network streaming tweaks

No quarter posted:

Thanks for the advice,Chris,I already have the Linksys router in place,I have been using it for about 4 years.So would I be better off getting a better router,or just adding a 2960 switch to the existing router?...if I try anything.

If your internet connection and wireless are working well, I would leave that side of things well alone, and just add a switch. If you go for a used 2960, there is a steady supply of them on ebay - try to get one which has been reset to factory default settings, then it will be simple plug and play. If it doesn't improve anything, just stick it back on ebay. 

Eloise posted:

The “router” supplied by ISPs can be thought of (if it helps) in the same way as the Uniti range vs Classic / 500 range of separates.

The ISP router is a combination of ADSL (VDSL for Fibre to the Cabinet) modem, router, firewall, switch and wireless access point.  Cramming all that in a box which costs less than £100 is going to require making compromises; just like even the best Uniti is compromised vs Classic range separates.

I am not sure that generalisation  works... some ISP routers are necessarily rather advanced devices to support the ISP  bundled services such as supporting real-time HD IPTV and traffic management... many standard off the shelf home network routers would struggle here even if they could support at all.

Your comparison perhaps should be more consumer home routers (ISP and off the shelf) vs professional routers, where the latter can cost several thousands of pounds, and some  exceeding the cost of a Nac552 by quite a margin....

ChrisSU posted:

No quarter posted:

Hi Chris,or Simon

i am home now,and had a better look at my router...it appears to be a real cheap one,it as a Linksys E2500 Advanced Dual-Band N Router.There are only four Ethernet ports,do you think this thing can be improved upon with a switch?It does say Cisco on the box,any advice is greatly appreciated.

Lynksys used to be owned by Cisco, which can cause confusion between the two brands. Id ones look like a pretty cheap consumer grade device, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it won't work, so I would still be inclined to try it anyway. At least then you will have a baseline against which to compare other products. Improvements in sound quality are, in my limited experience, subtle at best, although others may have different experiences. 

Hmm, I think there is some views on this forum suggesting that  just because the network device has a brand owned by Cisco it will sound better..not at all. The Cisco 2960 Catalyst   switches that some talk about have a specific architecture, design and specification that leads, in my opinion,  to subtle changes in sound of connected Naim streamers... it’s this I suggest rather than being Cisco that makes the difference.

Interesting thread.

I was wondering why having such a good switch as those from the Cisco Catalyst range would improve sound quality.

I suppose that the streaming protocol used by the media server is something on top of UDP which means possible packets loss.

Having an efficient switch is always nice but, in the present case, wouldn’t it be better to use a fully managed switch (layer 3) and prioritize data streams between 2 specific IP addresses or, even better,  between two switch ports (those to which Media server and client are connected) ? 

If one reads the entire thread particularly the posts by Simon, one will find all the answers. I’m not an expert but I think Simon is saying that intermodulation from cheap switches affects the streamer in sonically undesirable ways.

Besides eBay, Used Cisco (google) provide refurbished Cisco 2960 8tc switches (64€ inc UPS shipping) and any other that you might like such as the PoE variant. No need to wait for an auction to end. Yours within a week.

Phil

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Eloise posted:

The ISP router is a combination of ADSL (VDSL for Fibre to the Cabinet) modem, router, firewall, switch and wireless access point.  Cramming all that in a box which costs less than £100 is going to require making compromises; just like even the best Uniti is compromised vs Classic range separates.

I am not sure that generalisation  works... some ISP routers are necessarily rather advanced devices to support the ISP  bundled services such as supporting real-time HD IPTV and traffic management... many standard off the shelf home network routers would struggle here even if they could support at all.

My point (which maybe I failed to make) was that general ISP routers because they are an ADSL/VDSL modem, router, firewall, switch and access point all in one device, they are going to be compromised vs having those things as individual parts.  However they also become easier to manage for the end user compared with the more versatile component and as such some functionality is disabled (such as Snooping which many ISP routers have either permanently on or permanently off).

Mike-B posted:

French Rooster posted:

 

your schematic doesn’t show clearly that the nas and streamer should not be connected to the router directly but to the dedicated switch.  Or i am silly and can’t read a schematic....

Yes you're right about one thing,  you can't read a schematic

Does this help??

it is not technically a schematic diagram  but a usefull block diagram  useful for new comers.  naim should produce all options of set ups ,even recommending  cables switches drives etc in such a way it helps at installation

Eloise posted:

My point (which maybe I failed to make) was that general ISP routers because they are an ADSL/VDSL modem, router, firewall, switch and access point all in one device, they are going to be compromised vs having those things as individual parts.  However they also become easier to manage for the end user compared with the more versatile component and as such some functionality is disabled (such as Snooping which many ISP routers have either permanently on or permanently off).

Sure many home network devices are designed with simplicity in mind and price sensitively... and in my opinion the area that tends to get the most compromised is the WLAN access point... as most consumers are oblivious as to what’s make a good WLAN other than ‘range’ (which ironically can be a negative) and link speed and don’t expect much, which is why perhaps many think Wifi is always inferior to a wired connection.

To your point about IGMP snooping... I have found modern home devices that need to use multicast for certain ISP services implement this correctly (and there is no issue with Naim UPnP or Airplay for example), and you certainly wouldn’t want a user fiddling around and turning it off inadvertently, it’s more in the area of off the shelf providers such as Apple and Netgear I have found interoperability issues here and disabling is sometimes required.

NQ, to your earlier question, I suspect those switch ports will be fine.. you might find issues with discovery, in which case you might need to turn IGMP snooping off in your home router... failing that then you might need a separate WLAN access point (s) plugged into the switch ports or a separate switch.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

NQ, to your earlier question, I suspect those switch ports will be fine.. you might find issues with discovery, in which case you might need to turn IGMP snooping off in your home router... failing that then you might need a separate WLAN access point (s) plugged into the switch ports or a separate switch.

Why not simply make a direct connection between the music server (e.g. Naim Core, NUC etc.) and streamer using an Ethernet crossover cable?  (I suppose it won't be difficult to manually give a fix IP to both server and client)

This might be a good way to avoid switch issues and isolate the streamer from the rest of network.

Well you could do, but most like the use of Wifi for the Naim app and the use of the internet for streamer and indexing the rips on their NAS... and in which case you would need to open up the network into multiple segments via a switch.

Remember apart from broadcast frames a switch by its very function isolates the streamer connected to it from the rest of the network.

Melco have done something like this with their music servers, which have an optional direct Ethernet connection as an alternative to a regular network connection. I’ve never heard one, but apparently it’s supposed to sound a bit better that way. 

Chris, Ethernet is Ethernet... it doesn’t care what ever segments are switched to it or not... if the Melco offers a segment to the streamer then that is  fine and this will be a regular Ethernet connection... but in this case the Melco is acting like a good quality switch with a single external port.....

TomSer posted:

Having an efficient switch is always nice but, in the present case, wouldn’t it be better to use a fully managed switch (layer 3) and prioritize data streams between 2 specific IP addresses or, even better,  between two switch ports (those to which Media server and client are connected) ? 

No you don’t need a layer 3 switch (which is another name for a router switch), if you already have a home router,  as certainly UPnP audio almost always relies on being in the same subnet.

Also the differentiation (prioritisation) of data packets is moot, as most home audio doesn’t use DSCP or TOS and our home audio media transfer is non real-time and uses TCP, so timing prioritisation is not really important, and is more governed by the host TCP stack than anything else.

Simon

musicfan51 posted:

Obsydian posted:

I found the following when progressing the various options from just adding a switch, cables and full power Fibre Bridge

I have ranked each (#) and then the order (1^st, 2^nd, etc…) of change.

 

Yes #03 – if you factor VFM and bang per £, then I would rate it #09, but I see this exercise as letting the Nova flourish and excel.

 

#01 (6^th) – Adding IFI power supplies (£90) to the fibre bridge = Major drop in noise floor, vivid soundstage;

#02 (5^th) – Adding fibre bridge (£75), between switch and Nova = Major improvement in dynamics, wide soundstage, everything got much better;

#03 (2^nd) – Upgrading Atom to Nova (£4100) = Allot more emotion and control, brings ease to the presentation (as in effortless);

#04 (3^rd) – A new Cisco 2960 = Much tighter grip/control/timing, made the used switch sound sluggish an “loose” in comparison;

#05 (1^st) – Adding a used Cisco 2960 (£100) used = Very noticeable improvement in dynamics and detail;

#06 (4^th) – Using Chord C Streams (£50) = Subtle but clear minor veil lifted;

#07 (7^th) – Using AQ Vodka (£500) fibre bridge to Nova = A clear step backwards, dynamics lost and heavy bloated bass.

#08 (8^th) - Wurth Ferrite Core = Nothing no change whatsoever

If you can ever fit Chord Indigo Aray Ethernet cable in your budget , it is a very clear upgrade in SQ over chord C stream! I was shocked how much ! 

MUSICFAN51 - ordered the Chord Indigo Aray to replace the C stream from my fibre bridge to Nova, will report back later in the week.

Obsydian posted:

musicfan51 posted:

Obsydian posted:

I found the following when progressing the various options from just adding a switch, cables and full power Fibre Bridge

I have ranked each (#) and then the order (1^st, 2^nd, etc…) of change.

 

Yes #03 – if you factor VFM and bang per £, then I would rate it #09, but I see this exercise as letting the Nova flourish and excel.

 

#01 (6^th) – Adding IFI power supplies (£90) to the fibre bridge = Major drop in noise floor, vivid soundstage;

#02 (5^th) – Adding fibre bridge (£75), between switch and Nova = Major improvement in dynamics, wide soundstage, everything got much better;

#03 (2^nd) – Upgrading Atom to Nova (£4100) = Allot more emotion and control, brings ease to the presentation (as in effortless);

#04 (3^rd) – A new Cisco 2960 = Much tighter grip/control/timing, made the used switch sound sluggish an “loose” in comparison;

#05 (1^st) – Adding a used Cisco 2960 (£100) used = Very noticeable improvement in dynamics and detail;

#06 (4^th) – Using Chord C Streams (£50) = Subtle but clear minor veil lifted;

#07 (7^th) – Using AQ Vodka (£500) fibre bridge to Nova = A clear step backwards, dynamics lost and heavy bloated bass.

#08 (8^th) - Wurth Ferrite Core = Nothing no change whatsoever

If you can ever fit Chord Indigo Aray Ethernet cable in your budget , it is a very clear upgrade in SQ over chord C stream! I was shocked how much ! 

MUSICFAN51 - ordered the Chord Indigo Aray to replace the C stream from my fibre bridge to Nova, will report back later in the week.

Great!  And it does get better sounding over a two week period ! 

TomSer posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

NQ, to your earlier question, I suspect those switch ports will be fine.. you might find issues with discovery, in which case you might need to turn IGMP snooping off in your home router... failing that then you might need a separate WLAN access point (s) plugged into the switch ports or a separate switch.

Why not simply make a direct connection between the music server (e.g. Naim Core, NUC etc.) and streamer using an Ethernet crossover cable?  (I suppose it won't be difficult to manually give a fix IP to both server and client)

This might be a good way to avoid switch issues and isolate the streamer from the rest of network.

In my case,I have two systems running off my Core,so sometimes I use the direct SPDIF connection,other times I use UPNP...it depends on what I am using at the time.It does seem to sound a little better using SPDIF,but nothing night and day.I was under the impression that I have to connect the Core with ethetnet,in order to use the I-pad to control it.Anyway,I am sticking with what I have for now,I don’t feel like jumping into a rabbit hole.

Great  experience  with the just arrived Nac 272  -  upnp (Minimserver)

Nac ------>switch <-------Nas 

The switch's  (Tp link  5 port  , metal case )   input is connected to the  router ( used only for streaming radio and app control)

Nas ( Qnap fanless HS-251+ )   is powered  by a TP psu

Switch  is powered by the Nas usb port

---------------

Superb  experience  (but the Nas maintains HD always  "on"  ad I don't like  it )  is with the "virtual switch " option enabled on the Qnap

Like Melco  .......Nas connected directly to the Nac 272

t@rmac posted:

<snip>

Superb  experience  (but the Nas maintains HD always  "on"  ad I don't like  it )  is with the "virtual switch " option enabled on the Qnap

Like Melco  .......Nas connected directly to the Nac 272

If you are using a hard disc designed for NAS operation then it should remain powered 24x7 and be allowed to control (and optimise) it's power use and running parameters for itself (e.g. by running the disk at a slow speed and shutting down parts of it's own electronics when not needed).  It'll last longer this way rather than frequently being turned off and suddenly having to run up to full speed from a standstill.

Ok so my £1200 Chord Indigo Tuned Aray cable arrived yesterday, so listened to system as is with the Chord C Stream and then replaced it with the Indigo. For reference this is the last length from fibre bridge to Nova.

The result, at best quite subtle, yes more detail, but to me somewhat exagerated at first. Later my thoughts rated it as more texture to everything. It does suggest 100hrs break in so let's see.

An interesting one I think I need to listen more and swap back to the C Stream. But so far feel a bit robbed vs the C stream, but then I've done plenty of big box upgrades and thought it sounded worse.

I really feel the fibre bridge has as crazy articles suggest ditched all the noise. Cannot stress how much people should try this at sub £100 it is one of them try and decide.

For anyone with a AQ Vodka, my Indigo makes that sound worse than my Amazon CAT6 for £7.

So my rating at the moment is now.

#01 (6^th) – Adding IFI power supplies (£90) to the fibre bridge = Major drop in noise floor, vivid soundstage;

#02 (5^th) – Adding fibre bridge (£75), between switch and Nova = Major improvement in dynamics, wide soundstage, everything got much better;

#03 (2^nd) – Upgrading Atom to Nova (£4100) = Allot more emotion and control, brings ease to the presentation (as in effortless);

#04 (9th) - Chord Indigo Aray (£1200) = More life like but subtle, adds a texture to everthing making it more involving to listen to.

#05 (3^rd) – A new Cisco 2960 = Much tighter grip/control/timing, made the used switch sound sluggish an “loose” in comparison;

#06 (1^st) – Adding a used Cisco 2960 (£100) used = Very noticeable improvement in dynamics and detail;

#07 (4^th) – Using Chord C Streams (£50) = Subtle but clear minor veil lifted;

#08 (7^th) – Using AQ Vodka (£500) fibre bridge to Nova = A clear step backwards, dynamics lost and heavy bloated bass.

#09 (8^th) - Wurth Ferrite Core = Nothing no change whatsoever.

Just picked up a vodka cable and hopefully a true audio signal cable to try from Cisco switch to Nova. Will post when I have them installed currently away for a short break.

hey guys, i have a question:  i received the audioquest diamond to replace the vodka before my streamer. I will put the vodka between my router and the cisco switch:  in which sens connect the vodka to the router , the arrow in direction to the router or the contrary?  thanks 

French Rooster posted:

hey guys, i have a question:  i received the audioquest diamond to replace the vodka before my streamer. I will put the vodka between my router and the cisco switch:  in which sens connect the vodka to the router , the arrow in direction to the router or the contrary?  thanks 

Well given data flows both from and to the switch from your router ... I guess you need two cables one for each direction!

(And yes I'm joking)

I just had a thought and I haven't bothered to read all 9 pages in this thread, so apologies if this is a rehash. But here's a potential tweak.

I've had the rare occasion at work, to do direct hookup of systems using an ethernet cross-over cable.  1-1.  It's the simplest network topology possible..no routers or switches.  This requires both systems to be on the same network segment (ip address range/netmask).  You would need to remove the dependence on DNS for host resolution.. which may be possible (if it works.. it's code dependent), by simply putting the NAS IP address in the reader's input hostname field.

For an audiophile, this potentially removes the need for a switch (and it's potential noise).

Any takers? Lab experiment?

Eloise posted:

French Rooster posted:

hey guys, i have a question:  i received the audioquest diamond to replace the vodka before my streamer. I will put the vodka between my router and the cisco switch:  in which sens connect the vodka to the router , the arrow in direction to the router or the contrary?  thanks 

Well given data flows both from and to the switch from your router ... I guess you need two cables one for each direction!

(And yes I'm joking)

there are arrows on the plugs, two different directions at the extremities.  You think it will not change anything?