Naim Audio party pooper.

yeti42 posted:

I knew a chap threw up on someones record player at a party, he opened the lid first mind, he’d had nothing other than alcohol either. 

what was playing?

TOBYJUG posted:

For proper party levels you really want a speaker that's efficient and with at least 10 inch woofers that have massive magnets to keep them on time.

No matter what power amp your using - going into slim floorstanders with average 4/5 inch woofers, it will go loud but still won't move air.    

Yup, I recall visiting a Naim dealer in the Eastern part of Germany who had a lovely restored pair of JBL 4343s that were brought out especially for parties.  When I visited he had them in the shop playing with just a NAIT 5i and (I think) CDX2 and the performance was simply sublime even at modest listening levels.  I thought why just get them out for parties??  I'd be tempted to have them around all the time.

For my own party time, I get out a slight more modest pair of JBL 4311s that apparently originally used to be in Martin Birch's studio (I do like like to wonder which DP albums were possibly mixed through them).  Great fun!

If the power handling capability of the speakers is adequate, then given that digital sources and preamps are capable of fully driving any normal power amp - including the NAP300 - the maximum sound level in the room is purely a function of power amp power capability, speaker sensitivity and room characteristics, notably size and absorbency - the last very much affected by the number of absorbent bodies in it.

It is nothing whatever to do with the cost of any of the components -you can have efficient expensive speakers and inefficient cheap speakers or vice versa, high power amps that are cheap and low power amps that are expensive, and vice versa.

Dynaudio 3.4 speakers have a sensitivity of 86dB/W, which is on the inefficient side (e.g. requiring twice the power for the same sound level as 89dB/W speakers). The NAP 300 is rated at 90W into 8Ω, maybe 150 into the Dynaudio’s 4Ω, with a maximum peak level of 500VA. This corresponds to a maximum average sound level of 109-110dB average, and 500VA peak which is 113dB maximum on peaks, 1m from the speakers, ignoring any room effects. Fill the room with bodies, with the speakers at normal height, and it will be a lot less over most of the room. A trick to improve sound level during a party is to raise the speakers above head height - e.g. lying on their sides on top of bookcases. The wall and ceiling proximity effect is unlikely to be a disadvantage during a party.

(Reposted due to errors) 

Well the amps are due a service anyway and we will see what that brings as far as speakers go I only just got away with the size of the Contours so I'm afraid even though I personally would love full size, full range speakers they won't be aloud.

Personally I feel that despite claims of amps sounding like planes taking off and chess thumping bass that Naim amps have limitations and in my room with my speakers I have found one although I would love to be proved wrong when they return from a service.

Bob, if possible next time you have a party try to place the speakers against the wall and into the corners. That will boost low frequencies up to 6db and won't damage drivers like it could with a high power amplifier. 

Bob the Builder posted:

Max_B posted:

Bob (the Builder),

I know it's of no help and a little off topic, but I shiver at the idea that a Naim system close to £20,000 is used at a party, and available to guests who have had too many drinks. For that, I'd suggest a Sony Playstation into active pro speakers. The idea that it was used with LPs makes me even more shivering. It's not a critic to you, but my own plain sensitivity. A party, better yet, needs Spotify. Anyway, I hate parties so my opinion is biased and probably useless.

Best

M.

 

I thought snobbery was only for the British Max in any case not a party in that sense more drinks that got a bit lively anyone who could not handle a couple of drinks and started acting like a drunk teenager wouldn't be invited in the first place so no need of Playstations as I'm 48 not 14.

Bob, I am sorry but perhaps you took my post a little on the wrong side: first, I find amusing that on a post I deleted I 'accused' of snobbery another member and now it returns in my face like a boomerang; but when I spoke of a Playstation I referred to an old urban legend, that Stereophile took seriously to the point of dedicating a complete review to the machine, a few years ago, according to which the Sony Playstation was an excellent CD player. In this case, one connected to amplified pro speakers (like those used in studios, that usually sound rather good and cost much less than 'audiophile' ones) would have been a safe way to make music at a party.

In any case, I wasn't judging your party nor mocking your age; my reaction is probably due to the fact that I do not like to have people around in the home, and still become stiff when my adorable nieces get closer than one full meter to my system. As for snobbery, it is everywhere; sometimes it is called classism, sometimes racism, somewhere is seen as a right to differentiate oneself. I am not, and apologize with you if you thought I was treating you like a 14. I am 65, and my system is one of the few remaining things on which I rely for some pleasure in the terrifying future that awaits us all.

Friendly

M.

(P.S. The Sony Playstation, after a long and accurate listening test, was generously judged as vaguely adequate).

One of the things we liked about our 300, partnered with a 252, was how loud it could go without sounding hard, strained, out of its depth, and all that. I suppose it depends on many things. We came from valves, so the 300 probably did sound superb at high volumes by comparison. But we never flinched or wanted more from ours. Funny old world eh?

Our 500 grips like you wouldn't believe. I'm sure it would go louder than a 300 without breaking a sweat. But the 300 never sounded out of its depth when rattling doors in our house, and butch through the 500 is, it's more about delicacy, nuance and grip, than pile driving.

I'm afraid a service won't do much to improve the volume level, the problem is the speakers need more power to play at those kind of listening levels. The Dyns sound absolutely great, even with less modest Naim amps, but to get the kind of volume I think you want, you are going to have to get something like the former owner had.

Of course the whole presentation will change going to something like a Hegel amp, but you really can't have your cake and eat it too. At least not with the Contour speakers you have. Of course you can buy more efficient speakers, but then again, the whole presentation will change from what you have now.

I would try something like a Focal speaker or Proac speaker to see if that makes a difference.

Max_B posted:

(P.S. The Sony Playstation, after a long and accurate listening test, was generously judged as vaguely adequate).

Max,

I have done the Play Station 1 experiment into the system and thought it sounded fine.Very smooth and no digital harshness at all.Nice enough sound - but thought it was lacking a bit of swagger with rock.

I remember a big thread on PFM years ago and thought I would investigate as I had a Playstation 1 in the cupboard.

At 86db/w your speakers aren't that efficient so that will be a big factor, Bob. But with a 300 one way of telling whether it is working hard is if the cooling fans kick in. Did they during your party? 

Brubacca posted:

Dynaudio speakers need Watts. Especially at high volumes. Naim amplification is just not suitable at Party Levels. 

Maybe get an amp you can use a parties as a secondary. Something like a Rogue Audio Medusa?  

Sorry but that is b****cks.

Longtime Dynaudio-Naim user. 

Olly

One hopes the 10-15 service is more than mere ritual.  It is probably a good sign that pieces that are due sound sub-par.

I hope you find the services worth the money - I bet you will.

Nick

Bob the Builder posted:

yeti42 posted:

I knew a chap threw up on someones record player at a party, he opened the lid first mind, he’d had nothing other than alcohol either. 

what was playing?

AC/DC I think, which he would have approved of so it wasn’t music criticism. Anyway it was playing from a cassette tape, the turntable was innocent. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

If the power handling capability of the speakers is adequate, then given that digital sources and preamps are capable of fully driving any normal power amp - including the NAP300 - the maximum sound level in the room is purely a function of power amp power capability, speaker sensitivity and room characteristics, notably size and absorbency - the last very much affected by the number of absorbent bodies in it.

It is nothing whatever to do with the cost of any of the components -you can have efficient expensive speakers and inefficient cheap speakers or vice versa, high power amps that are cheap and low power amps that are expensive, and vice versa.

Dynaudio 3.4 speakers have a sensitivity of 86dB/W, which is on the inefficient side (e.g. requiring twice the power for the same sound level as 89dB/W speakers). The NAP 300 is rated at 90W into 8Ω, maybe 150 into the Dynaudio’s 4Ω, with a maximum peak level of 500VA. This corresponds to a maximum average sound level of 109-110dB average, and 500VA peak which is 113dB maximum on peaks, 1m from the speakers, ignoring any room effects. Fill the room with bodies, with the speakers at normal height, and it will be a lot less over most of the room. A trick to improve sound level during a party is to raise the speakers above head height - e.g. lying on their sides on top of bookcases. The wall and ceiling proximity effect is unlikely to be a disadvantage during a party.

 

(Reposted due to errors) 

IB is absolutely correct, you should be able to easily get to 103dB (continuous) in the room.

I would add that 103dB is more than party level, in fact it's ear damaging level (at 103dB the permitted exposure time for repeated exposure is 7.5 minutes per day!)

Something's wrong (cables or speaker crossovers perhaps?).

I have contour C20(86db 4ohm)driven by a lowly 250DR in a 25'x20' room and I can crank it up loud enough to run you out of the room. I do it regularly to empty the room. I have no issues with it getting loud and sounding great. Seems as though something is off in your system. 

spurrier sucks posted:

I have contour C20(86db 4ohm)driven by a lowly 250DR in a 25'x20' room and I can crank it up loud enough to run you out of the room. I do it regularly to empty the room. 

Open the windows and watch all that dust just fly out.

TOBYJUG posted:

spurrier sucks posted:

I have contour C20(86db 4ohm)driven by a lowly 250DR in a 25'x20' room and I can crank it up loud enough to run you out of the room. I do it regularly to empty the room. 

Open the windows and watch all that dust just fly out.

Wrong way round.   Old radio adage...

"The more you open the window, the more the muck flies in."

The effect of bodies in the room cannot be under-estimated. I first learnt this from experience when, many moons ago, I offered my hifi system for background music in a church hall for a Christmas Fair. It was my first but one system, using my second pair of homemade speakers (no idea of sensitivity - probably average-ish. Amp was Sinclair project 60, IIRC the 25W option. Hall was probably about 100ft by 50ft by 20ft. System was on a stage about 6ft high. While the hall was being set up the evening before, with maybe a dozen or two people spread around in it, a moderate volume setting, perhaps 1/3rd, was quite adequate, clearly audible at the far end without being excessively loud at the front. Next day, with a few hundred people in it, I had it on full volume, audible but still comfortable at the front, completely inaudible by half way back.

As for amp power and speaker sensitivity, some 30 years ago I used to run a rock disco, using my 50W hifi amp. One of my regular venues was a pub of about 300 capacity. It was capable of playing very loud, due to the 105dB/W sensitivity of the horn speakers I was using (the character of which led to the best compliment possible -someone coming in and saying they thought it was a live band until they saw me). That sensitivity meant that at 1m the sound level with my meagre 50W amp could reach 125dB - though of course less amid the punters. I only got it up to max once, a Reading Rock festival lunchtime before people headed off to the nearby festival site, when the pub had been packed (I guess over 400 people) Soneone once asked me what power I was running, 2K, 3K? Those were the sort of powers live ban PAs were - he wouldn’t believe me when I said 100W total...

MDS posted:

At 86db/w your speakers aren't that efficient so that will be a big factor, Bob. But with a 300 one way of telling whether it is working hard is if the cooling fans kick in. Did they during your party? 

Yes the cooling fans were running I could hear them up close. I'm afraid that as unbelievable as it is to some,  with these speakers and in my room the 300 just ran out of steam, amp>>speaker>>room mismatch. The good news for me is that at normal levels they sound great and I'm sure after a service even better it is just when you own a sports car occasionally you want to open it up a bit.

Speakers are and always will be as I am continually learning the most crucial part of any system and unless you have the means and the dealers to accommodate you they will always take the longest time to get right.  Every speaker and Naim amp combo I have had from CB Nap 90, CB 110, Olive 250, Classic UQ 2, 150, 200, 250-2 and now the 300 have all struggled at very loud levels which tells me maybe my room is playing a big part in all this although when we first moved into this house about 20 years ago and we had these big old three way Pioneer speakers a Nad c370 amp and a Technics 1210 it wasn't an issue.

I'm not saying cable dressing, speaker placement or change and an amp service will not help but with all eight Naim power amps I have owned this under powering seems to be a recurring theme but maybe I'm terribly unlucky.

Bob the Builder posted:

How is it that you can own an amp that cost rrp. of over £10,000 speakers that cost rrp. £4,500 and a mid spec LP12 and have it struggle badly at party listening levels?

We had friends over had a few too many drinks and cranked the music up, up until 20 to on the dial everything is sounding ok but at a quarter to things start to deteriorate and at 10 to sounds terrible.

The guy I bought the speakers from used a Hegel H200 which still sounded the same right up to 12 on the dial so I know the speakers are fine with loudness.

So it must be the amp which struggled and to such a degree that when I put my ear close to it the hum was so bad I turned it down quickly afraid it might do lasting damage.

Now of course I only crank it up once in a very blue moon but still it would be nice to know that I could if I wanted to.

Is this a feature of Naim amps mine are due a service and will be getting one in the coming months anyway but will that change the fact they sound bad when pushed or are Naim amps just under powered. Could it be a set up issue my rack is due a break down and rebuild so I will try and optimise cables etc and also try different speaker placement but honestly I cannot see that solving this particular problem.

I'm at 300 level and a 500 will never happen for me so am I just going to have to accept this lack of power as a compromise?

The bad hum you heard when turned up suggests to me you've got a problem with the LP12 input to your pre-amp. If you have access to a different front-end I'd try that first before spending money on something that may not be the problem.

Innocent Bystander posted:

The effect of bodies in the room cannot be under-estimated. .

I meant over, not under-estimated!

Yes. Perhaps Naim amps are more like cats rather than dogs.   They prefer to purr, like a little play. Like the sound of a human voice. Show them the door but still stay, will go off when had enough, get those claws out when not expected.

unlike dogs that make a mess, make a lot of noise, lick their balls in front of your friends, stick their nose up inappropriate places, will keep eating until they are sick everywhere etc.   

Bob the Builder posted:

 

We had friends over had a few too many drinks and cranked the music up, up until 20 to on the dial everything is sounding ok but at a quarter to things start to deteriorate and at 10 to sounds terrible.

The guy I bought the speakers from used a Hegel H200 which still sounded the same right up to 12 on the dial so I know the speakers are fine with loudness.

So it must be the amp which struggled and to such a degree that when I put my ear close to it the hum was so bad I turned it down quickly afraid it might do lasting damage.

 

Reading this again I realise I have missed one important part of the original post: I focussed on the terrible sound and lack of adequate volume, but missed the hum.

The hum aspect is rather confusing. Assuming  it is not simply the same relative level of hum (as a proportion of the signal level), it is suggests something else is going on, and I am unclear as to what.

Now the party is over, try playing with the amp: is there any hum at low levels? Is it there with volume set high, and if so is it higher in proportion to the signal? Is the hum the same with different inputs selected? I think it is worth doing some tests and reporting back.

————-

Otherwise, the volume control setting used with a different amp is irrelevant, as different amps may have different gains.

And as for sounding terrible, this suggests distortion. Two common causes of distortion occurring as volume is turned up are 1) Amplifier clipping as it has run out of steam, and 2) speakers being overloaded by an amp too powerful for them. Dynaudio quote power handling capacity as 270W, and NAP300 90W, both RMS, so it would seem more likely to be the former.

Innocent bystander has a good point. Hum is a ground issue possibly, maybe a result of the MacBook? How is it wired in? Also, if we think about the old days of the tape deck recording on low recording volume because you forgot to adjust the level, and when you played it back and had to crank it up to hear it and it was awfully distorted, only to realize later what you did wrong. Was there a dual volume setting such as the music software volume and the actual MacBook volume set at 50% volume or even less? That would distort your sound terribly. Just a guess.

scott