network streaming tweaks

ChrisSU posted:

Obsydian posted:

Ok so router to switch (lan cable) switch lan = green working.

Switch (lan cable) to media unit 1 = switch no light

Media unit 1 (fibre) to media unit 2 = neither TX or RX only power and link lights on.

Media unit 2 (lan cable) to Nova = Nova not responding (Naim app)

Restarted router, switch and media units also, same issue.

Are you trying to connect a Gigabit FMC to the Nova? This might be a problem, as Naim streamers are 100MB, not GB, and as I understand it, fibre devices cannot autonegotiate between speeds the same way that copper Ethernet can. In other words, you may need a 100MB FMC.

First things first, though. Try restarting everything - if you haven't already! 

my nds is connected to the tp link mc110cs converter then fibers optic then another tp link then cisco 2960. All is working.  The nova is different from nds ?  But i use tp link mc110cs and obsidian uses tp link mc 200cm. Perhaps this mc200cm model is not working with naim?

ChrisSU posted:

Obsydian posted:

Ok so router to switch (lan cable) switch lan = green working.

Switch (lan cable) to media unit 1 = switch no light

Media unit 1 (fibre) to media unit 2 = neither TX or RX only power and link lights on.

Media unit 2 (lan cable) to Nova = Nova not responding (Naim app)

Restarted router, switch and media units also, same issue.

Are you trying to connect a Gigabit FMC to the Nova? This might be a problem, as Naim streamers are 100MB, not GB, and as I understand it, fibre devices cannot autonegotiate between speeds the same way that copper Ethernet can. In other words, you may need a 100MB FMC.

First things first, though. Try restarting everything - if you haven't already! 

Yes tried restarting all - same issue remains.

Obsydian posted:

Ok so router to switch (lan cable) switch lan = green working.

Switch (lan cable) to media unit 1 = switch no light

Media unit 1 (fibre) to media unit 2 = neither TX or RX only power and link lights on.

Media unit 2 (lan cable) to Nova = Nova not responding (Naim app)

Restarted router, switch and media units also, same issue.

try also to restart the nova.  I had sometimes, rarely,same issue and after restarting my nds, all was fine.  If not , perhaps your tp link model, different from mine. I hope it is just the first solution...

charlesphoto posted:

Simon I would say you are right about most things, but don’t knock the fiber media converters until you’ve actually tried them. I know I would certainly love to lose mine and their accompanying power supplies but whenever I remove them the noise (mostly as a harsher treble) is back and instrument separation not as good. It can sound a bit zingier, but more fatiguing. So please explain more how this is wrong? 

Plus, these things are dirt cheap in the scheme of things (for Naim, microRendu, and most only 10/100 is needed). And if you order from that big river site you can always return if they make things sound worse. 

Charles, I have used these at work - they are a necessary annoyance in some circumstances where you have very long runs between devices that don't support SFPs ... most converters i have seen are rather basic devices with little or no apparent attention to carrier clock accuracy and power supply regulation from what I can see... and as I say they are irrelevant from a functional point of view as Naim  don't currently Fibre SFPs... I am not denying you are changing the sonic profile - but I am sure you could achieve the same thing with experimenting with various cheap ethernet cables and some ferrite chokes whilst maintaining improved reliability ... and I suspect you may also be adding noise into the equation especially if you are using a quality switch... and reading the above posts of some of the issues some people are now having who are toying with unnecessary gadgets  really takes the biscuit. One should be enjoying your music - if you have spare funds - buy some music... from a streaming point of view number one rule is Keep It Simple ... and Naim have designed their interfaces to connect to a switch port either directly via wired ethernet or via wifi WLAN... this is important as there are internal timing and TCP optimisations based on the connection type.

Yeah no success tried that also.

Will return the 200 and maybe look to try again... or just leave well alone and enjoy some music ; )

Either wayvmany thanks for all your help and guidance.

French Rooster posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Obsydian posted:

Ok so router to switch (lan cable) switch lan = green working.

Switch (lan cable) to media unit 1 = switch no light

Media unit 1 (fibre) to media unit 2 = neither TX or RX only power and link lights on.

Media unit 2 (lan cable) to Nova = Nova not responding (Naim app)

Restarted router, switch and media units also, same issue.

Are you trying to connect a Gigabit FMC to the Nova? This might be a problem, as Naim streamers are 100MB, not GB, and as I understand it, fibre devices cannot autonegotiate between speeds the same way that copper Ethernet can. In other words, you may need a 100MB FMC.

First things first, though. Try restarting everything - if you haven't already! 

my nds is connected to the tp link mc110cs converter then fibers optic then another tp link then cisco 2960. All is working.  The nova is different from nds ?  But i use tp link mc110cs and obsidian uses tp link mc 200cm. Perhaps this mc200cm model is not working with naim?

I think your FMCs are 100MB, which is the same as the 2960 Ethernet ports and the Naim streamers, so I would expect this to work. Obsydian’s 200 is, I think, GB, so that would explain his problem. If I am correct, he just needs to swap his for the 100MB version and that should work. 

Obsydian posted:

Yeah no success tried that also.

Will return the 200 and maybe look to try again... or just leave well alone and enjoy some music ; )

Either wayvmany thanks for all your help and guidance.

sorry to hear it is unsuccessful.  I don’t know the technical problems of that, i just followed the recommendations of a french forum, bought and installed what they advised.  My tp links are mc110cs.

i will ask charlopetto, he uses fmc also....

charlesphoto posted:

I hear my network tweaks more on my DAC V1 in the living room, but I can also hear them to a lesser degree on my UQ1 in the office. Of course no amount of tweakery will turn a UQ into an NDS, but it’s also not going to cost a lot of $ and then the network is ready for any upgrades of boxes down the road. 

I haven’t tried a 2960, but very happy with my Netgear FS105, using ports 1,3, and 5 (due to magnetic connection between those) and a ground shunt at the DC entry. Also be sure the dip switches are set up right on the FMC’s. No need for them to talk in both directions. 

hey charlesphoto,

can you say what fmc are you using?  i use tp link mc110cs but Obsydian, on this topic, tried tp link mc200cm and it doesn’t work. He uses naim nova.  The details are on this topic.

Chrissu thinks the mc200cm doesn’t work certainly with naim....  Can you help?

Thanks guys - a thought also is are you units single or multi mode ?

The one I purchased was multi mode.

Obsydian posted:

Thanks guys - a thought also is are you units single or multi mode ?

The one I purchased was multi mode.

i just saw on the tp link site:  the mc110cs is monomode

In the 110CS the Zon has them single and multi, plus 100mb and 1000mb.

Same applies to the 200CM.

I guess the question is what MBits and mode do you guys have, then as a starting point we can establish what works with Naim and what maybe does not.

Obsydian posted:

In the 110CS the Zon has them single and multi, plus 100mb and 1000mb.

Same applies to the 200CM.

I guess the question is what MBits and mode do you guys have, then as a starting point we can establish what works with Naim and what maybe does not.

The 100 and 110 are 100MB only. 200 and 210 are Gigabit. If you want to test my theory, put a Gigabit switch between your 200 and the streamer, and it should then work, as the 200 then only sees a Gigabit device.

Obsydian posted:

In the 110CS the Zon has them single and multi, plus 100mb and 1000mb.

Same applies to the 200CM.

I guess the question is what MBits and mode do you guys have, then as a starting point we can establish what works with Naim and what maybe does not.

the 200cm is gigabit, i just verified and Chrissu is right.  For me, i use 2 tp link mc110cs with 2 patch optical fiber single mode. 

ChrisSU posted:

Obsydian posted:

In the 110CS the Zon has them single and multi, plus 100mb and 1000mb.

Same applies to the 200CM.

I guess the question is what MBits and mode do you guys have, then as a starting point we can establish what works with Naim and what maybe does not.

The 100 and 110 are 100MB only. 200 and 210 are Gigabit. If you want to test my theory, put a Gigabit switch between your 200 and the streamer, and it should then work, as the 200 then only sees a Gigabit device.

Chris that's how I started and it did not work either, I than moved it after the switch.

Been reading up, quite interesting range from PC to Linn to Devilet, a few mentions the Cisco to TP Link handshake is an issue ....

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

In the 110CS the Zon has them single and multi, plus 100mb and 1000mb.

Same applies to the 200CM.

I guess the question is what MBits and mode do you guys have, then as a starting point we can establish what works with Naim and what maybe does not.

the 200cm is gigabit, i just verified and Chrissu is right.  For me, i use 2 tp link mc110cs with 2 patch optical fiber single mode. 

Will look into this and order, as more curious now.

I went with Tripp Lite Multiplex patch cables.

Obsydian posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Obsydian posted:

In the 110CS the Zon has them single and multi, plus 100mb and 1000mb.

Same applies to the 200CM.

I guess the question is what MBits and mode do you guys have, then as a starting point we can establish what works with Naim and what maybe does not.

The 100 and 110 are 100MB only. 200 and 210 are Gigabit. If you want to test my theory, put a Gigabit switch between your 200 and the streamer, and it should then work, as the 200 then only sees a Gigabit device.

Chris that's how I started and it did not work either, I than moved it after the switch.

Been reading up, quite interesting range from PC to Linn to Devilet, a few mentions the Cisco to TP Link handshake is an issue ....

i use the cisco catalyst 2960 8tc, no issue....you have the same i think.

Obsydian posted:

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

In the 110CS the Zon has them single and multi, plus 100mb and 1000mb.

Same applies to the 200CM.

I guess the question is what MBits and mode do you guys have, then as a starting point we can establish what works with Naim and what maybe does not.

the 200cm is gigabit, i just verified and Chrissu is right.  For me, i use 2 tp link mc110cs with 2 patch optical fiber single mode. 

Will look into this and order, as more curious now.

I went with Tripp Lite Multiplex patch cables.

the exact fiber optic:  2 patch of single mode fiber optic sc upc to sc upc. 2 meters. sc upc to sc upc is important.

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Obsydian posted:

In the 110CS the Zon has them single and multi, plus 100mb and 1000mb.

Same applies to the 200CM.

I guess the question is what MBits and mode do you guys have, then as a starting point we can establish what works with Naim and what maybe does not.

The 100 and 110 are 100MB only. 200 and 210 are Gigabit. If you want to test my theory, put a Gigabit switch between your 200 and the streamer, and it should then work, as the 200 then only sees a Gigabit device.

Chris that's how I started and it did not work either, I than moved it after the switch.

Been reading up, quite interesting range from PC to Linn to Devilet, a few mentions the Cisco to TP Link handshake is an issue ....

i use the cisco catalyst 2960 8tc, no issue....you have the same i think.

Yes same.

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

French Rooster posted:

Obsydian posted:

In the 110CS the Zon has them single and multi, plus 100mb and 1000mb.

Same applies to the 200CM.

I guess the question is what MBits and mode do you guys have, then as a starting point we can establish what works with Naim and what maybe does not.

the 200cm is gigabit, i just verified and Chrissu is right.  For me, i use 2 tp link mc110cs with 2 patch optical fiber single mode. 

Will look into this and order, as more curious now.

I went with Tripp Lite Multiplex patch cables.

the exact fiber optic:  2 patch of single mode fiber optic sc upc to sc upc. 2 meters. sc upc to sc upc is important.

Yes it is SC to SC, mine was 1.8M, but multi mode as the media conveter - will look into single mode.

Guys, if you are using a 2960 one of the advantages of that device is its a managed switch - so you can log on and see exactly what is happening on the port. You can configure to 100Mbps full duplex or what ever your fibre bridge devices are configured to - you don't need to rely on layer 2 auto port configuration if you are having synchronisation issues. It is not common - and in professional setups it is often good practice to hard set the duplex / port speed settings. If the link is up / up at both ends then you know the fault is with the fibre bridge. BTW do check minimum distances - fibre is sensitive to this unlike wired ethernet. Very short lengths of less than a few metres sometimes requires optical attenuators to stop overload.... fibre is really designed for longer distances.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Guys, if you are using a 2960 one of the advantages of that device is its a managed switch - so you can log on and see exactly what is happening on the port. You can configure to 100Mbps full duplex or what ever your fibre bridge devices are configured to - you don't need to rely on layer 2 auto port configuration if you are having synchronisation issues. It is not common - and in professional setups it is often good practice to hard set the duplex / port speed settings

Probably child's play for you, Simon, but my very limited experience of the Cisco console port soon made me realise that switch management is not at all straightforward for those of us with no professional IT background. I'd quite like to learn a bit about it, but where do you start!?

French Rooster posted:

charlesphoto posted:

I hear my network tweaks more on my DAC V1 in the living room, but I can also hear them to a lesser degree on my UQ1 in the office. Of course no amount of tweakery will turn a UQ into an NDS, but it’s also not going to cost a lot of $ and then the network is ready for any upgrades of boxes down the road. 

I haven’t tried a 2960, but very happy with my Netgear FS105, using ports 1,3, and 5 (due to magnetic connection between those) and a ground shunt at the DC entry. Also be sure the dip switches are set up right on the FMC’s. No need for them to talk in both directions. 

hey charlesphoto,

can you say what fmc are you using?  i use tp link mc110cs but Obsydian, on this topic, tried tp link mc200cm and it doesn’t work. He uses naim nova.  The details are on this topic.

Chrissu thinks the mc200cm doesn’t work certainly with naim....  Can you help?

Been skiing. Yes i use the 110cs in both of my setups. 200 won't work I think and has been reported as so on some forums. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

a network streaming tweak is a tweak irrespective of whether its for NDS or UQ2!!

True, but if you're looking for improved sound quality, you could easily blow, say,  £1000 on network 'tweaks' only to find that they produced subtle changes/subjective improvements. With an NDS, this might be justified, but with a Unitiqute, you're into major hardware upgrade territory. 

well i think most of these tweaks as per my post cost very little - that is the whole point tweaks don't need to be expensive and there is a lot of bling for not insignificant sums that to my mind are aimed at the gullble.

You are right, of course, tweaks can be very cheap. I was really referring to what you described earlier as Bling and ‘Feel Good Factor’ tweaks. There seem to be a never ending number of these, and they apparently become a hobby in themselves for some. A handful of ferrites, might only cost a few pence, but then a Chord Music Ethernet cable costs £3800!  

Also, here is how I have my TP Link 110cs hooked up: Upstream nearest the rendu it’s powered by an HDPLEX at 5v (sounds better than 12) with a dc ground shunt. Downstream powered by an iFi on a different circuit, also dc ground shunt. Ghent JSSG ethernet cable from FMC to rendu. The dip switch setting on the 110 makes a difference I found out recently. I had mine all wrong. Now it’s left to right: TP Dis (not Auto), TP 100M, TP HD (half duplex not full), LFP off. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

charlesphoto posted:

Simon I would say you are right about most things, but don’t knock the fiber media converters until you’ve actually tried them. I know I would certainly love to lose mine and their accompanying power supplies but whenever I remove them the noise (mostly as a harsher treble) is back and instrument separation not as good. It can sound a bit zingier, but more fatiguing. So please explain more how this is wrong? 

Plus, these things are dirt cheap in the scheme of things (for Naim, microRendu, and most only 10/100 is needed). And if you order from that big river site you can always return if they make things sound worse. 

Charles, I have used these at work - they are a necessary annoyance in some circumstances where you have very long runs between devices that don't support SFPs ... most converters i have seen are rather basic devices with little or no apparent attention to carrier clock accuracy and power supply regulation from what I can see... and as I say they are irrelevant from a functional point of view as Naim  don't currently Fibre SFPs... I am not denying you are changing the sonic profile - but I am sure you could achieve the same thing with experimenting with various cheap ethernet cables and some ferrite chokes whilst maintaining improved reliability ... and I suspect you may also be adding noise into the equation especially if you are using a quality switch... and reading the above posts of some of the issues some people are now having who are toying with unnecessary gadgets  really takes the biscuit. One should be enjoying your music - if you have spare funds - buy some music... from a streaming point of view number one rule is Keep It Simple ... and Naim have designed their interfaces to connect to a switch port either directly via wired ethernet or via wifi WLAN... this is important as there are internal timing and TCP optimisations based on the connection type.

Thing is, I’ve done all of those things already you mention. I can’t understand if the sound is better with the FMC’s (and I lived with the same setup a long time without) then what is detrimental that is being added? And I’m not just saying this to piss off the IT’s in the world. Hundreds, if not thousands at this point, have discovered this tweak for themselves. I think what works in a industrial commercial sense doesn’t always translate to consumer use and vice versa. Plus, network audio is a moving target at this point and it’s best to not discount anything until you’ve actually heard it yourself.