Guess the line being discontinued!

Harry posted:

. Where are they going to magically find a new DAC which wipes the floor with the existing one? 

Where are they going to find a DAC that improves on 10 year old technology?

yeah you’re right, no advancements here at all. 

That ol’ Naim magic ....... can’t be beat. 

.sjb

Ravenswood10 posted:

RM posted:

Hi All, just placed an order for nds/555ps dr yesterday (moving from NDX) so somewhat disturbing to imagine nds could soon be updated and those updates may not be fitted retrospectively. I would hope Naim would factor existing loyal clients into their decision making. 

I have the same combination and it'll be a very long time until I move on. If you liked it enough to order the chances are you'll still like it going forward. No matter what they do it'll be a very hard act to follow so I wouldn't worry in the least. Anyhow, this is all speculation - along with previous hints that the Classic range was about to be junked. I think that one was squashed too. Anyhow if Naim is planning a Statement level streamer it'll be way outside my price point

 

True and that’s what I have told myself, but to see this on the very day I ordered took some shine off the excitement for a while. And to Harry’s point above, agree more technology does not necessarily mean better musicality. I decided on nds after comparing it to NDX/XP’s dr with chord Dave as similarly priced combination. Dave clearly a very advanced dac but nds / 555ps sounded more musical and involving. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

My personal wish is for a higher level streaming preamp that doesn’t have an inbuilt power supply and can use both feeds from a 555PS. It may be that this is simply impossible given the constraints of fitting the streaming and preamp components into a single box. Though Linn manage with the Klimax DSM. 

Yeah but,  all LInn's incl the very excellent KDS are powered by a SMPS,  maybe a way for the future,  a Naim that doesn't hum ???  that'll be a first.

RM posted:

Hi All, just placed an order for nds/555ps dr yesterday (moving from NDX) so somewhat disturbing to imagine nds could soon be updated and those updates may not be fitted retrospectively. I would hope Naim would factor existing loyal clients into their decision making. 

Whether this current rumour is imminent or not, I don’t think there is much argument that within the next 12 -18 months we will see a new set of streamers. I don’t think Naim will do any factoring so you have to be happy with this likely scenario or else be getting a very good price currently (like cars at end of model cycle). Undoubtedly (as is happening to old Uniti products which I have 2 of) prices will fall dramatically on s/h legacy streamers once the new ones arrive even though my SuperUniti sounds as good as ever. 

.sjb

RM posted:

Ravenswood10 posted:

RM posted:

Hi All, just placed an order for nds/555ps dr yesterday (moving from NDX) so somewhat disturbing to imagine nds could soon be updated and those updates may not be fitted retrospectively. I would hope Naim would factor existing loyal clients into their decision making. 

I have the same combination and it'll be a very long time until I move on. If you liked it enough to order the chances are you'll still like it going forward. No matter what they do it'll be a very hard act to follow so I wouldn't worry in the least. Anyhow, this is all speculation - along with previous hints that the Classic range was about to be junked. I think that one was squashed too. Anyhow if Naim is planning a Statement level streamer it'll be way outside my price point

 

True and that’s what I have told myself, but to see this on the very day I ordered took some shine off the excitement for a while. And to Harry’s point above, agree more technology does not necessarily mean better musicality. I decided on nds after comparing it to NDX/XP’s dr with chord Dave as similarly priced combination. Dave clearly a very advanced dac but nds / 555ps sounded more musical and involving. 

 

So you made the right choice, choosing what sounded best to you. Obviously there will be new product development, but as has been said here, it doesn't necessarily mean it will sound any better. The NDS is a very good streamer. If the replacement or ND555 or Statement level version is to sound sufficiently better to warrant its place in the product line, you can bet your record collection that it will also cost a shed load more. Then you'd have to wrestle with the highly subjective question of whether the improvement represents value for money to you. Furthermore, given the long delays between publicity and availability of the Uniti range, I cannot imagine Naim will wish to repeat that experience, so any new model will need to be tested to death before release.

So for now just sit back and enjoy your new streamer. Whatever happens, it will always sound very, very good.

I kind of doubt that, but interesting thought... I don’t believe Naim have that sort of expertise, designing DACs is its own field.. and I doubt they would want to contract in with all the hassle and risk that goes with that... also you woul need several iterations of prototype before I suspect you would be getting close to the quality Naim requires.

The Texas Instruments DAC chips (PCM1704K) as Burr Brown is no more and is simply a marketing brand now for TI,  used are renown but long in the tooth, and for a few years TI have not recommended them for new designs... they are relatively expensive and variable to make for a given quality compared to new devices, are PCM input only and the DAC chip internal DSP filters are long in the tooth as well, however Naim I believe run with them disabled .... but there is a fair amount of specialist experience out there on PCM1704K implementation which as we know is crucial for the end result which I’m sure helps perpetuate them

i would be surprised if a new DAC/Streamer uses this device however.. I think Naim will be moving on, but with third party devices... but I suspect still TI. It is however to my mind the DSP that will be interesting and whether they still use the Analog Devices SHARC processors, albeit the very latest architectures .. as that is an area that has massively evolved in very recent years.

T38.45 posted:

Buy the best DAC and use a rendu or auralic G2 or innuos as frontend. With this, you de-couple formats and services from the „Sound Engine“. I run such a setup for years and I‘m always up to date. Many here in the forum did this as well... look for the hugos, daves, etc :-)

ralf

 

A fine idea.  But for me, too much variability; too many options.  I solved that by buying the "best" Naim had on offer (NDS/555) and love it and am decoupled from the 'what to buy' process henceforth! 

I was going to a  Linn demo at my dealers recently so looked up the product on the Linn website. In doing so I stumbled on their vacant page which had a few openings for people capable of field array programming for digital conversion, just like the Chord use ( probably got the words wrong). So it’s not impossible that Naim could do something similar, though debatable they could get their Naim sound?

Bart posted:

I solved that by buying the "best" Naim had on offer (NDS/555) and love it and am decoupled from the 'what to buy' process henceforth! 

I'm also a resident of Hook's NDS Retirement Village.

Gazza posted:

I was going to a  Linn demo at my dealers recently so looked up the product on the Linn website. In doing so I stumbled on their vacant page which had a few openings for people capable of field array programming for digital conversion, just like the Chord use ( probably got the words wrong). So it’s not impossible that Naim could do something similar, though debatable they could get their Naim sound?

I reckon they could get the Naim sound as I suspect a lot of that comes from the analogue stages... as far as Chord Electronics go I believe they are reliant on Rob Watts for their current DAC designs which strikes me as a single point of failure.. or a great bargaining chip if you are Mr Watts   and his designs are certainly a personal evolution over many years... stemming back from a background in logic hardware design. ( I think I have that right)... 

Bart posted:

 

 

I solved that by buying the "best" Naim had on offer (NDS/555) and love it and am decoupled from the 'what to buy' process henceforth! 

Likewise, the music couldn't sound better, chez Dave, and no matter what might be round the corner in the planning stages, I have respectfully withdrawn from any future upgrades ................ honest! 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Well I hear with some of the recent  changes in the Naim leadership

 

Interesting - what are those Simon ?

James, I can’t really comment here, but I understand there have been a few changes in personnel as well as focus.

Ah ok - thought i'd missed a forum announcement 

I hope it includes someone visually literate in control of a new website. The existing ‘new’ one is gawd-awful.

G

Hungryhalibut posted:

As some have said above, the existing streamers will be just as good as they are now even when they are superseded by their new platform replacements. That said, I’d suggest that anyone upgrading on the assumption that the new platform will be retrofittable into the current boxes should be prepared for a disappointment when it is announced that this will not be possible. 

My guess is that the 272 will not sound broken one it’s successor is there 

What are the chances for a streamer/preamp like the 272 but NDS level streamer and higher end pre-amp close to 552 in 1 box but without internal PS ?

dave marshall posted:

Bart posted:

 

 

I solved that by buying the "best" Naim had on offer (NDS/555) and love it and am decoupled from the 'what to buy' process henceforth! 

Likewise, the music couldn't sound better, chez Dave, and no matter what might be round the corner in the planning stages, I have respectfully withdrawn from any future upgrades ................ honest! 

For me it's two-fold.  First, obviously, NDS/555PS sounds wonderful.  It's more hi fi than anyone NEEDS to enjoy music.  Second, the price-point of 'what's next' almost certainly will surpass what I'm interested in spending on hi fi in 2018.  (The exception would be "better" performance at a substantially lower price, but such would be unreasonable to expect.)  I have other things in 2018 to spend my disposable income on; give the quality of my present in-home hi fi, more of it is not on the list!

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Gazza posted:

I was going to a  Linn demo at my dealers recently so looked up the product on the Linn website. In doing so I stumbled on their vacant page which had a few openings for people capable of field array programming for digital conversion, just like the Chord use ( probably got the words wrong). So it’s not impossible that Naim could do something similar, though debatable they could get their Naim sound?

I reckon they could get the Naim sound as I suspect a lot of that comes from the analogue stages... as far as Chord Electronics go I believe they are reliant on Rob Watts for their current DAC designs which strikes me as a single point of failure.. or a great bargaining chip if you are Mr Watts   and his designs are certainly a personal evolution over many years... stemming back from a background in logic hardware design. ( I think I have that right)... 

John Franks has a background in Aeronautical engineering, and would have thought of single point of failure.

Rob Watts is also a kind and professional man, anyway after Blu2 and next ADC called the Davina, not sure he wants to program for more than a million taps anyway ?

He would not leave Chord in risk of failure in any case.

All the knowledge that makes a Naim amplifier was not kept to just JV anyway, it has been passed on within Naim and the latest DR amps are very good indeed while maintaining the Naim Rhythmic qualities.

jsaudio posted:

What are the chances for a streamer/preamp like the 272 but NDS level streamer and higher end pre-amp close to 552 in 1 box but without internal PS ?

Nobody knows. I'd say slim but never say never.

NDS/252 level seems logical. The NDS isn't a 500 level streamer. There isn't one. Yet. It's often seen (among other things) with the 552 and Statement because it's the best streamer they've done.  So far. An analogous situation at present, to the status of the CDS3 before the CD555 was introduced.

The tech in the current streamers is getting long in the tooth. The new Uniti range is a much better and more upgradable architecture. I would image it would be foolish on their part to not move that value into their upmarket streamers... I really like my 272 and hope they have some kind of trade-in/upgrade program but am not holding my breath. The Uniti seems a complete architectural green-field. Should be interesting to see what is in store for the "Classic" range.

DUPREE posted:

The tech in the current streamers is getting long in the tooth. The new Uniti range is a much better and more upgradable architecture. I would image it would be foolish on their part to not move that value into their upmarket streamers... 

It seems to me it would be very short sighted for Naim to have developed the Uniti streaming platform without plans how it would be expanded upwards into Classic series and also down into MuSo v2.

Given the Uniti hardware design was pretty much done 12 months before it was actually available, hopefully in those 12 months Naim have been working on other streamers since.  What comes to fruition is yet to be seen ... but I would imagine looking at the current lineup would give some ideas,

Naim have explicitly said (on the forum and iirc elsewhere) that the basic “Classic” design will remain.

Eloise posted:

DUPREE posted:

The tech in the current streamers is getting long in the tooth. The new Uniti range is a much better and more upgradable architecture. I would image it would be foolish on their part to not move that value into their upmarket streamers... 

It seems to me it would be very short sighted for Naim to have developed the Uniti streaming platform without plans how it would be expanded upwards into Classic series and also down into MuSo v2.

Given the Uniti hardware design was pretty much done 12 months before it was actually available, hopefully in those 12 months Naim have been working on other streamers since.  What comes to fruition is yet to be seen ... but I would imagine looking at the current lineup would give some ideas,

Naim have explicitly said (on the forum and iirc elsewhere) that the basic “Classic” design will remain.

I'm very curious to see how Naim will upgrade the "Classic" range building on the experience they have gathered with the Uniti range. The current Naim classic line consists, among others, of NDS, NDX, HDX, CDX2, DAC, DAC-V1 and NAC-N 272.

For a "new NDX" to be able to compete against microRendu, ultraRendu, sMS-200ultra, etc. it would have to be Roon ready certified, support internet radio, Tidal, Qobuz, LMS, CA, Airplay, etc. Such a "bareSuperAtom" would allow Naim to replace NDS, DAC and DAC-V1 with one or more "superDACs". Or they could decide to add Roon readiness, Airplay, CA, Qobuz, etc. to a set of new streamers, perhaps with integrated pre-amplifiers.

No matter what they do: the times one would buy an NDX (with integrated DAC!) to feed a DAC are definitely over. The new "Classic" range will need to be more straightforward and more understandable than the current one, I believe.

It'll be interesting to see if Naim decide to separate the dac from the renderer in high-end devices.

To my relatively uneducated brain, renderer features and dac features seem rather independent of each other.  Stuff like Roon (and brand of the day online music services) come along and we want our renderers to be compatible.  The dac could care less.  I understand why many have gone to separates, but as I posted earlier its too much for me to wrap my hands around presently - reading reviews, trying, and really not being able to try without purchasing. 

I’m not very optimistic... my reasoning:

- on the “front end” front NAIM is behind when it comes to Roon and streaming services integration

 - on the DAC front itself NAIM has no IP of its own (contrast this with the NOS school of Metrum or Totaldac, the “ring” approach of dSC or the FPGA school or the DSD approaches of Meitner or Playback Designs); as others have said, the “unique selling point” of NAIM in the digital products is the analogue stage implementation.

i may be wrong but the new Uniti platform only touches (and improves) WiFi  and buffering but does not touch the above two key areas. 

That does not mean the current products are not good -what HiFi uses NDS/555 as the reference digital source after all- but I don’t see how NAIM can compete with the digital source leaders at this point.