What Streaming System can perform better than a CDX2 + XPSDR

Filipe posted:

I have a 282+SuperCap DR into 300DR with a full SL loom. Until recently I played CDs through my nDAC + XPSDR, and found the change to a loaned DC1 BNC to BNC digital interconnect (previously Chord Clearway) lifted performance even further. Really pretty happy, but always curious.

I’ve been comparing the CDX2 to a loan UnitiServe SSD and Core. These are not quite as good as the CDX2, but the pseudo streamers also have other annoying issues. 

A week ago, inspired by Simon in Suffolk’s love of the bare CDX2, I gave the bare CDX2 a try and could see why he might like it especially as it got run in a bit. It was quite revealing if a bit hard compared to my previous configuration which was warm with a really good soundstage etc. On Sunday I put the XPSDR on the CDX2 and the SL IC. This morning (2 days later) the SQ started improving in leaps and bounds and is now the best it’s ever been, and presumably it will continue to improved. The CDX2 was a fairly mature dealer clearance at a really good price so it must have been used for its analogue output as well and may no5 need a lengthy run in period. 

My questions is which  streamer solution would better the CDX2. To compare like with like it would have to have a Power Supply no better on the streamer than the CDX2 as a 555DR bound to give an advantage over an XPSDR. I really would like responses based on plenty of experience of the transition.

My plan would be to part exchange the CDX2 and nDAC after a lengthy demo. I’d like to have TIDAL as the main bonus.

I have a LENOVO IX2 RAID 1 2GB NAS which has worked well with the US and Core. It and the streamer are attached direct to the BT Hub 5 which has had no discovery problems. I play the tv/blue ray/Apple TV/Humax sat box through the nDAC via a 5m toslink. Without the XPSDR the nDAC sounds more digital and not really warm, but very enjoyable all the same.

My dealer is getting an NDX for me to try. I suspect the NDS is the only one to better the CDX2. Might wait to see if February shows bring an announcement of a new classic streamer.

Looking forward to hearing your experiences.

Phil

i think to remember that simon preferred ndx ndac xps2 to cdx2 xps2, the ndx streaming from the serve. 

For ndx xps2 ( without ndac),  i read that some prefer the cdx2 xps2, some the ndx xps2....

The dac of the ndac is better than the dac of the ndx.

If you don't want a streamer, I would consider a Unitiserve, Core, or other storage with SPDIF output, and look for a nice used 555 for the NDAC. (Other DACs are available, of course!)

ChrisSU posted:

If you don't want a streamer, I would consider a Unitiserve, Core, or other storage with SPDIF output, and look for a nice used 555 for the NDAC. (Other DACs are available, of course!)

you think that unitserve ndac 555 in spdif is better than cdx2 xps2?   Flipe preferred the cdx2 vs unitserve ndac and the 555 is a lot of money....  I am also curious to know how a unitserve / ndac/ 555 in dc1 can perform.

French Rooster posted:

you think that unitserve ndac 555 in spdif is better than cdx2 xps2? 

 

Wiping the floor with it comes to mind.

French Rooster posted:

ChrisSU posted:

If you don't want a streamer, I would consider a Unitiserve, Core, or other storage with SPDIF output, and look for a nice used 555 for the NDAC. (Other DACs are available, of course!)

you think that unitserve ndac 555 in spdif is better than cdx2 xps2?   Flipe preferred the cdx2 vs unitserve ndac and the 555 is a lot of money....  I am also curious to know how a unitserve / ndac/ 555 in dc1 can perform.

I think that would be a very subjective choice, best determined by a careful listen for yourself. Selling an XPS and CDX2 and buying a used 555 might not be so expensive. Or try a Hugo and have some cash left in the bank!

NDX would be a sidewise move to CDX2.

ONly NDS + 555PS can perform better...

Adam Zielinski posted:

NDX would be a sidewise move to CDX2.

ONly NDS + 555PS can perform better...

Thank you Adam. How would the NDS + XPSDR compare with the CDX2 + XPSDR? As NDS can take two 555s it somewhat suggests the NDS is very greedy!

It seems from the responses so far that the CDX2 is still something very special. The cost of adding TIDAL and the “convenience” of streaming from a NAS is very high. Then there are the App gremlins!

I would consider a TIDAL only solution. My dealer says that the TIDAL SQ from an iPad into nDAC is disappointing.  I have a £50 add on sound card in my PC which is connected via a 5m toslink, but it is not as good as UnitiServe or Core. Any comments?

I am also considering a preamp change to see how much that adds, but it seems that the spdif lessens SQ making the CDX2 or NDS still the better sources.

Phil

WIth an NDS, 555PS has to separate power feeds - one for the digital section and the other one for the analogue output stage. This is where I believe the key benefit of NDS is - separation of power supplies for internal components.

As a streamer NDS appears a little bit underwhelming when first tested. But one only realises how great it is, when it has to go back to the dealer after an extended demo. In my case it felt like 'who stole my music' moment...

So I just had to have it back

Adam Zielinski posted:

WIth an NDS, 555PS has to separate power feeds - one for the digital section and the other one for the analogue output stage. This is where I believe the key benefit of NDS is - separation of power supplies for internal components.

As a streamer NDS appears a little bit underwhelming when first tested. But one only realises how great it is, when it has to go back to the dealer after an extended demo. In my case it felt like 'who stole my music' moment...

So I just had to have it back

Thank you again Adam. I see you have and NDX+555 in the lounge and NDS + 555 in the music room. Are they worlds apart in SQ? I know they are into different preamps etc. You probably had a CDX2 in the past and maybe even an nDAC. Your thoughts on SQ would be appreciated. I also see a UnitiServe in your system which you may have fed into a DAC once upon a time.

My assessment is that the spdif is just not quite as good as having the DAC in the same box as the streamer. It can be improved by the Digital IC which is why the CDX2 is better than the UnitiServe + nDAC. The small differences just seem to be enough to make the sound fill the room with magical floating shimmering effects.

Phil

I recently heard an NDS/XPSDR, fed from a Melco (their middle one of the 3) via ethernet cable. 

This was with a view to replacing the CDS3.

The demo confirmed that I preferred the CDS3. 

Next step is to try the NDS with a 555PSDR versus the CDS3.

I found the NDS/XPSDR to be bettered by a Chord DAVE, when fed from the same MELCO unit (via USB).

So far, the CDS3 is staying but more comparisons to be done in the coming months.
I have owned a CDX2/XPS and CDX2/555PS before the CDS3, so this experience may well be relevant for you.
A couple of years ago, I tried an NDX/XPS versus the CDX2/XPS and found them to be broadly comparable, though not the same.

Hope this helps, FT

Hi FT

How was the Chord Dave better than the NDS/XPSDR?

Foot tapper posted:

I recently heard an NDS/XPSDR, fed from a Melco (their middle one of the 3) via ethernet cable. 

This was with a view to replacing the CDS3.

The demo confirmed that I preferred the CDS3. 

Next step is to try the NDS with a 555PSDR versus the CDS3.

I found the NDS/XPSDR to be bettered by a Chord DAVE, when fed from the same MELCO unit (via USB).

So far, the CDS3 is staying but more comparisons to be done in the coming months.
I have owned a CDX2/XPS and CDX2/555PS before the CDS3, so this experience may well be relevant for you.
A couple of years ago, I tried an NDX/XPS versus the CDX2/XPS and found them to be broadly comparable, though not the same.

Hope this helps, FT

Thank you FT 

My dealer knows my thinking and will lay on an NDX +XPSDR. Simon in S has both CDX2 and NDX, and has moved from 252 to 552 so might have a view on how much these sources can improve with a better preamp.

Phil

An NDX + Hugo was very close to my CD555 (all interconnects being equal - an important caveat when comparing DIN to non DIN sources). NDX + DAVE resulted in my CD555 being turned off.

Nick Lees posted:

An NDX + Hugo was very close to my CD555 (all interconnects being equal - an important caveat when comparing DIN to non DIN sources). NDX + DAVE resulted in my CD555 being turned off.

Thank you Nick. Did you mean Hugo rather than Dave? Did your CD555 include the 555PS? Quite a system you have!

The Dave does seem to be preferred to NDX DAC and other Naim Dacs by many. In another current thread the NDS is being compared to Linn streamers. While the Linn streamer is liked there is a preference for Naim preamp and poweramp. Lots of combinations.

My aversion is to selling on perfectly good boxes like the CDX2 which can only be better by much more expensive Naim boxes like NDS + 555DR x 1 or 2!

phil

Jan-Erik Nordoen posted:

French Rooster posted:

you think that unitserve ndac 555 in spdif is better than cdx2 xps2? 

 

Wiping the floor with it comes to mind.

i don’t understand, you find that unitserve ndac 555 is a way better than cdx2 xps2?  Flipe prefer cdx2 ndac vs unitserve ndac....He found the spdif from the serve not so good.  Have you compared ?

Filipe posted:

Nick Lees posted:

An NDX + Hugo was very close to my CD555 (all interconnects being equal - an important caveat when comparing DIN to non DIN sources). NDX + DAVE resulted in my CD555 being turned off.

Thank you Nick. Did you mean Hugo rather than Dave? Did your CD555 include the 555PS? Quite a system you have!

The Dave does seem to be preferred to NDX DAC and other Naim Dacs by many. In another current thread the NDS is being compared to Linn streamers. While the Linn streamer is liked there is a preference for Naim preamp and poweramp. Lots of combinations.

My aversion is to selling on perfectly good boxes like the CDX2 which can only be better by much more expensive Naim boxes like NDS + 555DR x 1 or 2!

phil

Yes the CD555 was powered by a 555PS, and I was wedded to physical media, having gone CD2>CDS2>CD3/555PS previously. I bought the NDX second hand merely to play a few albums I could only download (and couldn’t be bothered to burn to CD).

Then I read Simon’s (et al.) adventures with Hugo and tried it. Wow. So music was now split between CD and streaming. Hugo remains one of my best bang-per-buck hi-fi purchases ever.

Then DAVE happened. Expensive, yes. Unreturnable, definitely. More than a year or so later I’m still beguiled, and the cost utterly forgotten. As above, the CD555 is switched off until friends with CDs come round.

Nick, Thank you for the description of your journey. Nice to hear the journey for others.

Phil

analogmusic posted:

Hi FT

How was the Chord Dave better than the NDS/XPSDR?

I have a separate thread running on this.  A search should find it for you.

Best regards, FT

Foot tapper posted:

analogmusic posted:

Hi FT

How was the Chord Dave better than the NDS/XPSDR?

I have a separate thread running on this.  A search should find it for you.

Best regards, FT

FT, Why not provide the link?

Filipe posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

WIth an NDS, 555PS has to separate power feeds - one for the digital section and the other one for the analogue output stage. This is where I believe the key benefit of NDS is - separation of power supplies for internal components.

As a streamer NDS appears a little bit underwhelming when first tested. But one only realises how great it is, when it has to go back to the dealer after an extended demo. In my case it felt like 'who stole my music' moment...

So I just had to have it back

Thank you again Adam. I see you have and NDX+555 in the lounge and NDS + 555 in the music room. Are they worlds apart in SQ? I know they are into different preamps etc. You probably had a CDX2 in the past and maybe even an nDAC. Your thoughts on SQ would be appreciated. I also see a UnitiServe in your system which you may have fed into a DAC once upon a time.

My assessment is that the spdif is just not quite as good as having the DAC in the same box as the streamer. It can be improved by the Digital IC which is why the CDX2 is better than the UnitiServe + nDAC. The small differences just seem to be enough to make the sound fill the room with magical floating shimmering effects.

Phil

Hi Phil

I actually had all the components you’ve mentioned - for a while my NDX and CDX2.2 were connected to an nDAC which in turn was powered by XPS and later by 555PS (non-DR). In the digital-out mode both sounded very similar. In fact I used my CDX2 to fine-tune the streaming network, so that NDX started to sound on the same level.

I also tried UnitiServe via it’s digial out (into nDAC) and it wasn’t on a par with NDX. As you already know, quality of the digial transport does matter.

CDX2 was at it’s best, to my ears, when powered by a non-DR 555PS. 

But ultimately I stopped using it - sheer convenience and musicality of the NDS won we over.

The living room system, as you observe, has an NDX and 555PS into 282. That’s a fantastic combo too. It just shows how important is to balance a system.

Cheers,

Adam

Adam Zielinski posted:

Filipe posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

WIth an NDS, 555PS has to separate power feeds - one for the digital section and the other one for the analogue output stage. This is where I believe the key benefit of NDS is - separation of power supplies for internal components.

As a streamer NDS appears a little bit underwhelming when first tested. But one only realises how great it is, when it has to go back to the dealer after an extended demo. In my case it felt like 'who stole my music' moment...

So I just had to have it back

Thank you again Adam. I see you have and NDX+555 in the lounge and NDS + 555 in the music room. Are they worlds apart in SQ? I know they are into different preamps etc. You probably had a CDX2 in the past and maybe even an nDAC. Your thoughts on SQ would be appreciated. I also see a UnitiServe in your system which you may have fed into a DAC once upon a time.

My assessment is that the spdif is just not quite as good as having the DAC in the same box as the streamer. It can be improved by the Digital IC which is why the CDX2 is better than the UnitiServe + nDAC. The small differences just seem to be enough to make the sound fill the room with magical floating shimmering effects.

Phil

Hi Phil

I actually had all the components you’ve mentioned - for a while my NDX and CDX2.2 were connected to an nDAC which in turn was powered by XPS and later by 555PS (non-DR). In the digital-out mode both sounded very similar. In fact I used my CDX2 to fine-tune the streaming network, so that NDX started to sound on the same level.

I also tried UnitiServe via it’s digial out (into nDAC) and it wasn’t on a par with NDX. As you already know, quality of the digial transport does matter.

CDX2 was at it’s best, to my ears, when powered by a non-DR 555PS. 

But ultimately I stopped using it - sheer convenience and musicality of the NDS won we over.

The living room system, as you observe, has an NDX and 555PS into 282. That’s a fantastic combo too. It just shows how important is to balance a system.

Cheers,

Adam

 

 

Hi Adam

That’s a really good response. I completely endorse the idea of tuning using for example the CDX2 as a reference once it sounds spot on. I’m currently listening to Prince 4Ever with the CDX2 + XPSDR + SL IC and every single track is now absolutely electric without the volume being beyond 8.45! It took two days for the CDX2 to respond to the XPSDR and then the sound started opening up. Now day 3/4.

My dealer is going to provide an NDX +XPSDR to try. The dealer’s chain doesn’t have spare 555s. I bet nDAC would sound good with a 555 too! 

I suspect that, if the nDAC had a USB interface (asynchronous), Naim could build a series of really amazing modular boxes to cope with everyone’s budget and requirements. Spdif has limitations. They really need a better architecture for their top of the range systems to avoid all the duplication.

Phil

Hi, a streaming solution ‘performing’ better than a CDX2 is hard to quantify. An NDS or NDX/Hugo will give a more transparent and neutral sound with great insight and musical enjoyment.. and frankly in a way the CDX2 appears not to be able to deliver... however the CDX2 has its own sound and performance that is quite infectious from its analogue output stage, DAC and DSP. Sure it might not be the most transparent and insightful but it is highly enjoyable and really gets to the soul of some music (albeit not all).

Therefore I have multiple sources to enjoy their renditions of recordings... and for me with my current 552 I have both the CDX2 and NDX/Hugo... the latter is probably used 80% of the time, but I really enjoy the choice....

To answer Flipe’s question on preamps... I found the 252 the first of the preamps that really got me close to enjoying different sources for what they were, irrespective of presentation. The CDX2 into the 252 is sublime, but I never totally was beguiled with the CDX2 into the 282.

The 552 to my ears simply builds on the 252 just getting you closer to the recording. So far it’s the NDX/Hugo that seems to really excel with the 552 giving oodles more enjoyment and insight. With the CDX2 perhaps there is not as much difference between the 252 and 552... quite interesting...

Adam Zielinski posted:

NDX would be a sidewise move to CDX2.

ONly NDS + 555PS can perform better...

i remember that you wrote one day that cdx2/555 is a fabulous combo , different from nds/555dr but not entirely inferior sounding.  Do you still think that ?

French Rooster posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

NDX would be a sidewise move to CDX2.

ONly NDS + 555PS can perform better...

i remember that you wrote one day that cdx2/555 is a fabulous combo , different from nds/555dr but not entirely inferior sounding.  Do you still think that ?

Yes - I do. I still standby that - CDX2 is special.

They only reason I parted with it, is that my very good friend only uses CDs. So he bought it off me - he's happy. And I use my NDS

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi, a streaming solution ‘performing’ better than a CDX2 is hard to quantify. An NDS or NDX/Hugo will give a more transparent and neutral sound with great insight and musical enjoyment.. and frankly in a way the CDX2 appears not to be able to deliver... however the CDX2 has its own sound and performance that is quite infectious from its analogue output stage, DAC and DSP. Sure it might not be the most transparent and insightful but it is highly enjoyable and really gets to the soul of some music (albeit not all).

Therefore I have multiple sources to enjoy their renditions of recordings... and for me with my current 552 I have both the CDX2 and NDX/Hugo... the latter is probably used 80% of the time, but I really enjoy the choice....

Simon, thank you for your response. What music do you find suits the CDX2, and has this changed in any way with your move to the 552? Did you try a XPS PS of some sort (I’m using my XPSDR now) on your CDX2 at any time, and if so why did you stick to the bare CDX2?

I’m currently going through my CDs to find what isn’t suited. Broadly I hope to have the music create a strong emotional response. So far stuff that didn’t work before is (much) better and old favourites equally good at least as best I can remember. Broadly it is now giving a better balance across the frequency spectrum which some might describe as richer bass and mid frequencies. All the instruments and voices contribute in a more balanced way and there is excitement from shimmering effects when they are present (Prince 4Ever is notable). it the shimmering a microphonic (higher frequency) effect?

Strangely, and I don’t understand why, my vinyl of Chariots of Fire (Vangelis) sounds much better. Just makes me feel that the interconnection of the boxes affects the whole system in subtle ways.

Nick Lees commented above that he went NDX/Hugo firstly and then to NDX/Dave. Would you think the Dave to be better?

Phil