Guide to buying bigger speakers

Hungryhalibut posted:

Before getting my SL2s I was using PMC twenty.23s. My room is about 5m long by 3.6m wide. The 23s, driven by an SU, were excellent. I tried the 21s before getting the 23s but they didn’t have the bass extension I wanted. With the SU you don’t want to spend too much on speakers, and if you like the 21s you are unlikely to go wrong with some used 23s. They are fine speakers. 

Thank you 'HH' your first hand experience is very helpful. 23's are certainly on my list, as are Kudos and Neat, I guess I was exploring the risk of going to 24's or other similar sized speakers and whether they might be too much?

I do take your point about the limitation of the SU, for my previous house it rarely got going and never broke a sweat. At the time of purchase i did eye up the shop 272 demonstrator and a NAP 250, but to be fair that would have been way over my budget at that time. i have, and continue to enjoy my SU, but I think my new location would allow me to benefit from a step up.   

Huge posted:

pete T15 posted:

What if we could take the room out of the Equation with Bigger Speakers ? 

I recently heard a pair of Active speakers with Cardioid Bass Response and DSP called Dutch and Dutch 8C . They were extremely impressive at a dealers domestic environment and to my ears they outperformed Active ATC50s with a Weiss DAC in that room . The Distance to rear (as close as 10cm) and side walls is entered via an app and DSP takes care of the lower frequencies , they work with the rear wall using it as a virtual springboard . They were very engaging to listen to with a level of clarity I'd never heard before on familiar tracks . I'll be trying a pair at home once my works are finished . 

Has anyone else come across these speakers or similar such as the Kii Three ? Very clever technology indeed !!

The problem with most DRC systems is twofold:

First they require a trip through a ADC DSP DAC system that imposes limitations on quality compared to bit perfect replay.
Second, they alter the acoustic clues (harmonic relationships, group delays / phase) quite dramatically over very short ranges of frequencies.

When these are done in the midrange then there's an inevitable loss of perceived quality compared to a straightforward replay chain using the same components (without any additional ADCs, additional DSP or additional DACs).  Restricting this processing to only the bass frequencies (where the ear is much less discriminating) reduces the detrimental audible impact of these changes.

Incidentally you can't achieve a cardioid response in bass frequencies unless you're talking about a true free space environment and very large baffles (baffle width > λ/2 each side of the driver and distance to the nearest boundary >>2λ, i.e. for 28Hz the baffle needs to be 12m wide and the distance to the nearest boundary needs to be considerably more than 24m!).

Huge, your description of DSP matches my experience. I have a 3 way DIY open baffle system driven by 6ch power and DSP active EQ. I find the sound strangely ethereal, although the vocals are often nicely placed the rest of the sound stage feels kind of mono.    

The Dutch & Dutch and Kii don't use DSP in the conventional way. My understanding is that the fidelity of acoustic cues is improved compared to normal speakers because of the time alignment. Best not to dismiss them if you haven't heard them. They will be the next speakers I audition.

ROOG posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Before getting my SL2s I was using PMC twenty.23s. My room is about 5m long by 3.6m wide. The 23s, driven by an SU, were excellent. I tried the 21s before getting the 23s but they didn’t have the bass extension I wanted. With the SU you don’t want to spend too much on speakers, and if you like the 21s you are unlikely to go wrong with some used 23s. They are fine speakers. 

Thank you 'HH' your first hand experience is very helpful. 23's are certainly on my list, as are Kudos and Neat, I guess I was exploring the risk of going to 24's or other similar sized speakers and whether they might be too much?

I do take your point about the limitation of the SU, for my previous house it rarely got going and never broke a sweat. At the time of purchase i did eye up the shop 272 demonstrator and a NAP 250, but to be fair that would have been way over my budget at that time. i have, and continue to enjoy my SU, but I think my new location would allow me to benefit from a step up.   

   

I had .23 for a few years with a SN2. It’s a very accomplished ‘speaker with good driver integration top to bottom. The .24 is not as well balanced ime.

G

If you like the character of PMCs then going up in size in their ranges is likely to be satisfying if it is better bass and scale that you want. (Based on those I’ve heard I don’t think I could be sartosfied with small speakers, and I’ve had bigger speakers in a room a little smaller than your new room, without any negative efrect to my ears and appreciation of music.)

When I switched to my present PMCs from my old IMFs, I tried a number of theirs, from Twenty26 and upwards, and found that in general he bigger they went, the better they sounded - an anomaly being the do inutive Fact12s. But as others have said, there is no substitute for hearing. If you cant borrow them, or not until final decision time, then listening at the dealer is  still worthwhile. But do make sure the dealer has the same amp as you, or take yours, and take your own speakers: listen to the hem first to get a reference point for how similar or different things may sound in the dealer’s room. I have done that at three dealers and someone’s private home with my big IMFs, and they all understood and were happy to acvomodate me.

Roog.  My room is similar size to yours but I have to fire across rather than down which means I could only allow 9” behind.  That’s where the S20s scored with their downward porting.  Home demo essential.  

Good luck,

Lindsay

Innocent Bystander posted:

If you like the character of PMCs then going up in size in their ranges is likely to be satisfying if it is better bass and scale that you want. (Based on those I’ve heard I don’t think I could be sartosfied with small speakers, and I’ve had bigger speakers in a room a little smaller than your new room, without any negative efrect to my ears and appreciation of music.)

When I switched to my present PMCs from my old IMFs, I tried a number of theirs, from Twenty26 and upwards, and found that in general he bigger they went, the better they sounded - an anomaly being the do inutive Fact12s. But as others have said, there is no substitute for hearing. If you cant borrow them, or not until final decision time, then listening at the dealer is  still worthwhile. But do make sure the dealer has the same amp as you, or take yours, and take your own speakers: listen to the hem first to get a reference point for how similar or different things may sound in the dealer’s room. I have done that at three dealers and someone’s private home with my big IMFs, and they all understood and were happy to acvomodate me.

Cheers Innocent Bystander, I agree, I do have to get of my butt and go and arrange a listen. I found out previously that dealer demo rooms can be deceptive, my local dealers room joins in with the bass like no other room i have ever heard!

I don't often ask questions here, but on this occasion I couldn't resist   :0)   

They have always offered a home demo in the past perhaps i should frighten them and take em up on the offer. 

Dozey posted:

The Dutch & Dutch and Kii don't use DSP in the conventional way. My understanding is that the fidelity of acoustic cues is improved compared to normal speakers because of the time alignment. Best not to dismiss them if you haven't heard them. They will be the next speakers I audition.

To my understanding DSP is only used in the lowest frequencies up to about 100HZ I think?? The rest seems to be clever and innovative box design. They can be fed by aDigital or Analogue signal . They are well worth some research and an audition IMO . I’ll be trying these and active ATCs at home soon . 

I also had the SN2 and PMC twenty 23 combination for a few years. They work very well together! 

I think a used pair of Sopra-2 may work. Great bass and there have been used pairs around some from Sopra-3 trade-ups

I'm sure Sopra-2's could be excellent if you have electronics to match, but on the end of a Superuniti it will be a mullet of the highest order and will most likely end in tears.

Given you like the PMC's follow HH's and others advice and give them a try they sound great with a Superuniti and are as far as I would go without upgrading the electronics.

Not allways easy going from bookshelfs to floorstanders

The more output in low end often creates other problems

A home dem is essential

Roog.  Picking up on the possibility of going tube amp in future I would consider having a listen to some Audio Note AZ Two or AZ Threes if you have a dealer nearby.  The Twos come up for reasonable money s/h but are not unreasonably priced new.  They can be placed close to the corner of the room with excellent bass benefits as this was part of the design considerations. 

I have the AZ Three Hemp and used with my Naim 102/180 happily in a room about 4.5M x 5M placed in the corners of the long wall.  After adding an Audio Note (tube) amplifier in place of the Naim they are producing bass (and all the other stuff) with fabulous musicality and realism.

ROOG posted:

Thanks DB, yes I think I might have to put on my best 'straight face' and delve in to the local HiFi shop offerings to try some out. 

Going back to the secondhand market are there any from the range of Naim floor standers which would be easy for my SU to drive?  

My SU sounded great with Ovator 400s in a 4x6m room. There was lovely finesse and great bass response. Even better when I added a 250DR, but the SU was no slouch with SU alone. Best of luck in your quest.

Hi Roog, I bought an SU about eighteen months ago. My dealer recommended either PMC23s, Focal Aria or Kudos X3. I went with the X3s as being a bit more revealing and controlling the bass better. On the downside their revealing nature makes them a tad less forgiving with badly engineered recordings.  I'm very happy with them now and believe  i made the right choice (at least for me!). My room is fairly close to the size of yours. Well worth a home audition if you can and not too pricey even new.

Dazlin posted:

Roog.  Picking up on the possibility of going tube amp in future I would consider having a listen to some Audio Note AZ Two or AZ Threes if you have a dealer nearby.  The Twos come up for reasonable money s/h but are not unreasonably priced new.  They can be placed close to the corner of the room with excellent bass benefits as this was part of the design considerations. 

I have the AZ Three Hemp and used with my Naim 102/180 happily in a room about 4.5M x 5M placed in the corners of the long wall.  After adding an Audio Note (tube) amplifier in place of the Naim they are producing bass (and all the other stuff) with fabulous musicality and realism.

Hi Dazlin, i agree with your description, ' musical' I heard some AN speakers at the Bristol show last year, I thought they were great as part of an Audio Note System. I am contemplating a visit to Hove this year to listen again under better conditions 

Kiwi cat posted:

ROOG posted:

Thanks DB, yes I think I might have to put on my best 'straight face' and delve in to the local HiFi shop offerings to try some out. 

Going back to the secondhand market are there any from the range of Naim floor standers which would be easy for my SU to drive?  

My SU sounded great with Ovator 400s in a 4x6m room. There was lovely finesse and great bass response. Even better when I added a 250DR, but the SU was no slouch with SU alone. Best of luck in your quest.

Kiwi cat, I love the idea of s/h NAim speakers, I have not heard any of the Ovator range, but perhaps I should add them to my search along with the ilusive SL2's

David Stewart posted:

Hi Roog, I bought an SU about eighteen months ago. My dealer recommended either PMC23s, Focal Aria or Kudos X3. I went with the X3s as being a bit more revealing and controlling the bass better. On the downside their revealing nature makes them a tad less forgiving with badly engineered recordings.  I'm very happy with them now and believe  i made the right choice (at least for me!). My room is fairly close to the size of yours. Well worth a home audition if you can and not too pricey even new.

Hi David, thank you for your reply, it seems that PMC's are a popular choice, but note your final selection. I must track a pair of the X3's as I did try a pair of X2's at the time I bought the twenty 21's. The missus preferred the look of the PMC's so that swung it, yes I know that was a dumb way to decide!

the plan is not to let that happen this time.

+1 for a S/H pair of Ovator S400s.  You can easily sell them on if you don't get on with them.

My room is roughly 6M L by 4M W. I had PMC 20.26s powered by a NDX/252/200 combination. I enjoyed the sound quality and musicality of the system a lot.

Since then i’ve slowly upgraded to PMC Fact 12s powered by an NDS/552/300DR combination which is really great.  The PMC range works well with Naim gear.

My advice is to listen at home if you can as room acoustics vary enormously.  Bigger speakers give bigger sound and sometimes bigger problems!  Be clear on what attributes of the sound you’re either not happy with or want to change so you can evaluate the options.

Roog

I have a very similar side room and I have my SU with PMC24's and i am very very  happy with the result. I upgraded to the 24's from 22's and found that they filled the room and improved on the bass.

Thank you all, I can see that a home demo of PMC 24's is a must. 

Hi Roog. Seems like a demo of the Twenty.23's is a no brainer... they're fantastic speakers . Interestingly enough I've compared them directly to the Twenty.21's and although the sonic character is exactly the same, the 23's give a beautiful deep extended bass that defies their small cabinet size. This ultimately gives a much more rewarding musical performance in my experience compared to the 21's. I must say that the 21's sound ever so slightly more nimble, but the 23's definitely win for me. You can pick them up at silly bargain prices now which is a bonus and their footprint will be no bigger than the 21's on stands.

I'd be interested to know how many people using large, "full range" speakers in smaller rooms (acoustically speaking that is, i.e. less than 7m in either dimension), have actually measured the LF in-room response; and are hence able to distinguish whether the bass performance actually is good, or whether they themselves just aren't sensitive to these types of bass anomalies.

Huge posted:

I'd be interested to know how many people using large, "full range" speakers in smaller rooms (acoustically speaking that is, i.e. less than 7m in either dimension), have actually measured the LF in-room response; and are hence able to distinguish whether the bass performance actually is good, or whether they themselves just aren't sensitive to these types of bass anomalies.

If it sounds good to the listener... does it actually matter?