Nova and turntable

I assume you mean that the analog input is digitised.

I’ve no experience with Nova, but my understanding is that the best digital to analog conversion is achieved when the DAC filter matches that of the ADC - and that is potentially achievable where both are supplied by the same manufacturer, so on that basis there shouldn’t be anything negative.

If you’re concerned about digital in a wider sense, I believe that the processes have improved so much that nowadays a good digital system can sound better than vinyl because vinyl itself has significant compromises affecting the sound, though some people still prefer what they hear. I would not expect the sound of vinyl to be lost through conversion to digital and back, as the sound output from the phono stage before the ADC will be the same as if it had been sent direct to the preamp. It is also worth bearing in mind with recent vinyl that it may originally have been recorded in a digital format.

I think that if playing LPs is going to be a serious part of your listening then you should certainly demo carefully and see whether the A2D presents a compromise too far for you.  When done well, an A2D2A chain can be very transparent, and with so many digital sources these days, keeping things in the digital domain within the pre-amp is a good idea. However, as always listen for yourself. 

My own view is that the best vinyl front end playing the best vinyl gets you closer to that goose-bump feeling you can get when you're listening to great music replayed extremely well. That's how I hear it for now.

Thanks guys.

Vinyls will not be the main source for my system, however I foresee investing into a good turntable and RIAA. I just wanted to get a feeling on whether that was a bad idea from the beginning hence starting looking into a separate components solution other than the Nova.

I am looking to the Nova as I use Spotify/Tidal and ripped CDs as main sources today and I want to continue that. However as I am stepping into the audio world more and more I want also to give myself the opportunity to sit down, enjoy a good whiskey to the sound of the tune of a good vinyl. I think it adds to the charm having an analogue source and seeing it spinning ... :-)

You could also think about a 272 and a used non-DR 200. The 272 has a really good analogue preamp, and is also upgradeable should you want to improve things further down the line. 

I use an LP12/Ittok/Troika/Stageline with my Nova and it sounds superb. The A2D conversion is a non issue for me especially as the Nova sounds significantly better playing vinyl than my previous Superuniti which was all analogue in that mode.

Listen for yourself and trust your ears rather than worrying about techy details.

It may not matter much but if you play a vinyl that was recorded and mixed in the analogue domain, you are going to spoil that continuity if it goes through A2D2A. I don't think any digital signal can be as pure as the analogue signal coming out of a microphone.

cat345 posted:

It may not matter much but if you play a vinyl that was recorded and mixed in the analogue domain, you are going to spoil that continuity if it goes through A2D2A. I don't think any digital signal can be as pure as the analogue signal coming out of a microphone.

In theory I agree with you... but...

Pev posted:

I use an LP12/Ittok/Troika/Stageline with my Nova and it sounds superb. The A2D conversion is a non issue for me especially as the Nova sounds significantly better playing vinyl than my previous Superuniti which was all analogue in that mode.

Listen for yourself and trust your ears rather than worrying about techy details.

(especially the part in bold) is the most important factor.  

I uses Nova with my Rega P5 + PS Audio Phono Preamp. It sounds great.

But the same system (Rega P5 + PS Audio Phono Preamp) when I hear using my MCIntosh Tube Amps without any digital conversion, it sounds more lively.

Regards,

Sourav

cat345 posted:

It may not matter much but if you play a vinyl that was recorded and mixed in the analogue domain, you are going to spoil that continuity if it goes through A2D2A. I don't think any digital signal can be as pure as the analogue signal coming out of a microphone.

As pure as from a microphone ... hmm, if a high quality mike, and no subsequent EQ and mixing etc. But that is being deliberately being obtuse: I do understand what you mean: sound is analog, and preserving that analog nature is -or seems to be -the only way of keeping it how sound naturally is. However, this does not necessarily mean that converting to digital and back necessarily makes any audible change, but as I said earlier, the key thing is to hear and decidecfor yourself.

To me, digital with the right gear has come of age and has none of the negative sound of early digital, without the limitations of vinyl - that certainly doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate vinyl when I hear it (and, irrelevant to this, part of me does miss the physicality, and the attraction of a good LP sleeve), but surface noise in particular is harder to ignore now I’m used to not having it.

Sourav posted:

I uses Nova with my Rega P5 + PS Audio Phono Preamp. It sounds great.

But the same system (Rega P5 + PS Audio Phono Preamp) when I hear using my MCIntosh Tube Amps without any digital conversion, it sounds more lively.

Regards,

Sourav

It's a big assumption to attribute the liveliness of the MCIntosh based system to the lack of A2D conversion rather than it being powered by a completely different amp!

Glad that you are enjoying your Nova 

The thing to remember is, the Nova has a specific sonic signature, as do all Naim digital transports/players. Does the Nova sound like CD5, CDS2 or nDac, I certainly wouldn’t be very happy with a device that made my No.1 turntable sound like a CD5 or nDac. Although I’d be very happy if it made the Dual 505 I have in the loft sound like an ndac.

Innocent Bystander posted:

cat345 posted:

It may not matter much but if you play a vinyl that was recorded and mixed in the analogue domain, you are going to spoil that continuity if it goes through A2D2A. I don't think any digital signal can be as pure as the analogue signal coming out of a microphone.

As pure as from a microphone ... hmm, if a high quality mike, and no subsequent EQ and mixing etc. But that is being deliberately being obtuse: I do understand what you mean: sound is analog, and preserving that analog nature is -or seems to be -the only way of keeping it how sound naturally is. However, this does not necessarily mean that converting to digital and back necessarily makes any audible change, but as I said earlier, the key thing is to hear and decidecfor yourself.

To me, digital with the right gear has come of age and has none of the negative sound of early digital, without the limitations of vinyl - that certainly doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate vinyl when I hear it (and, irrelevant to this, part of me does miss the physicality, and the attraction of a good LP sleeve), but surface noise in particular is harder to ignore now I’m used to not having it.

It may be true that digital has come of age but let's not fool ourselves and pretend that digital can be superior to analogue. How many iterations of d/a or a/d converters are we going to see coming  in the next few years?  Will 2 million taps be enough? 

Even if I can fully appreciate music stored on a digital format, there is always this strange feeling that I may be missing the truth, like if digital is ''fake news'' compared to analogue... 

I see no point in vinyl if you are digitizing it - why not get it from a digital format to begin with?

cat345 posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

.

It may be true that digital has come of age but let's not fool ourselves and pretend that digital can be superior to analogue. How many iterations of d/a or a/d converters are we going to see coming  in the next few years?  Will 2 million taps be enough? 

Even if I can fully appreciate music stored on a digital format, there is always this strange feeling that I may be missing the truth, like if digital is ''fake news'' compared to analogue... 

So all quality turntables, arms, cartridges and phono stages sound the same do they? (they would sound remarkably similar if they were perfect reproducers...)  And do no new ones come out? 

Sadly even at this state of maturity of even turntables, amps and speakers, the components each have characters of their own, and evidently are some way from perfection, and the same is true of digital (where I define perfection as reproducing the signal exactly as on the recording, imposing no character - not that in most cases is there ever a chance to know what the soecific original actually sounds like).

As I said in my earlier post, digital to me has come of age. And quoting you, let’s not fool ourselves: vinyl does have limitations, some clearly evident ie.g. surface noise, dynamic range and limited dynamic range) and others more subtle - and these are limitations inherent in the medium, wheras digital does not have such fixed limitations (maybe this is what triggers your strange feeling that you’re missing something?).

To me (that qualification again), the best digital I have heard is better than the best vinyl I have heard. But as I also acknowledged, I recognise that a lot of people prefer the sound of vinyl, and there is room for both, and people can choose whichever they prefer. But returning to the OP’s quastion, Aside from my observation about filters, and Richard’s observation about A2D2A chain capable of being very transparent, I am sure that if Naim thought it would be negative they wouldn’t have done it, and only people who have hearing Nova in that mode can confirm whether or not it sounds good - though without an analog alternative input, any difference in sound between vinyl on Nova and vinyl on any other system may be nothing to do with the digital stage.

 Thanks all for the feedback. I think I will go for the Nova as it full-fills all my requirements. And sounds absolutely great to me. I have heard it compared to the 272 with mono amps, linked to the same loudspeakers I have and the difference is subtle (for me) when the source is Tidal.

Coming to the Vinyl, I guess I will be waiting for the Nova to be delivered (14weeks!!) and to break in. Then I will audit different turntables and RIAA and choose the combination which fits best my taste and pocket 

At least now I know that I am not crazy in doing so   

ricsimas posted:

I see no point in vinyl if you are digitizing it - why not get it from a digital format to begin with?

Presumably Naim didn’t just do “oh we must digitise analogue inputs” for no reason and to degrade quality of analogue inputs vs analogue straight through.  

Presumably they found either no loss of sound quality and increase in convenience, or an actual increase in sound quality by putting in the A-D-A stage.

PS. The only place I’ve found mention of the A-D conversion is in HiFi News and then people repeating what HiFi News wrote.  Do we have confirmation from Naim that there isn’t a bypass of the A-D-A conversion for “local” playback.  The volume control is definitely analogue and (afaik) there is no DSP going on (unlike the MuSo / MuSo Qb).

Samurai1982 posted:

 Thanks all for the feedback. I think I will go for the Nova as it full-fills all my requirements. And sounds absolutely great to me. I have heard it compared to the 272 with mono amps, linked to the same loudspeakers I have and the difference is subtle (for me) when the source is Tidal.

 

This chimes with my experience. On  a Naim factory visit I heard the Nova and then 272/250 both driving Focal Maestros (I think - certainly very large and very expensive!), so a challenging and revealing load. Yes the separates were better but the difference was not at all stunning and given the cost difference was around £3200 plus the inherent interconnect/housing expense of separates, i.e. double the Nova, it was an easy decision.

Eloise posted:

ricsimas posted:

I see no point in vinyl if you are digitizing it - why not get it from a digital format to begin with?

Presumably Naim didn’t just do “oh we must digitise analogue inputs” for no reason and to degrade quality of analogue inputs vs analogue straight through.  

Presumably they found either no loss of sound quality and increase in convenience, or an actual increase in sound quality by putting in the A-D-A stage.

PS. The only place I’ve found mention of the A-D conversion is in HiFi News and then people repeating what HiFi News wrote.  Do we have confirmation from Naim that there isn’t a bypass of the A-D-A conversion for “local” playback.  The volume control is definitely analogue and (afaik) there is no DSP going on (unlike the MuSo / MuSo Qb).

You are not considering possible limitations almost forcing certain design choices. We are talking about an integrated box with all manners of circuitry built-in, which is a compromised design to begin with. Even Naim are explicit about: "the very best solution that we can implement in a single-box, compact enclosure".

In that environment, it may be that you are losing less by digitizing rather than by dealing with enormous interference in the analogue domain *if you must use an analogue input". My point is that you don't - you can just use digital files and bypass the additional A/D stage. Unless one is doing it for the tactile part of the experience or some other reason beyond sound.

Another option is simply that Naim do not consider that part of the offering to be relevant for most customers and could do with a simpler implementation. If you think this is completely far-fetched, do note that they don't even mention the analogue input in the list of "infinite possibilities" of the Nova landing page:

You are dealing with a feature Naim cares less about than Chromecast in this device. ;-)

I have a nova and use. Rega P3 turn table, sounds bloody good to me. Mine is not the most expensive set up and I'm sure there are others on here that have systems thousand of pounds more than mine. As someone mentioned trust you ears and you can't go wrong. 14 week wait (ouch) my dealer has them in stock as we speak. Then again not sure where you are based. 

Samurai1982 posted:

Hi all,

It is in my plan to build the system around streaming and a turntable. Hence I am considering a Naim Nova.

I have however seen that the Nova is sampling its analogues inputs. What is the reason for that? Does anyone has experience in using the Nova with a turntable? Will a MC cartridge be a waste on sampled input?

 Thanks beforehand.

As for the analogue input being digitised I queried this too in another thread - someone pointed out to me that it may be to allow for multi-room setups to allow for playback on other units over the network from an analogue source.

Alley Cat posted:

 

 

 

 

As for the analogue input being digitised I queried this too in another thread - someone pointed out to me that it may be to allow for multi-room setups to allow for playback on other units over the network from an analogue source.

I was the person who suggested that, I have no inside information, it just seemed to me that as the Nova analogue inputs can be multi-roomed to other new Unitis (and in the future to other streamers), that was a genuine value-add in a new multi-room world. It could also be for pure  engineering reasons I suppose, only having to handle one domain internally allows for optimisation in the small space inside a single box player, where an analogue and didgital domain may add compromises. A white paper would be fascinating reading (hint hint). 

As I have said on several threads, I am very very happy with the sound of my Nova. I run 2 systems, NDX/82/135s/B&W804s, Nova/PMC25.23, the turntable being a Roksan TMS/Artemiz/Shiraz/Artaxerxes into the older system. The older system does sound better to me, but I have already spent a good few nights upstairs with the new system and enjoyed the music immensely, I don't feel an urge to go back down to the multi-box rig. I haven’t tried the Nova analogue in with the TMS, I’m happy with the systems as are, and rearranging for a test would be a pain, but by the quality I have seen in the UPNP playing I’d back the Naim engineers to have done an equally excellent job on the analogue side.

EBT posted:

I have a nova and use. Rega P3 turn table, sounds bloody good to me. Mine is not the most expensive set up and I'm sure there are others on here that have systems thousand of pounds more than mine. As someone mentioned trust you ears and you can't go wrong. 14 week wait (ouch) my dealer has them in stock as we speak. Then again not sure where you are based. 

I am based in Denmark.

I´ve now placed the order for my Nova. From now until May I will be reading reviews and educate myself to narrow down the number of turntables and RIAAs I wish to audit when I get my new baby. The Rega P3 seems to me one of those I wish to audit for sure, as it looks easy enough for a vinyl beginner 

I have had a Nova + Core for a few months now and am very happy with it.  For Christmas I decided to add a Turntable (having not used one for about 30 years and with strictly budget kit).  After carefully auditioning a Planar 3/Elys 2/external PS/Fono MM versus Planar 6/Ania/Fono MC, decided the Planar 6 setup was worth the extra cash.  Post install, I loaded up Stereophonics Scream Above The Sounds and was very impressed.  By  the second track I thought I'd experiment and flipped back and forth to a Tidal Masters 48kHz 24bit version of the same track and the vinyl was significantly better.  Switching to Birdy's latest album, which sounded great streamed, several of the tracks on vinyl have a "hairs on back of neck/goosebumps" quality that isn't quite there with the streamed version.  My dealer's view, that "as a rule of thumb you have to spend about twice as much on a digital source to get the same results as well setup vinyl", is an interesting one - although I would guess digital is getting better all the time.  

Rimik posted:

I have had a Nova + Core for a few months now and am very happy with it.  For Christmas I decided to add a Turntable (having not used one for about 30 years and with strictly budget kit).  After carefully auditioning a Planar 3/Elys 2/external PS/Fono MM versus Planar 6/Ania/Fono MC, decided the Planar 6 setup was worth the extra cash.  Post install, I loaded up Stereophonics Scream Above The Sounds and was very impressed.  By  the second track I thought I'd experiment and flipped back and forth to a Tidal Masters 48kHz 24bit version of the same track and the vinyl was significantly better.  Switching to Birdy's latest album, which sounded great streamed, several of the tracks on vinyl have a "hairs on back of neck/goosebumps" quality that isn't quite there with the streamed version.  My dealer's view, that "as a rule of thumb you have to spend about twice as much on a digital source to get the same results as well setup vinyl", is an interesting one - although I would guess digital is getting better all the time.  

Is that “Tidal Masters” version a downloaded standard file or streamed over the internet? And if the latter, is that the MQA version?

Many people seem to find online streaming not as good sounding as the same file from a local store (unsurprising given the process), and MQA of course needs an MQA capable renderer for the first stage unfolding and an MQA certified DAC for the second stage, and even then it is a lossy process and some people can detect the difference. Of course, both the 1st stage unfolded and  the fully compressed MQA can be played on a standard system, but with increasing deviation from how the original master will have sounded.

I did a test recently on my Atom  with the latest London Grammer album, I had 3 versions, firstly Tidal hifi, CD ripped to WAV and finally Qobuz 44/24 bit. I really couldn’t, to my ears, tell a difference between the rip and tidal, the qobuz version was a little more coherent but even still you’d be hard pushed on a blind test