network streaming tweaks

French Rooster posted:

vtpcnk posted:

cisco 2960 with fiber optic :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cisco...4:g:ARMAAOSwuk1Z1MBT

but there is no fiber optic output on naim streamers.....?   how use this?

Exactly.... hence why a lot of this thread is like tone control fiddling as opposed to real technical betterment...just simply wire up from your switch or router switch port, sit back, and enjoy your tunes...

If there are fundamental concerns over sound leading to people 'looping back' fibre connections then surely logic would dictate getting something with tone controls or a more sophisticated solution that allows you to tweak the sound such as convolution.

I am willing to be you would get a better 'upgrade' by turning the fridge off when listening to music, logic has to kick in somewhere.

Don't mean to change the subject, but I just have a question about connecting a rel T7i to a nova ?  I was wondering if anyone here has a T7i  or any other rel sub running with a Nova and what kind connection you are using the T7i ?

Freedomsounds posted:

Don't mean to change the subject, but....

I think changing the subject is exactly  what you mean - and I suspect quite a few people reading it will breathe a sigh of relief at that!

I think the whole network tweaking thing appeals to a particular individual and the rest of us myself included can become lost, confused and eventually disinterested because it just doesn't make sense and people say that getting an analogue source like a record player running correctly is way too much faffing about.

Exactly Bob-t-B,    I would however say network tweaking thing appeals to some,  the rest are either lost & confused,  or are disinterested because they know it doesn't make sense.      As Simon-i-S says ..... wire up from your switch or router switch port, sit back, and enjoy your tunes 

I would think there is some definite benefits to these tweaks up to a point but after that it becomes a combination of OCD, Placebo and a large dollop of confirmation bias for good measure! 

I have been gradually replacing my home network components with items from Ubiquiti’s range (they have excellent wireless access points and software that allows very flexible control of the network).  Ubiquiti produce an 8 port switch that also accepts two sfp modules.  These are not cheap but I decided to experiment and have a 20 metre optical link between the switch that my server is connected to and the one connected to my NDS.  That means I need no separate media converters because the switches do it all themselves.  I liked dealing with optical cable, it’s very thin and flexible compared to ethernet cable, though is pre-terminated for amateurs like me which presents its own issues.  This all works very well and sounds fantastic but (1) the last lap from switch to NDS is ethernet (2) I don’t know how good, bad or indifferent Ubiquiti switches are in terms of extraneous electrical noise and (3) I don’t know if it would sound any different if the network was ethernet throughout.  If Naim produces an NDS 555 and if it accepts sfp modules I could be all optical and, who knows, that might be beneficial.

Lol

100 mbps is only 12.5 mb per second.

naim streamers use 100 mb or 100 mbps ethernet?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

French Rooster posted:

vtpcnk posted:

cisco 2960 with fiber optic :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cisco...4:g:ARMAAOSwuk1Z1MBT

but there is no fiber optic output on naim streamers.....?   how use this?

Exactly.... hence why a lot of this thread is like tone control fiddling as opposed to real technical betterment...just simply wire up from your switch or router switch port, sit back, and enjoy your tunes...

so sfp separate module can’t be connected to the 2960?   the glc -lh-sm?

Jonathan H posted:

I have been gradually replacing my home network components with items from Ubiquiti’s range (they have excellent wireless access points and software that allows very flexible control of the network).  Ubiquiti produce an 8 port switch that also accepts two sfp modules.  These are not cheap but I decided to experiment and have a 20 metre optical link between the switch that my server is connected to and the one connected to my NDS.  That means I need no separate media converters because the switches do it all themselves.  I liked dealing with optical cable, it’s very thin and flexible compared to ethernet cable, though is pre-terminated for amateurs like me which presents its own issues.  This all works very well and sounds fantastic but (1) the last lap from switch to NDS is ethernet (2) I don’t know how good, bad or indifferent Ubiquiti switches are in terms of extraneous electrical noise and (3) I don’t know if it would sound any different if the network was ethernet throughout.  If Naim produces an NDS 555 and if it accepts sfp modules I could be all optical and, who knows, that might be beneficial.

so you need two ubiquiti switches to make an optical bridge ?   is there a dc output ( 5v or 12v) on this switch ?

French Rooster posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

French Rooster posted:

vtpcnk posted:

cisco 2960 with fiber optic :

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cisco...4:g:ARMAAOSwuk1Z1MBT

but there is no fiber optic output on naim streamers.....?   how use this?

Exactly.... hence why a lot of this thread is like tone control fiddling as opposed to real technical betterment...just simply wire up from your switch or router switch port, sit back, and enjoy your tunes...

so sfp separate module can’t be connected to the 2960?   the glc -lh-sm?

On some 2960 models you can connect SFPs on the uplink ports, but Naim streamers currently don’t support SFPs so one needs to use twisted pair Ethernet to connect to Naim streamers...

Do you mean does this Ubiquiti switch supply power over ethernet?  The answer to that is yes so my WiFi access points all run off these switches with just an ethernet cable and no separate power.  If you mean do they use a wall wart or a kettle lead, it’s a kettle lead.  The power supply is integrated so it can’t be changed.  My network layout means I have to have two switches 20 metres apart.  They could have been connected by an ethernet cable but for the relatively modest additional cost of the versions that accept sfp modules I thought it would be interesting to try optical, because I was completely ignorant about what it was and how it worked.

Thank you Freedomsounds for your comment.  I didn’t mean to say that the system sounds fantastic because of the optical part.  It does indeed sound fantastic, but that’s entirely down to Naim.  I hope I made it clear that I had no idea whether using an ethernet cable instead would make the sound any different; I haven’t tried that because it works as it is.

hey all , i think it is agreed that to use a switch between the router and streamer is beneficial. but is it necessary for the nas or compter running the upnp to also be connected to the switch? is there any disadvantage in it being connected to the router instead with only the streamer being connected to the switch? reason i am asking is that i have a 200 mbps connection and there are a lot of reports that a switch could degrade  that speed. or if i used a 10/100 switch.

also if i had a unitiqute hooked to a wifi extender - can i also put a switch between them with a nas connected to the switch? would that work?

appreciate the insights.

Hi, you don’t necessarily need a switch between router switch-port and streamer... if you have a descent router switch-port in the first place, and a low quality switch might actually cause a SQ degrade on your streamer. Remember most home network routers these days have very capable switches built in and so makes a lot of sense to use them, KIS (Keep it simple) . If you want to use a separate switch for whatever reason, then it makes sense and is simplest on many home networks to connect everything to that switch for optimum switching performance .

Looking at throughputs is not simply a case at looking at sync speeds alone but they are related. However in your case if using a separate switch, I would aim to have a 1Gbps uplink connection between switch and your router. Many Cisco 2960 switches support this for this reason for example, whilst using Fast Ethernet distribution ports.

The idea is to route the important connection between streamer & NAS through the switch,  the router connection is less important.   Having the NAS traffic go via router & then via switch makes no sense.   

Don’t confuse broadband/internet line speed connection  with switch or other network device ‘speeds’   

Mike-B posted:

The idea is to route the important connection between streamer & NAS through the switch,  the router connection is less important.   Having the NAS traffic go via router & then via switch makes no sense.   

Don’t confuse broadband/internet line speed connection  with switch or other network device ‘speeds’   

Now I am confused...I was thinking that I need a switch to isolate my gear from the router.I currently have my Core and 272 hard wired with Ethernet to my router.How do I know if my router is good enough as a switch?All this talk about fibre optic bridges etc.,had me thinking I am missing something...but am I really?To me it sounds good as is,but I guess I would not know if it can be improved,unless I buy all of these things.

NQ, yes there is a lot loose terminology used on the forum that can confuse....especially with so called ‘fibre bridges’ and home routers..

Essentially a switch directs frames of data between devices connected to it. The switch allows the devices connected to it to send these frames concurrently and in both directions at the same time. Therefore on a switch for most  (unicast) data the data only goes between the appropriate ports required to convey that data... 

A router is specifically a device than joins networks, such as the internet to your home network subnet, and facilitates the routing of data packets  between the networks. (Routers route packets between networks, switch switch frames within a single network)

Now most home network routers, are actually hybrids of a switch, Wifi access point, router and modem... it’s a mouthful so we just say ‘router’ or ‘broadband router’. However we can just as easily use the switch function in these home ‘routers’ as we can a separate switch. Think of it being like a Naim streamer, is actually a streamer and DAC combined or you can separate out.

Many  years ago, some home network routers were poorly specified, as most people at that time used the internet simply for web and email which are not demanding, and these led to a then bad reputation for some home routers not being able to switch effectively as for most they didn’t need to work efficiently... but the world has moved on and so have modern home routers...

So all switches isolate unicast data whether they be built in the home router or separate, also remember broadcast and multicast data (depending on implementation) reaches all parts of your home network subnet irrespective of how you connect up.

As far as  ‘fibre bridges’ they are transparent to data,  they have no impact what so ever in terms of data isolation etc, however in theory you can use them like acommon mode RFI filter (like a ferrite clamp) to impede electrical noise from poorly specified or faulty home network equipment .. but to my view you are more likely to cause more issues this way in the longer run and it’s better to fix the root cause.

Tweaking aside, set up your home network topology to suit your layout.

I found the following when progressing the various options from just adding a switch, cables and full power Fibre Bridge

I have ranked each (#) and then the order (1^st, 2^nd, etc…) of change.

Yes #03 – if you factor VFM and bang per £, then I would rate it #09, but I see this exercise as letting the Nova flourish and excel.

#01 (6^th) – Adding IFI power supplies (£90) to the fibre bridge = Major drop in noise floor, vivid soundstage;

#02 (5^th) – Adding fibre bridge (£75), between switch and Nova = Major improvement in dynamics, wide soundstage, everything got much better;

#03 (2^nd) – Upgrading Atom to Nova (£4100) = Allot more emotion and control, brings ease to the presentation (as in effortless);

#04 (3^rd) – A new Cisco 2960 = Much tighter grip/control/timing, made the used switch sound sluggish an “loose” in comparison;

#05 (1^st) – Adding a used Cisco 2960 (£100) used = Very noticeable improvement in dynamics and detail;

#06 (4^th) – Using Chord C Streams (£50) = Subtle but clear minor veil lifted;

#07 (7^th) – Using AQ Vodka (£500) fibre bridge to Nova = A clear step backwards, dynamics lost and heavy bloated bass.

#08 (8^th) - Wurth Ferrite Core = Nothing no change whatsoever

Thank you Simon,that kind of clears things up for me...I think I will just use it the way I have been.I do have about 5 ferrite clamps on both Ethernet cables,just before they enter the Core and 272,and I do not hear anything but silence,once the music stops.

OBSYDIAN

Just when I thought Simon had me staying put with what I have,ha ha...I notice you have adding the “new Cisco 2960” as number one improvement.Can you give me the exact model number you are referring to.Thanks for the breakdown of the things you added.

NO QUARTER - Sorry my dual logic of rank improvement and order/sequence of change.

The old Cisco i did 1st in order, but ranked it as #05 out of #08.

Anyway it is the Cisco - WS-C2960-8TC 8-Port

Anyway best to keep and open mind and try what you think makes sense.

I think he had “used” Cisco as no1,and the new as no.3. Presumably the new gives an uplift, but not as much as he already had the benefit of the used baked into the set up. A new Cisco ws- 2960. 8tc is £1454 on Amazon, which was why I got a refurbed one.