Naim + Harbeth is a great match. Maybe not for everyone/me?

Are the speaker cables at least 3.5m long?

Have you changed the position of any furniture in the room (or anything else)?

What are the 202 & 200 standing on?  Are they standing on each other?

What is the source component?

Are your speakers in the same position ?  Changing the electronics will give a different presentation that might ask for a re- evaluation of distance from each other, the back wall, from the listening seat,  rake angle and toe in.

Perhaps a smidge closer to the back wall - or let your ears run in.

Interesting comments. I used to have a Naim/Harbeth combination, though in my case it was with 30.1 speakers. My Naim/Linn system was much as described on my my profile although I didn't have a DR 250.2. I moved house and needed to rethink the speakers which required more space than was available. My view on the midrange vocals was the opposite of yours - that the combination was very expressive and seemed to give greater insight into the singing voice than I had heard before. I sold them with regret. I am not familiar with your other amplifiers but I do think that Alan Shaw's view's about amplifiers are eccentric. I don't doubt that Harbeth speakers respond to better quality amplifiers with more power. Of course it may be that my system didn't actually realise the potential of the speakers with vocals.

Clive

Yes, NAC A5 3.5m a pair. 

Nothing changed in the room. The NAP200 & NAC202 sit on a entertainment set like before. The NAC202 is sitting on top of the NAP200.

Source is same, Museatex Bitstream DAC and Squeezebox Touch.

Speakers are in the same position. I did move back/forth, closer/further. Not too much change in the vocals.

Nac sitting on top of the Nap is a really bad idea soundwise.

They need a proper surface too ( consider quadraspire or isoblue)

The mechanical support (an "entertainment set") can change the sound of the electronics when you're talking about such subtle changes as here.  This is why people buy dedicated HiFi racks.

The other thing is that it's far from ideal is having the sensitive preamp sitting right on top of the mains transformer of the power amp (I don't suppose the HiCap sitting on top of the preamp, sandwiching it between two transformers, as that's the worst arrangement of all!).

The DAC you are using is very old technology and that chipset emits a very high level of ultrasonic spuriae at it's output - this is not good for the amplifier.  Being a much more transparent amp, the 202/200 may be more clearly showing the limitations of your DAC.

The only thing that is stacked is the NAC202 & NAP200. The NAC202 is light and I did not think it would hurt anything at all. Other units are by itself.

There is one thing strange here though. We are talking about how Naim is so good in many ways but to me and to my wife with the same speakers and placements and entertainment set, the vocals/midrange is not what it used to be. How is how I place the units will change the vocals? Everything else sounds great.

My DAC maybe old but it is one of the best sounding DACs I have owned. It is a very analog sounding DAC. It did not have the vocal/midrange issue with other amps I had.

You just need to trust the advice and separate the two boxes. The big transformer in the power amp will upset the preamp. Stacking them is the best way to make them sound as bad as possible. 

The separation of the NAC202 and NAP200 isn't a matter of weight, it's about protecting the sensitive circuitry of the NAC202 from the the magnetic field of the big transformer in the NAP200.

Different amps have different components and different circuits inside.  These different parts react differently to external effects like the magnetic fields from transformers, vibrations from the surface on which they are standing and the ultrasonic mess coming out of an older DAC.

However, first try supporting the power amp and preamp better, both in separating the two components and reducing vibration from the furniture they are standing on.  This is easy to do and the materials needed to try by experimentation are cheap.  If this changes the sound then you'll see how getting a proper HiFi rack (e.g. Quadraspire as previously suggested) can greatly benefit the sound.

The amp will have been designed for use with newer DACs that don't output the same amount ultrasonic mess.  Yes, the 202/200 has protection but it may not be enough to deal cleanly with such an old DAC design.  I know about this, many years ago I designed an amp specifically to deal with the rough ultrasonic output of early Philips based DAC systems, and I know what compromises were needed in other aspects of the amps sonic abilities to stop the ultrasonics wreaking havoc on everything else.  The Japanese amplifiers are more compromised than the 202/200 in so many ways and that's why in all the sonic aspects you list they (mostly) don't sound as good as the Naim amps; some of these sonic compromises are there to deal with high level ultrasonic contamination of the audio signals at their inputs.

The Japanese amps are designed to be more compromised but also more tolerant (just "plonk and play"), whereas Naim kit is designed so it can give a better result, but it needs more careful tuning to get it to work optimally.  To use the car analogy, think of the Japanese amps as being like a Merc, and the Naim amps as being like a Ferrari; both are fast, just fill the Merc up and drive it, but the Ferrari needs more careful set-up, however, when this is done it's more rewarding to drive.

They sound pretty good then ???? I have purchased a pair with those hifi speakers recently and to me they sound far from hifi. That said, it will always depend on what you compare them to. 

My impression is the Naim amp set is far more revealing compared to what youre used to. Better resolution, more open and transparent. It may have trigged the weakness of your room acoustics as well. Also, there are more «analogue» sounding amps in the Naim range. 

S

I am posting this without reading last two posts after my last post. 

I must apologize. I have no freaking idea how or why this happened but once I put the preamp and amp separate, the vocal/midrange got back to normal plus all the goodies already came with the Naim!

How is this possible? Never thought this would happen??? Why? The preamp is not even heavy! Is something happening when it is on top of it such as interfering each other? I am baffled!

Thanks!

I have read the posts now and I understand better. In all those years, I have not witnessed any kind of change from something as easy like this. I can't believe the brightness went away. 

For confirmation that I am NOT dreaming, I called my wife after I seperated them. Wife thought I put the old system back We put the preamp back on the amp to try again. Yep, brightness is back! Geeez!

As Huge alluded to earlier, the electo-magnetic field from the large transformer in a power amp will interfere with the pre-amp section if in close proximity.  There is good reason why as you move up the Naim amp ladder, the pre and power amps are in separate boxes.  You've just discovered why.  Even if you look at the internals of Naim integrated amps, the preamp section is located as far away as possible from the transformer, and again for good reason, but in a single box still ultimately a compromise.

I'm glad the issue is now resolved. I've never really tried stacking Naim amps on top of each other so I wouldn't know how it will sound like. However, I did upgrade to a better rack and the system did sound a little better, but let's not go there. :-) Who would have expected that a simple thing of separating the amps can bring back the magic in vocals. 

I'm not familiar with the Museatex Bitstream DAC and Squeezebox Touch but in my experience the quality of the source/DAC is important and will affect the presentation of the Naim amps. With other non-Naim amps the changes may not be so prominent. 

The folks here would be inclined to help you spend your money to make your system sound better but if it sounds good, just enjoy the system as it is. 

Huge posted:

The separation of the NAC202 and NAP200 isn't a matter of weight, it's about protecting the sensitive circuitry of the NAC202 from the the magnetic field of the big transformer in the NAP200.

Different amps have different components and different circuits inside.  These different parts react differently to external effects like the magnetic fields from transformers, vibrations from the surface on which they are standing and the ultrasonic mess coming out of an older DAC.

However, first try supporting the power amp and preamp better, both in separating the two components and reducing vibration from the furniture they are standing on.  This is easy to do and the materials needed to try by experimentation are cheap.  If this changes the sound then you'll see how getting a proper HiFi rack (e.g. Quadraspire as previously suggested) can greatly benefit the sound.

The amp will have been designed for use with newer DACs that don't output the same amount ultrasonic mess.  Yes, the 202/200 has protection but it may not be enough to deal cleanly with such an old DAC design.  I know about this, many years ago I designed an amp specifically to deal with the rough ultrasonic output of early Philips based DAC systems, and I know what compromises were needed in other aspects of the amps sonic abilities to stop the ultrasonics wreaking havoc on everything else.  The Japanese amplifiers are more compromised than the 202/200 in so many ways and that's why in all the sonic aspects you list they (mostly) don't sound as good as the Naim amps; some of these sonic compromises are there to deal with high level ultrasonic contamination of the audio signals at their inputs.

The Japanese amps are designed to be more compromised but also more tolerant (just "plonk and play"), whereas Naim kit is designed so it can give a better result, but it needs more careful tuning to get it to work optimally.  To use the car analogy, think of the Japanese amps as being like a Merc, and the Naim amps as being like a Ferrari; both are fast, just fill the Merc up and drive it, but the Ferrari needs more careful set-up, however, when this is done it's more rewarding to drive.

I can surely attest to that having owned a Sony TAE9000ES pre/power and comparing it with the NAC 202/ NAP 200. There are owners (on another forum) who heard no difference between the Sony amps and the Naim, or perhaps they preferred the Sony I'm not sure. At first I too felt the same thing when I switched the amps but after a while I figured out that they sound different, and the Naim is superior. They initially sounded quite similar because the Sony can sound very good when it's a "plonk and play". When carefully set-up, the Naim is the clear winner (the Sony flagship was sold few years ago and the Naim remained). 

Actually, I never ever stack any of my equipment. The reason why I stacked because I had no space left on my set. Not even a space for another NAPSC. So, I thought well, I have seen stacked Naim photos on the net, it should be fine. I could never guess this would cause me almost getting ready to sell my Naims

It really sounds good right now. All the PROS I have written above and I got my thicker SHL5 sound back!

This does not mean I will not look for a deal on a Naim DAC/Streamer  

Not to mention, I did not have a chance to rearrange my equipment to make sure nothing was stacked. I am so glad I brought this problem here. Otherwise, I think I would have probably listed them to sell online. 

The great thing about audio is that anyone can say anything

Your amp upset the pre-amp

I’m not a physicist.  But any amp is gonna give off an electromagnetic field.  So is a pre-amp assuming it runs on electricity.   I’m not sure where the evidence is for ‘acceptable separation of fields is”

apparently we have determined that 2 inches is bad but I guess 12 or so is good.   What if it is actually the opposite and you need a new DAC, which you do.  But the problem is solved by field separation so the problem is solved

until it isn’t 

GregU posted:

The great thing about audio is that anyone can say anything

Your amp upset the pre-amp

I’m not a physicist.  But any amp is gonna give off an electromagnetic field.  So is a pre-amp assuming it runs on electricity.   I’m not sure where the evidence is for ‘acceptable separation of fields is”

apparently we have determined that 2 inches is bad but I guess 12 or so is good.   What if it is actually the opposite and you need a new DAC, which you do.  But the problem is solved by field separation so the problem is solved

until it isn’t 

   

 

 

 

If you read my previous posts, I was kinda getting uncomfortable by the way I stack them suggestion because I was thinking why a stacked equipment would affect the sound. What about integrated amplifiers then, right?

I promise to you. I am NOT dreaming. There is this song, Bermuda Highway by My Morning Jacket. My wife and I have listened to it with the preamp on top of it, it was almost I mean almost unlistenable at some parts. It would hurt our ears. Then I separated them, all the brightness is gone! We decided we want to try it again, we put the preamp back on top. The brightness is back! Do you think I am not baffled how this simple change changed a ton in sound?

No you're not dreaming - the effect is real - and known - and known to be caused by real and well understood physical effects.

When I designed and built my own amps (I changed to Naim because they are better at it than I am!) I used separate power supplies to isolate the mains and reduce interference.

One of the other good things about Naim is this community - a lot of helpful people here who can sort out teething problems and help with these set-up tips.  We're passionate about music and reproduced sound quality and would like to see everyone have the best sound they can afford in their own circumstances.

I'm pleased that the issue is resolved and you can now enjoy your system.  Your obvious delight as such a simple but 'odd' solution is also really good to see and great fun for us here! 

Huge posted:

What are the 202 & 200 standing on?  Are they standing on each other?

My respect for you, Huge. You got the right answer in your very first email on this topic.