves his S3.4s.

Stu

Yeah I really cannot see SBL's beating my 3.4's synergy or no.  Naim Audio make some really great amps but speakers are not their strong point.

Well set up, and well driven, they are very hard to beat. They are capable of communication and dynamics that I’ve not heard beaten. 

Speakers and their portrayal  of music are very personal, this is important to understand. I have owned SBL,s and for their time they were great. I have and would still like to own SL2,s. I now own PMC 25.26....... I have never heard the Ovator series. But I do not agree with the sentiment that  NAim  are second best In this field IMO.

A chap came round a while ago and listened to my system. He said he was surprised that the sound was so good, as he’d always been led to believe that Naim speakers were bad, though he’d never heard any. It’s all moot now, as they no longer make them. There are loads of good speakers around these days, it’s all a matter of personal taste and choice, and I certainly find no need to say that X is better than Y. One person’s better is another’s worse. 

Agreed Nigel, personal taste is the major factor with ‘speakers. But for people to say that Naim did not make great speakers is a rather ignorant position. Fine if you don’t like them but....

A mildly agrivated Stu.

stuart.ashen posted:

Agreed Nigel, personal taste is the major factor with ‘speakers. But for people to say that Naim did not make great speakers is a rather ignorant position. Fine if you don’t like them but....

A mildly agrivated Stu.

But it does beg the question why Naim stopped making speakers and teamed-up with Focal.

Dave

stuart.ashen posted:

Greg, it was tongue in cheek! But have you heard we’ll set up SBLs? Naim made outstanding ‘speakers back in the day....

I am sure Bob loves his S3.4s.

Stu

Stu

I was not really replying to you per se, but I have seen like 100's of posts on this Naim BB stating something to the nature of "You must buy Naim speakers".  I just don't get it

But it does not bother me as much as when people say "Don't get new speakers, you are much better off spending 10K on a Naim Fraim"

At least with them being discontinued we can’t say that any more. There is no point in saying ‘get some SL2s’ when there are only about 300 pairs in existence. Anyway, people might be better if buying Fraim is their existing stand is poor. It’s all about being appropriate. 

Or cables.   

Hungryhalibut posted:

At least with them being discontinued we can’t say that any more. There is no point in saying ‘get some SL2s’ when there are only about 300 pairs in existence. Anyway, people might be better if buying Fraim is their existing stand is poor. It’s all about being appropriate. 

HH

Are you trying to torment me?    

The interesting thing about the OP post is that synergy between contemporary Naim units might be a significant factor, not just between CB, Olive or Classic series. 2004 would mean such units will/should have been serviced and would therefor be more similar to new units if there is any real difference at all. Late SL2s or the then newer S400 etc would be natural synergistic partners to such a system. 

I understand that Bob is not a fan of Naim speakers which is absolutely fair enough. However, I use a Classic system bought around 2004 with 2000 SBLs and it is a fine combination. Stock cables and A5 too (sorry Greg ). I would agree with Bob that there is a certain synergy to be expected with this system. All imho etc...

Stu

Dave,

I think Naim stopped making speakers as they were expensive to make given the high degree of engineering and innovative design. And there was a view that they were not as good as some of the competition, a view I don’t share of course.

They also were originally a bit of an effort to set up, at least the Ibbles. Must have put potential buyers off.

This is a great shame for Naimees that we’re fans....

Stu

Erm... there are plenty of very good speakers out there. 

Not that many good boundary designs however.

Going back to Bob’s opening post, I think he is absolutely right and that there is a good deal to be said for synergy. You make a change and suddenly everything clicks into place. The point about things being contemporaneous is also often very true and one hears quite frequently of examples of DR power supplies being added to older equipment and it not quite working. I’ve found that the SL leads and the DR power amps work exceptionally well together, perhaps because they were both designed as part of the Statement project. I’ve also been reminded recently of how important amplifier and speaker matching is, with the 300 kicking the speakers into life in a way that the 250, excellent as it is, simply didn’t do, which of course you only realise with hindsight. Some things just work particularly well together and the trick is knowing which things those are. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Going back to Bob’s opening post, I think he is absolutely right and that there is a good deal to be said for synergy. You make a change and suddenly everything clicks into place. The point about things being contemporaneous is also often very true and one hears quite frequently of examples of DR power supplies being added to older equipment and it not quite working. I’ve found that the SL leads and the DR power amps work exceptionally well together, perhaps because they were both designed as part of the Statement project. I’ve also been reminded recently of how important amplifier and speaker matching is, with the 300 kicking the speakers into life in a way that the 250, excellent as it is, simply didn’t do, which of course you only realise with hindsight. Some things just work particularly well together and the trick is knowing which things those are. 

and that is where a really good dealer comes in......

I was indeed advised of that particular match by a very good dealer, though the results were better than expected. Which is always good. 

IMHO, I have always considered Naim speakers as a mandatory tool to attain maximum potential from their amplifiers in an active system. Driven passively Naim speakers have never been really competitive with any of the big names that specialize in loudspeaker making.  

cat345 posted:

IMHO, I have always considered Naim speakers as a mandatory tool to attain maximum potential from their amplifiers in an active system. Driven passively Naim speakers have never been really competitive with any of the big names that specialize in loudspeaker making.  

I've heard many pairs of passive Naim speakers sounding excellent, and I've used my previous SBLs, SL2s, and my current DBLs passive for a short time. However, these speakers were all designed to be actively driven, and activation totally transforms them all. Those who dislike Naim speakers really need to hear them active before passing final judgement. 

Using DBLs passive at the moment. Even passive with a single 250 they sound "blimey" though the amp runs out of steam past 11:00 on the volume dial. 

Picking up a new snaxo 362 on Friday.

Merry Christmas. ????

Willy.