Nap300 to Nap500DR with Kudos Super 20s.

I visited Gary (DB) recently and was very pleasantly surprised by the improvement in his sound, compared to my last visit about six months ago. We're talking principally about a set of three DR'd 500 amps about 18 months into service, compared to about one year into service. Gary will correct me if I'm wrong, but other than more miles on an S1 pre-amp and a full loom of Super Lumina; there were no other changes.

I've commented before that a DR'd 500 is a very different beast to it's 'straight' self, and should perhaps be called a NAP750. A Naim amp which does layering, mid-band transparency, spatial resolution and sophistication in spades - in addition to the well established PRaT and boogie factor stuff. Almost 'round earth' qualities.

Yeah I know - Burn the witch!

DB; owning three of the beauties, can very easily demonstrate the effect. The 500 costs about three times as much as the 300 for a reason - not that I take anything away from the superb DR 300.

John.

I'll post once the amp is here - hopefully next Saturday.

MangoMonkey posted:

Thanks for the replies.

Nap 500DR should at home here in a week.

All my shelves are standard size. Brain brawn split.

Thinking of getting a double sized fraim shelf to place on top of the 500.

It's either that, or a medium shelf, followed by a gap standard shelf...

Any suggestions?

 

MM - a must is to ensure the 500's very thick burndies don't touch the floor - as this can do very bad things to the bass.

I would advocate a double height upright unless you are/can put the 500 head unit on top of the brawn stack, noting the PS will need to be much lower down to suit the run of the burndies - you could do the reverse of course. This could all take some planning and use of a tape measure when you build/rebuild the stacks, not forgetting the need to ensure the speaker cables are clear of other cabling. 

Another must for me is to cable up as I go, especially with the burndies. 

I think there is also folklore that a 500 head doesn't like to be on the base level of a Fraim stack.

MangoMonkey posted:

I'll post once the amp is here - hopefully next Saturday.

 

That was the right decision imo. Enjoy...

ATB,

Mark

Darke Bear posted:

The NAP500 DR is a special Amp that actually sounds so different from the non-DR version - in a great way that I'd go for it if you can afford it, as I don't think you will ever want an upgrade; you save a lot of money in the long term going straight for the end-solution.

I like the non-DR 500 too, but the DR 500 is so much improved that it is very special. The 300DR is an excellent Amp that is also incredibly better than the non-DR version, such that if you already had that you may want to run with that and ensure you have everything else in the system, including cables, where they should be. But the NAP500DR is so much better that if you think you will eventually end-up there then just miss the intermediate stepping-stone and go straight there IMO.

DB.

DB - would be interested in your thoughts re use of a new 500DR in my active/DBL setup.  I am soon to be replacing my 300 with one.  The other amp are non DR 500’s.  Don’t have the funds to upgrade these at the moment. So where is the DR best placed - the tweeter?  That is usually the perceived wisdom - although I have run contrary to that in the past (300 was on the mid).  

Will also need to undo the adjustments made to the SNAXO as well.  Assuming that the 500DR would have the same settings as the 500’s?

Would welcome your thoughts.

Gavin

The 500 is bridged output and has about 1db more gain so any stage Active needs tweaking if mixing with 300 Amps. The DR 500 has the same gain so should not need any Snaxo gain tweaks if it is swapping for the non-DR 500, but definitely will for the 300.

I'd try the DR 500 in all three positions for the DBL, as it has something to offer in each over the 500 and definitely over the non-DR 300.

As you say the wisdom view is the tweeter but I's venture it will do more for the mid or bass in that order. For the mid it is more 'lush' and detailed and will do good duties on vocals. On bass is is more solid and definite and the DBL may react rather well to that extra control and the reduction in coloration be more worthwhile.

But the non-DR 500 is rather good as bass so you may find the on the mid better. On the tweeter is where Naim say - from my previous wonky 300-500 tests with 3-way Briks I found it was more HiFi PRat better with the tweeter but better for me with 500 on the bass; but with that system in the end I opted for all 300 as I values the seamless presentation, as wherever the 500 went it shines too much.

The DR 500 has many of the qualities the non-DR 300 has so may work better in a different mix of amps.

DB.

Thanks for the thoughts.  I did wonder if a lower noise floor would have as much impact on high frequency signal as it might lower down.  Perhaps I start with the mid and then experiment from there.  

If I can guess the best location from the outset, it will help with the speaker cable routing.  I also can’t help myself in wanting to know the units are stacked in the ‘right’ order...

MangoMonkey posted:

Thanks for the replies.

Nap 500DR should at home here in a week.

All my shelves are standard size. Brain brawn split.

Thinking of getting a double sized fraim shelf to place on top of the 500.

It's either that, or a medium shelf, followed by a gap standard shelf...

Any suggestions?

 

Please report if the 500DR will cause the 300 to sound inadequate on the Harbeth SHL5 Plus after you have had a good listen. Thanks. 

that's not how it works...

The 500 hardly makes the 300 sound broken, but just is better... The return currents from the speaker don't go back into system earth so makes for a much cleaner and powerful grip on the speaker as you have 2 amps (effectively a NAP 500 is 2 NAP 300) controlling the speaker cones.

Worth every penny.

Jaw dropping. Did not feel this way with any other component - not the NDS, not even the 552.

Bundle of contradictory emotions -

All at the same time, you relax into the music, and find the music exciting.

Toe tapping. 

You can hear deep into the music If you so choose. Or ignore the sounds, and just let the music carry you - enjoy the whole.

Saying on the forums several years ago - back then, George was active, as was JulianH and this other guy who made snarky jokes and got banned, and totemphile too - nait 5i-2 or 552/500. The steps in the middle not worth it. Kinda true. Good to make the journey up though.

Regret not doing this earlier. Just now seeing what the 552 was capable of.

[@mention:1566878603952052]

This system, surprisingly reminds me most of one of the first systems I had - the nait XS, with the cd5xs and the rega rs5.

Too bad the cd5xs is dead. The nd5xs wasn't nearly as good. The cd5xs/naitxs/flatcapXS was one helluva system to beat. Really had to go up all the way to match it - and obviously get a lot more.

Lot of steps in the middle boring in comparison...

 Unfortunately, speakers are the bottleneck now. But that can wait. Several years.

MangoMonkey posted:

[@mention:1566878603952052]

This system, surprisingly reminds me most of one of the first systems I had - the nait XS, with the cd5xs and the rega rs5.

Too bad the cd5xs is dead. The nd5xs wasn't nearly as good. The cd5xs/naitxs/flatcapXS was one helluva system to beat. Really had to go up all the way to match it - and obviously get a lot more.

Thanks, that's good to hear!

Enjoy your set.

Glad you like the 500 DR Mango.

MangoMonkey posted:

 

 

Regret not doing this earlier. Just now seeing what the 552 was capable of.

 

 

 

Yes indeed that's what I thought too - the 552 and 500 really pair well together 

Yeah, but you have no idea. I'm listening to music - and this touches the soul like no other system. 

I've heard 552/500 many times, it is very special.

Still though, I'm a believer in source first

the ND555 streamer should be something very special for those who own 500 series systems

Lol. We will see.

I want to write some more - but it's more about my personal experience with the naim 552/500 sound. More my perception than what anyone may hear into it. And the journey.

I had a wierd smile on my face the last few days. Wierd enough that my wife asked me if i was thinking of 'someone else'.

I had to convince her it was just the new amp. :-)

Wierdly enough, with the 500 in place, I finally feel like I've come home. This was the sound I was craving all along, but just didn't know it.

In some ways I've come full circle to what I consider the naim sound - the nait XS and the rega rs5. Super fast. No other amp between the nait xs and the 552/500 delivers the same speed. All the various steps 202/200 282/250, 252/300 etc. make certain compromises, this is the place where it all comes together.

If you could pick one aspect, in my case, speed, and you're fine with other compromises, you could stop anywhere. In my case, it looks like the nait xs, or even the 202/200 would have been the best place to have stopped for a long time. For others, it might be elsewhere - depending on what it you want. 

speed comes from other factors too, the source, the interconnects, the speakers.

Don't try Superlumina at home unless you're ready to pay for it

The DIN/DIN interconnect for me is the best of the SL cables.

But however I agree with your views, Nait XS and 202/200 are very fine places to stop and enjoy the Naim sound.

Hi Mango,

congrats! Please allow me a question- what is your spending ratio btw source vs amps vs speaker now? Thanks and enjoy the black side of music????

MangoMonkey posted:

In some ways I've come full circle to what I consider the naim sound - the nait XS and the rega rs5. Super fast. No other amp between the nait xs and the 552/500 delivers the same speed.

If you could pick one aspect, in my case, speed, and you're fine with other compromises, you could stop anywhere. In my case, it looks like the nait xs, or even the 202/200 would have been the best place to have stopped

Strong words from you Mango, knowing you had the SN2 along your journey. I had for several years a FCXS'd Nait XS and to compare it for speed to even to a bare SN2 is inquisitive to me. To my ears, the SN2 is light years ahead of the Nait XS for speed and accuracy. That said, and in retrospect, I probably got greater pure musical enjoyment from my XS system. Speed can get overbearing, even fatiguing, while over-exposing the marginal recordings. Maybe it's more a matter of semantics, ears, expectations, or the system/room interactions than how each of us use the term 'speed'?

Congrats on your 500 and I truly hope you've arrived!

MangoMonkey posted:

In some ways I've come full circle to what I consider the naim sound - the nait XS and the rega rs5. Super fast. No other amp between the nait xs and the 552/500 delivers the same speed. All the various steps 202/200 282/250, 252/300 etc. make certain compromises, this is the place where it all comes together.

Am I right that the Nac 72 still has a special place with you and therefore you leave it out of this compromised list?

I seem to remember that you are / were a big fan of the Nac 72 ...

MangoMonkey posted:

I had a wierd smile on my face the last few days. Wierd enough that my wife asked me if i was thinking of 'someone else'.

I had to convince her it was just the new amp. :-)

Funny because some while ago I was talking with a quite promzinent hi-fi journalist who was adamant that the 500 killed the timing.    I’m with you Mango - I think it’s an amazing amp.   

Regards,

Lindsay

T38.45 posted:

Hi Mango,

congrats! Please allow me a question- what is your spending ratio btw source vs amps vs speaker now? Thanks and enjoy the black side of music????

Retail?

Source: amplification:speakers -

24:70:8

thanks! funny ratio- but who cares if you have fun;-)

Looks okay to me

My source - amp - speakers retail price % stat is presently  42 : 55 : 3 

On a few occasions i've listened to LP12 - 552/500 - Kudos S20 and really like what i heard  : )

Debs