network streaming tweaks

French Rooster posted:

a little rude but no problem Mike B....  When you say »my own words « , don’t forget that i am thinking in french language when i am writing in english....

Exactement, j'apprecie que vous n'offensez pas.    

Mike-B posted:

French Rooster posted:

a little rude but no problem Mike B....  When you say »my own words « , don’t forget that i am thinking in french language when i am writing in english....

Exactement, j'apprecie que vous n'offensez pas.    

que vous ne vous offensez pas.   I appreciate Mike B.   Perhaps i am also a little rude or direct when i write and it can irritate....

But no matter, all is fine now.

vtpcnk posted:

hey all, i just started using a unitiqute. so what are the things i can tweak for SQ? 

Which file format are you using for streaming? If it is not wav (but flac or something else) it might increase the sound quality when switching to wav. This can be done on the fly with e.g. minimserver installed on a NAS. So this might be a reason to use a good NAS.

At least with my uniti1 wav sounds much better (smoother) than flac which sounds harder somehow.

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

Get  Cisco switch and as a start the chord entry cables one from router to switch and one from switch to streamer.

With regards to both I would no regard them as tweaks if anything essential components.

you are right, these tweaks are essential but took separately, one by one, they give minor improvement. But the global network upgrade improve significantly :  dedicated switch with linear ps or minimum ifi power, or cisco 2960, good lans cables , optical bridge on linear ps ....

I am not sure that the op should invest in all these tweaks that cost nearly the price of the unitiqute.  For an ndx or nds level, it is worthwhile 

I would go just for a cisco 2960 used and factory reset , with a lan cable like chord c stream or meicord lan cable.

Interesting you disagree then state my proposal, in the same response.

Obsydian posted:

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

Get  Cisco switch and as a start the chord entry cables one from router to switch and one from switch to streamer.

With regards to both I would no regard them as tweaks if anything essential components.

you are right, these tweaks are essential but took separately, one by one, they give minor improvement. But the global network upgrade improve significantly :  dedicated switch with linear ps or minimum ifi power, or cisco 2960, good lans cables , optical bridge on linear ps ....

I am not sure that the op should invest in all these tweaks that cost nearly the price of the unitiqute.  For an ndx or nds level, it is worthwhile 

I would go just for a cisco 2960 used and factory reset , with a lan cable like chord c stream or meicord lan cable.

Interesting you disagree then state my proposal, in the same response.

i am not very clear i think.  I wanted to say that for an ndx/ nds/ linn klimax level, upgrading the network is essential, but this system is enough revealing to show the differences in sound quality. It has a cost too: audioquest vodka level of cables, dedicated switch, fmc converters with linear ps, nas or serve on linear ps.  

But the op has a uniqute.  It is an integrated amp/dac/ streamer for around 1700GBP.  Do you think, in that case, that it is worthwhile to invest in an network ‘s upgrade in that case?

Just a dedicated switch and a not so bad lan cable should be enough.  Or invest in a better amp and steamer first, like supernait with nd5xs....

GraemeH posted:

Tis the cisco 2960. 272 found and all fully functioning otherwise Mike.

Maybe I’ll give it another go. Does it matter which port I use?

You can use any port, they are all the same (except for the console port). Has it been reset to factory settings? 

Thanks for your help with my issue which is now resolved. Image stability and transparency improved...I think.

G

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

Get  Cisco switch and as a start the chord entry cables one from router to switch and one from switch to streamer.

With regards to both I would no regard them as tweaks if anything essential components.

you are right, these tweaks are essential but took separately, one by one, they give minor improvement. But the global network upgrade improve significantly :  dedicated switch with linear ps or minimum ifi power, or cisco 2960, good lans cables , optical bridge on linear ps ....

I am not sure that the op should invest in all these tweaks that cost nearly the price of the unitiqute.  For an ndx or nds level, it is worthwhile 

I would go just for a cisco 2960 used and factory reset , with a lan cable like chord c stream or meicord lan cable.

Interesting you disagree then state my proposal, in the same response.

i am not very clear i think.  I wanted to say that for an ndx/ nds/ linn klimax level, upgrading the network is essential, but this system is enough revealing to show the differences in sound quality. It has a cost too: audioquest vodka level of cables, dedicated switch, fmc converters with linear ps, nas or serve on linear ps.  

But the op has a uniqute.  It is an integrated amp/dac/ streamer for around 1700GBP.  Do you think, in that case, that it is worthwhile to invest in an network ‘s upgrade in that case?

Just a dedicated switch and a not so bad lan cable should be enough.  Or invest in a better amp and steamer first, like supernait with nd5xs....

Disagree - i would say Cisco switch (2960 has on board power) £100, Chord Stream cables x 2 = £100 - TOTAL £200, cheaper than one AQ Vodka but a great starting point.

Obsydian posted:

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

Get  Cisco switch and as a start the chord entry cables one from router to switch and one from switch to streamer.

With regards to both I would no regard them as tweaks if anything essential components.

you are right, these tweaks are essential but took separately, one by one, they give minor improvement. But the global network upgrade improve significantly :  dedicated switch with linear ps or minimum ifi power, or cisco 2960, good lans cables , optical bridge on linear ps ....

I am not sure that the op should invest in all these tweaks that cost nearly the price of the unitiqute.  For an ndx or nds level, it is worthwhile 

I would go just for a cisco 2960 used and factory reset , with a lan cable like chord c stream or meicord lan cable.

Interesting you disagree then state my proposal, in the same response.

i am not very clear i think.  I wanted to say that for an ndx/ nds/ linn klimax level, upgrading the network is essential, but this system is enough revealing to show the differences in sound quality. It has a cost too: audioquest vodka level of cables, dedicated switch, fmc converters with linear ps, nas or serve on linear ps.  

But the op has a uniqute.  It is an integrated amp/dac/ streamer for around 1700GBP.  Do you think, in that case, that it is worthwhile to invest in an network ‘s upgrade in that case?

Just a dedicated switch and a not so bad lan cable should be enough.  Or invest in a better amp and steamer first, like supernait with nd5xs....

Disagree - i would say Cisco switch (2960 has on board power) £100, Chord Stream cables x 2 = £100 - TOTAL £200, cheaper than one AQ Vodka but a great starting point.

i saïd the same at the end of my post: just a dedicated switch : cisco.   not so bad lan: chord stream     I think we agree

>Disagree - i would say Cisco switch (2960 has on board power) £100, 

Can I know which particular model you are referring to? new or used?

>TOTAL £200, cheaper than one AQ Vodka but a great starting point.

after a few years in "audiophile" experimentation and a whole lot of misses than hits, i doubt i will go beyond this starting point. nowadays i nostalgically look back at my bose days when i actually used to enjoy music than spending a whole lot of time and money on equipment matching, synergy, power cords etc.

now i just want to get the basics right and forget about it and simply enjoy music.

vtpcnk posted:

>Disagree - i would say Cisco switch (2960 has on board power) £100, 

Can I know which particular model you are referring to? new or used?

>TOTAL £200, cheaper than one AQ Vodka but a great starting point.

after a few years in "audiophile" experimentation and a whole lot of misses than hits, i doubt i will go beyond this starting point. nowadays i nostalgically look back at my bose days when i actually used to enjoy music than spending a whole lot of time and money on equipment matching, synergy, power cords etc.

now i just want to get the basics right and forget about it and simply enjoy music.

i use personnaly the cisco 2960-8tc used, refurbished and factory reset , paid around 50GBP.

It is the model recommended by the forum.  So i would go for this one and c stream lan for you.    But i would not go for a complete network optimization with high quality lan cables, linear ps on fmc converters and linear ps on nas, for your system.

I can’t be more clear with my french -english language. It is what i tried to say before.  Sorry if i was not clear.....

vtpcnk posted:

>Disagree - i would say Cisco switch (2960 has on board power) £100, 

Can I know which particular model you are referring to? new or used?

>TOTAL £200, cheaper than one AQ Vodka but a great starting point.

after a few years in "audiophile" experimentation and a whole lot of misses than hits, i doubt i will go beyond this starting point. nowadays i nostalgically look back at my bose days when i actually used to enjoy music than spending a whole lot of time and money on equipment matching, synergy, power cords etc.

now i just want to get the basics right and forget about it and simply enjoy music.

I must admit 15 20 yrs ago when I got hooked on Naim i loved the Naim leads are best and aside from black burndies were all cheap. 

As Rooster says we agree, but would say do the switch first and see, if that works for you (you may disagree), then definitely try the Chord C Stream.

Regards the 2960 I started with one off the Bay, but recently purchased a brand new sealed unit, yes it cost allot but for me it's box upgrade type improvement not a tweak.

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

Get  Cisco switch and as a start the chord entry cables one from router to switch and one from switch to streamer.

With regards to both I would no regard them as tweaks if anything essential components.

you are right, these tweaks are essential but took separately, one by one, they give minor improvement. But the global network upgrade improve significantly :  dedicated switch with linear ps or minimum ifi power, or cisco 2960, good lans cables , optical bridge on linear ps ....

I am not sure that the op should invest in all these tweaks that cost nearly the price of the unitiqute.  For an ndx or nds level, it is worthwhile 

I would go just for a cisco 2960 used and factory reset , with a lan cable like chord c stream or meicord lan cable.

Interesting you disagree then state my proposal, in the same response.

i am not very clear i think.  I wanted to say that for an ndx/ nds/ linn klimax level, upgrading the network is essential, but this system is enough revealing to show the differences in sound quality. It has a cost too: audioquest vodka level of cables, dedicated switch, fmc converters with linear ps, nas or serve on linear ps.  

But the op has a uniqute.  It is an integrated amp/dac/ streamer for around 1700GBP.  Do you think, in that case, that it is worthwhile to invest in an network ‘s upgrade in that case?

Just a dedicated switch and a not so bad lan cable should be enough.  Or invest in a better amp and steamer first, like supernait with nd5xs....

Could you elloborate as am interested in the steps beyond switch and cables - bridge and isolation...

Obsydian posted:

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

Get  Cisco switch and as a start the chord entry cables one from router to switch and one from switch to streamer.

With regards to both I would no regard them as tweaks if anything essential components.

you are right, these tweaks are essential but took separately, one by one, they give minor improvement. But the global network upgrade improve significantly :  dedicated switch with linear ps or minimum ifi power, or cisco 2960, good lans cables , optical bridge on linear ps ....

I am not sure that the op should invest in all these tweaks that cost nearly the price of the unitiqute.  For an ndx or nds level, it is worthwhile 

I would go just for a cisco 2960 used and factory reset , with a lan cable like chord c stream or meicord lan cable.

Interesting you disagree then state my proposal, in the same response.

i am not very clear i think.  I wanted to say that for an ndx/ nds/ linn klimax level, upgrading the network is essential, but this system is enough revealing to show the differences in sound quality. It has a cost too: audioquest vodka level of cables, dedicated switch, fmc converters with linear ps, nas or serve on linear ps.  

But the op has a uniqute.  It is an integrated amp/dac/ streamer for around 1700GBP.  Do you think, in that case, that it is worthwhile to invest in an network ‘s upgrade in that case?

Just a dedicated switch and a not so bad lan cable should be enough.  Or invest in a better amp and steamer first, like supernait with nd5xs....

Could you elloborate as am interested in the steps beyond switch and cables - bridge and isolation...

i will try but i recommend you to see at computer audiophile site or audiostream.

The optical bridge is a lan isolation from noise, the ethernet signal goes in optical fibers and all noise is removed.  You need two fmc converters and optic fiber between then :

switch>fmc converter> optical fibers(2)>fmc converter>streamer ( ndx, nds...)

It costs around 100GBP at amazon site and it improves very significantly the sound.  

But you can improve it with linear ps on these fmc converters, or ifi power 5v for much less cost....

The second isolation from noise is linear ps on nas or unitserve....effective too.

Thanks Mr Rooster yeah I had a look through that site before posting but allot of info and interesting characters and opinions - but see the isolation and bridge are pretty much agreed must do.

I am ordering some tp link converters and a fibre patch cable, all comes in at £122. Should be delivered tomorrow will spend sometime evaluating, but may wait as my switch is only 2 days old and no doubt breaking in.

Both the sites you mention offer some very interesting views and findings versus some very high end expensive HiFi gear.

vtpcnk posted:

hey all, i just started using a unitiqute. so what are the things i can tweak for SQ?

1. nas. is a nas certain to be better for sq than a hard disk hooked up to a computer?

2. ethernet cables. i saw chord company has some of these. anybody tried that?

3. since i can control the music through the naim app, i dont need a computer with a screen. any benefit in using raspberry pi or intel nuc? lesser interference, traffic, jitter etc?

4. is there an audiophile router or rather a router more suited by its features for streaming music?

5. i am currently using asset upnp. is there anything better than this?

Anything else?

Appreciate the insights.

 

Hi, I have been streaming one way or another since the late 90s and streaming with Naim pretty much from when they first entered the market. The main thing is to keep everything simple but effective.. and to get that balance right.

I would say tweaks fall into three varieties, which some interdependencies between the varieties.

1) Sound quality / sound presentation

2) Performance and usability

3) Bling and ‘feel good factor’

1 Sound Quality / Sound Presentation

Sound quality can be effected by electrical noise from some low quality switch mode power supplies, and so worth while looking into these. A quality SMPS powersupply can be as effective and clean as a transformer based powersupply or so called ‘linear’ power-supply, so don’t fall into the trap of assuming a linear powersupply is automatically better than a SMPS.

Local noise from the Ethernet leads can be an issue. This can be mitigated using better quality network equipment (see below), but can be also helped using certified Ethernet cable of Cat 5e or higher. Route the Ethernet lead away from signal and mains leads. Ferrite chokes around the Ethernet cables at the ends by the connectors can reduce common mode noise. You can experiment with different cable constructs and screening types... none of these need cost much at all, but anything aimed at the audiophile will have had its price multiplied by several factors. (See point 3)

With Naim streamers where one is using the inbuilt DAC many have found streaming WAV over FLAC or ALAC sonically prefereable, although when using the Naim streamer to drive an off board DAC this becomes less apparent.

Different media servers can effect SQ and for most this is going to be trial and error as measuring requires some expertise with WireShark and network expertise. I have found and measured a correlation between inter network frame consistency from a media server and sound presentation from the Naim NDX . It’s subtle like WAV / FLAC above but there none the less. Again physically decoupling the DAC from the streamer lessens this. 

f you are connecting your switch to your streamer, which I would recommend for the Classic streamers or if you have a basic broadband router type Wi-fi setup (see below), then some of us have found than some switch architectures can sound better with Naim syreamers... this I believe is down to the quality of the physical layer clocks on the Ethernet send pair, which in turn produces less coupled intermodulation side effects on the streamer. The Cisco Catalyst devices seem to work welll such as the 2960. Some have founding improving power supplies for very basic consumer switches helps, but this becomes moot for the higher grade devices like the Catalysts.

2 Performance and Usability

This for me is essentially ensuring the streaming works effectively. Naim use UPnP and that needs to have a reliable wired, wireless or combined network. Many Home  Wi-fi setups are very basic, and give rise to false assumptions Wi-fi is not optimum for streaming... invest in a Wifi solution using an ESSID (overlapping access points with same SSID name) and use commercial or ‘prosumer’ grade access points that you wire back to a switch / broadband router switch.  This way you should be able to stream via Wifi whilst others use your Wifi, and have effective and responsive Naim app performance irrespective of what else is happening in your house.

Next is ensuring UPnP discovery works well. This used to be quite a nightmare due to limited capability consumer home network product, but has appeared to have improved with more recent consumer product as these capabilities are required more often. The  important thing here is that multicast addresses are handled correctly... if you have issues with devices disappearing from the Naim app etc then try disabling a feature called IGMP snooping.. might appear on your Wifi and or switch... ideally you want enabled, but if there interoperability issue as above then disabling can help... but in some circumstances you might find your Wifi performance drops.

Then there is responsiveness of discovery, which builds on the above point... on tiny networks this may not be an issue, but on larger home networks, you might find annoying pauses for the Naim app to discover the media server(s)... setting up an IGMP Querier on a managed switch or router will massively improve performance  here... this is advanced.. if you are interested let me know or use Googke.

3 Bling and ‘Feel Good Factor’

This is harder to quantify but psychological and time and effort factors come into play.... and many appreciate buying something like an Ethernet cable from an audiophile brand that looks impressive, performs at a known level for a premium... its not for me, but is certainly an option if one wants to remove some of the trial and error. The same exists for some media server types running on popular computer platforms like OSX, frame converters for audio such as USB to PDIF, NASs etc etc.

Obsydian posted:

Thanks Mr Rooster yeah I had a look through that site before posting but allot of info and interesting characters and opinions - but see the isolation and bridge are pretty much agreed must do.

I am ordering some tp link converters and a fibre patch cable, all comes in at £122. Should be delivered tomorrow will spend sometime evaluating, but may wait as my switch is only 2 days old and no doubt breaking in.

Both the sites you mention offer some very interesting views and findings versus some very high end expensive HiFi gear.

you will normally hear an improvement but it is also very recommended to put ifi power on each tp link, because these tp links are powered by stock smps which are a bit noisy.  The ifi power 5v costs around 40GBP.  Some use batteries for smartphones but it often powers off...I had it before.

The ifi power can also power the ethernet switch, it isolates the switch from noise too.

Anyway you can try like that first and after, if you want, you can replace the smps by ifi power .

If you have the cisco 2960 switch, you don’t need ifi power.

The best is to put linear ps on each tp link and on nas or unitserve. The uniticore has already a linear ps inside.    You can find all these informations on the sites i mentioned.

Will try the ifi ps at a later date prefer one step at a time and judge, but thanks noted.

Have been reading Computer Audiophile and Audio stream sites/forum, wow I thought I'd seen tweak mania but these guys are pretty hardcore, but in most cases some logic. I tried one tweak with regards to switch in and out port position and left it at that. Either way nice to learn something new.

Don't mind a few easy low hanging fruit, but for sure want to avoid the OFF tweakery.

I can't help feeling that the thread has lost sight of the OP's original question which was about network tweaks for his UQ2 (ie not an NDS!).

best

David

a network streaming tweak is a tweak irrespective of whether its for NDS or UQ2!!

Yes but what you hear if you have an NDS is one thing. I suspect a UQ2 is not going to reveal those subtleties.

best

David

I hear my network tweaks more on my DAC V1 in the living room, but I can also hear them to a lesser degree on my UQ1 in the office. Of course no amount of tweakery will turn a UQ into an NDS, but it’s also not going to cost a lot of $ and then the network is ready for any upgrades of boxes down the road. 

I haven’t tried a 2960, but very happy with my Netgear FS105, using ports 1,3, and 5 (due to magnetic connection between those) and a ground shunt at the DC entry. Also be sure the dip switches are set up right on the FMC’s. No need for them to talk in both directions. 

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

Get  Cisco switch and as a start the chord entry cables one from router to switch and one from switch to streamer.

With regards to both I would no regard them as tweaks if anything essential components.

you are right, these tweaks are essential but took separately, one by one, they give minor improvement. But the global network upgrade improve significantly :  dedicated switch with linear ps or minimum ifi power, or cisco 2960, good lans cables , optical bridge on linear ps ....

I am not sure that the op should invest in all these tweaks that cost nearly the price of the unitiqute.  For an ndx or nds level, it is worthwhile 

I would go just for a cisco 2960 used and factory reset , with a lan cable like chord c stream or meicord lan cable.

Interesting you disagree then state my proposal, in the same response.

i am not very clear i think.  I wanted to say that for an ndx/ nds/ linn klimax level, upgrading the network is essential, but this system is enough revealing to show the differences in sound quality. It has a cost too: audioquest vodka level of cables, dedicated switch, fmc converters with linear ps, nas or serve on linear ps.  

But the op has a uniqute.  It is an integrated amp/dac/ streamer for around 1700GBP.  Do you think, in that case, that it is worthwhile to invest in an network ‘s upgrade in that case?

Just a dedicated switch and a not so bad lan cable should be enough.  Or invest in a better amp and steamer first, like supernait with nd5xs....

No, you were perfect clear. 

Obsydian posted:

Will try the ifi ps at a later date prefer one step at a time and judge, but thanks noted.

Have been reading Computer Audiophile and Audio stream sites/forum, wow I thought I'd seen tweak mania but these guys are pretty hardcore, but in most cases some logic. I tried one tweak with regards to switch in and out port position and left it at that. Either way nice to learn something new.

Don't mind a few easy low hanging fruit, but for sure want to avoid the OFF tweakery.

Yes of course, some guys are pretty hardcore. But a lot of members here use ifi power. It is a cheap tweak and very useful.  In the search part of naim forum, you have the topic:  “ ifi power smps”.  You can have a look if you want.  

Some naim members use also linear ps for nas , mac mini or unitserve.  

As you said, try first that.  If not satisfied, you can even return.   The cisco 2960 switch, used and factory reset, is also an important upgrade for little money ( around 50GBP).  A lot of topics here on this switch.

Thanks I already have a Cisco 2960, was new and sealed.

Just realised the TP link Converters have 2 pin plugs, what a pain.