Naim Audio party pooper.

Max_B posted:

Bob (the Builder),

I know it's of no help and a little off topic, but I shiver at the idea that a Naim system close to £20,000 is used at a party, and available to guests who have had too many drinks. For that, I'd suggest a Sony Playstation into active pro speakers. The idea that it was used with LPs makes me even more shivering. It's not a critic to you, but my own plain sensitivity. A party, better yet, needs Spotify. Anyway, I hate parties so my opinion is biased and probably useless.

Best

M.

 

I can think of no better use for my system than to get people off their backsides and dancing. Most of them, especially my wife, think they are not audiophiles, but a good system makes it easier to get the party moving. I, of course, have to remain sat on my backside, in my capacity as DJ.

TOBYJUG posted:

Yes. Perhaps Naim amps are more like cats rather than dogs.   They prefer to purr, like a little play. Like the sound of a human voice. Show them the door but still stay, will go off when had enough, get those claws out when not expected.

unlike dogs that make a mess, make a lot of noise, lick their balls in front of your friends, stick their nose up inappropriate places, will keep eating until they are sick everywhere etc.   

I have only one thing to say in reply... dogs have family; cats have staff!

(oh and perhaps a pair of JBL EON610s for parties?)

The OP has already stated that every Naim amp he's owned has had trouble at high volumes, it's definitely a room- speaker problem, while his amps may need a service, more efficient speakers will go a long way in giving this member what he's looking for.

I know the Dyn- Naim combo is a great one, but until you hear more efficient speakers in the same room, you really won't realize the difference it can make. I just auditioned 91.5db efficient speakers, and the difference was not subtle. The Dyns I have are rated at  87db sensitivity, and the difference was dramatic.

rega1 posted:

Was there a dual volume setting such as the music software volume and the actual MacBook volume set at 50% volume or even less? That would distort your sound terribly. Just a guess.

I think the Mac was only the server/renderer so Mac volume doesn’t come into it - and anyway it was worse with LP12. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

I think the Mac was only the server/renderer so Mac volume doesn’t come into it - and anyway it was worse with LP12. 

If it was the server then no the Mac’s volume wouldn’t come into it.  If it was the rendered (a.k.a. The player) then yes the Mac’s volume would (or at least could) come into it

Bob the Builder posted:

MDS posted:

At 86db/w your speakers aren't that efficient so that will be a big factor, Bob. But with a 300 one way of telling whether it is working hard is if the cooling fans kick in. Did they during your party? 

Yes the cooling fans were running I could hear them up close. I'm afraid that as unbelievable as it is to some,  with these speakers and in my room the 300 just ran out of steam, amp>>speaker>>room mismatch. The good news for me is that at normal levels they sound great and I'm sure after a service even better it is just when you own a sports car occasionally you want to open it up a bit.

Speakers are and always will be as I am continually learning the most crucial part of any system and unless you have the means and the dealers to accommodate you they will always take the longest time to get right.  Every speaker and Naim amp combo I have had from CB Nap 90, CB 110, Olive 250, Classic UQ 2, 150, 200, 250-2 and now the 300 have all struggled at very loud levels which tells me maybe my room is playing a big part in all this although when we first moved into this house about 20 years ago and we had these big old three way Pioneer speakers a Nad c370 amp and a Technics 1210 it wasn't an issue.

I'm not saying cable dressing, speaker placement or change and an amp service will not help but with all eight Naim power amps I have owned this under powering seems to be a recurring theme but maybe I'm terribly unlucky.

you're either the most unlucky Naim owner, have not used NACA5 (unlikely - can't be for all 8 amps surely?) or something not set up right.

I've got the exactly opposite experience, I've had many years of my daughters parties with  both B&W and Dynaudio speakers blasting away in my garden, with no amp shut downs, no speaker or amp damage.

At these high level the amps start demanding a lot current, so maybe it's not bad luck at all, just maybe your mains wiring...

Oh well, good luck anyway. There's always an alternative for PA levels at parties anyway - like renting/buying some active monitors meant for that kind of party?

analogmusic posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

MDS posted:

At 86db/w your speakers aren't that efficient so that will be a big factor, Bob. But with a 300 one way of telling whether it is working hard is if the cooling fans kick in. Did they during your party? 

Yes the cooling fans were running I could hear them up close. I'm afraid that as unbelievable as it is to some,  with these speakers and in my room the 300 just ran out of steam, amp>>speaker>>room mismatch. The good news for me is that at normal levels they sound great and I'm sure after a service even better it is just when you own a sports car occasionally you want to open it up a bit.

Speakers are and always will be as I am continually learning the most crucial part of any system and unless you have the means and the dealers to accommodate you they will always take the longest time to get right.  Every speaker and Naim amp combo I have had from CB Nap 90, CB 110, Olive 250, Classic UQ 2, 150, 200, 250-2 and now the 300 have all struggled at very loud levels which tells me maybe my room is playing a big part in all this although when we first moved into this house about 20 years ago and we had these big old three way Pioneer speakers a Nad c370 amp and a Technics 1210 it wasn't an issue.

I'm not saying cable dressing, speaker placement or change and an amp service will not help but with all eight Naim power amps I have owned this under powering seems to be a recurring theme but maybe I'm terribly unlucky.

you're either the most unlucky Naim owner, have not used NACA5 (unlikely - can't be for all 8 amps surely?) or something not set up right.

 

 

I used Naca 4 with the 90 and Naca 5 with all the other amps up to and including the 200 so this is not a speaker wire or an interconnect problem the only non naim interconnects I have used have been Chord Company it could possibly be the Burndies they are looped to keep them from the floor.  I will try to remedy this at some point although would this have them sounding normal at low levels?

Don't know if this is at all relevant but the source material was old mid to late 80's vinyl which I have to say apart from some of the Reggae I have from the same period is not the best in SQ used to sound great on my old 1210 and with big Japanese war horse amps but not so good on better quality kit.  

It could be a combination of all of the above and may take a while to sort out. In the short term I will break the rack down and re connect paying attention to those Burndies I will also mess about with speaker placement and in the long term get the 300 serviced and because I was going to try this anyway for synergies sake try some Nac A5 again.

Ah... vinyl. Now, it may just be that the combination of your TT/arm/cart and old '80s vinyl was putting a lot of LF and subsonic energy through the system. I'm guessing that the Dino does not use any subsonic filtering, in which case your NAP300 would have been working really hard trying to amplify this and drive the Dynaudios. You can sometimes see this as the woofers in the speakers wobble alarmingly and yet you don't seem to hear much noise as the frequency is so low.  Maybe that was the cause?

Bob (the builder),

my apologies hang around unnoticed like the last child sitting on the school's stairs waiting for his late mom to come and get him. As he (or she) would be relieved to see the familiar car approaching, so I would be glad to take notice you took notice of them.

Best

Max

Richard Dane posted:

Ah... vinyl. Now, it may just be that the combination of your TT/arm/cart and old '80s vinyl was putting a lot of LF and subsonic energy through the system. I'm guessing that the Dino does not use any subsonic filtering, in which case your NAP300 would have been working really hard trying to amplify this and drive the Dynaudios. 

I had wondered the same. 

C. 

Max_B posted:

Bob (the builder),

my apologies hang around unnoticed like the last child sitting on the school's stairs waiting for his late mom to come and get him. As he (or she) would be relieved to see the familiar car approaching, so I would be glad to take notice you took notice of them.

Best

Max

Thank you Max for your time and effort and my apologies for misunderstanding your original post perhaps sometimes things get lost in translation.

Thanks

Bob

Richard Dane posted:

Ah... vinyl. Now, it may just be that the combination of your TT/arm/cart and old '80s vinyl was putting a lot of LF and subsonic energy through the system. I'm guessing that the Dino does not use any subsonic filtering, in which case your NAP300 would have been working really hard trying to amplify this and drive the Dynaudios. You can sometimes see this as the woofers in the speakers wobble alarmingly and yet you don't seem to hear much noise as the frequency is so low.  Maybe that was the cause?

Very interesting Richard because I'm pretty much exclusively into vinyl and own lots of it from the 80's and 90's and did notice that the woofers were really, really working overtime at the same time as the fans in the 300 where whirring away.

I'm afraid I'm ignorant until now of the negative effects of LF subsonic energy but it does make a lot of sense as I said earlier in the thread the system sounded less bad distortion wise when we were streaming and looking back the girls were streaming using my other half's Google Chromecast/2Qute not my mac/spdif converter/2Qute which would explain why the system sounded not optimal but less distorted.  Streaming 80's House and Soul music from Tidal through a google CC will never sound that great but it was less distorted.

Do any of you know of any phono stages that have subsonic filtering a quick google threw up a Cambridge Audio 640 which are cheap and could be inserted as test.

Is there a build up of dust/fluff on the needle.

A couple of things - check your record deck set-up. If the resonant frequency of arm and cart combination is too low then it makes this kind of problem much worse - the compliance of the cartridge and the mass of the arm need to be well matched. 

Also, if there's bass energy from the speakers and room being fed back into the record playing loop then this can make matters a lot worse. 

For a cheap test you could just insert something like a graphic equaliser (some even come with a with subsonic filter switch). Phono stages that comply with IEC RIAA EQ usually have a steep subsonic cut off around 20Hz. It's controversial though, and most high end stages stick with either RIAA or ERIAA curves on the basis that there is information on some LPs below 20Hz and that the issues that the IEC RIAA attempts to avoid can be otherwise ameliorated through best design, setup and positioning of the record playing equipment.

I used to see alot of pumping bass drivers when I had  a Manticore, it never happened with the Rock, even after the bellows feet, I don’t know about my current deck as I can’t see the bass drives on the NBLs. The Manticore and LP12 have some similarity in that they’re both undamped suspended decks. Do you have your Linn on a wall shelf attached to a solid wall? ( I assume a builder would know what his walls are made of). As you probably feel somewhat attached to the deck that might be your best bet.

TT set up could be significant. I've heard some awful sounding expensive systems with poorly sited/set up/fettled turntables.  OK at low to medium level. Not OK at all when cranked up. I'm not talking about clipping.

I still can't get my mind around a 300DR running out of steam. I think plaster would fall off my ceiling first or my eardrums implode - or both. Come to think if it, my neighbours would probably implode me first! 

It's easy to forget the old issues of vinyl replay in these days of "clean" digital.  The subsonic filter was also sometimes called a warp filter as warpage could so just the same thing.  When you see the bass driver excursions that could sometimes accompany these warps it's no wonder even the most powerful amps could sometimes overheat or just shutdown if also replayed at high levels

BtB,

My former Dyn's (Contour 1.8mk 2's) were also a 4 ohm load but very power hungry when the volume was raised (then via 52/Olive 250), with the latter shutting down after c.15 mins at high levels when fed via Naim CD player. I ran my Dyn's with a 500 for a while and the fan came on at higher levels, which has never happened with other 8 ohmers I've used. Add in a room full of sound absorbing people and I'm not surprised by the issues you've reported (assuming the 3.4s are not dissimilar in behaviour to 1.8s). My thoughts are from experience:

1- could be a signal feed issue as the cause/material contributor as raised above vis the LP12 etc  - I have heard a 300 'go loud' in to demanding speakers (via CD) and all was OK, albeit the fan was on. 'Lower quality' signals (to use a phrase) can place a big strain on the amp chain, not forgetting that amplification of vinyl signal is often far above that of signal levels from tuners and CD players. e.g. In my room loud CD replay is ~9 on the pre-amp and loud for vinyl via LP12/Superline/Supercap/low output MC cartridge is 11-30ish. 

2-  Check the power cabling to the amp sections. I have felt amps running very hot and not sounding 'right' due to the IECs not being fully pushed home.

It's my belief that Naim's amps are best matched to easier to drive 'efficient' 8 ohm speakers, which allows the transients to swing and not have to face in to a 'sucking' 4 ohm speaker set-up recognising that, at normal listening levels, this aspect doesn't normally present/reveal itself. 

analogmusic posted:

you're either the most unlucky Naim owner, have not used NACA5 (unlikely - can't be for all 8 amps surely?) or something not set up right.

I've got the exactly opposite experience, I've had many years of my daughters parties with  both B&W and Dynaudio speakers blasting away in my garden, with no amp shut downs, no speaker or amp damage.

At these high level the amps start demanding a lot current, so maybe it's not bad luck at all, just maybe your mains wiring...

Oh well, good luck anyway. There's always an alternative for PA levels at parties anyway - like renting/buying some active monitors meant for that kind of party?

 

Playing successfully outdoors doesn’t confirm anything unless you mean very loud despite the speakers floor standing and the area  packed full of people.

and I can’t see mains wiring limitin volume or causeing distortion like that in practice.

Richard Dane posted:

It's easy to forget the old issues of vinyl replay in these days of "clean" digital.  The subsonic filter was also sometimes called a warp filter as warpage could so just the same thing.  When you see the bass driver excursions that could sometimes accompany these warps it's no wonder even the most powerful amps could sometimes overheat or just shutdown if also replayed at high levels

This however is a very plausible explanation, with the vinyl source, though maybe not the Mac unless the music had been ripped from a vinyl source. One would expect it to vary between disks: if not then maybe acoustic feedback suggested by someone could be the cause tprather than subsonics on the disk etc, though in practical terms the same effect).

But could it explain the hum? Was the hum was the ‘normal’ mains frequency type? If yes, then most likely a normal cause like poor shielding/wiring somewhere or a ground loop, but if not then then it is possible you were hearing the resonant frequency of something, possibly due to acoustic feedback.

Naim amps are actually quite good into lower impedances and higher phase angles due to their high current capable output stages.

Of course when you get into realm of silly (amp torturing) speakers (<1.5Ω impedance or >> 45° phase angle at any point in the frequency spectrum ) combined with silly >100dB (i.e. ear damaging) volumes, then the extreme (>500W) silly amps start to come into their own.

Bob,

thank you too.

M.

Bob,
Just my experience...
I had the same speakers as you, Contour s3.4 and I was driving them with Nait 5!!
At one point, I cranked the volume to 100%, something I never did in any system I had.
I did it for a minute only, but the distortion was not too terrible which says a lot about the stability of Naim amps.
This generation of Contours is not as power hungry as the older series. I think a good clue for distortion is in vinyl as a source.
My problem with Contours was that they were very slow and needed 10 o'clock to start breathing (I added Nap 150 later).
I am a happy owner of Guru QM10 now, powered by NAP 200.

Have no idea about other Dynaudio models but my 250Dr was a water gun for the C1. Their owner tames them with 500W@4ohm dual monos. Really wanted to like these, they are something to look at. Too bad not much to listen to.

One more thing. One could always assume some speakers sound great and are well driven by an amp, until the amp gets changed with something 3x times more powerful.