I know they say source first but how about room acoustics?

Hi Popeye. My music room is very bare and suffers from a real lack of low end. I’ve just bought some GIK tri trap bass traps which I fitted in the corners behind the speakers. The impact these had on the sound was very surprising and I now have more bass, which is tighter too. Before I buy any more boxes I’ll be getting some panels for the first reflection points and some bass traps for the rear wall. GIK were extremely helpful and I’d highly recommend them. My bare 272 into 250DR has never sounded so good! 

Indeed Popeye, It amazes me how much research people will put into which box to buy, what cable will sound better and yet how little thought is put into the room acoustics. 

I have yet to get around to using the REW program suggested by one of the forumites, but if my new home is anything like my last, such analysis can tell you a lot about why we hear what we do. Quite what you then do about it is another matter of course, but at lease I might be armed with the true nature of the challenge. Our Firm employs acoustic engineers and one day I would like to be able to talk through the finer points of home acoustics, the science!      

Who says source first?

Finkfan posted:

Hi Popeye. My music room is very bare and suffers from a real lack of low end. I’ve just bought some GIK tri trap bass traps which I fitted in the corners behind the speakers. The impact these had on the sound was very surprising and I now have more bass, which is tighter too. Before I buy any more boxes I’ll be getting some panels for the first reflection points and some bass traps for the rear wall. GIK were extremely helpful and I’d highly recommend them. My bare 272 into 250DR has never sounded so good! 

I had the opportunity to listen to Finkfan’s set up a couple of days ago, and completely agree it’s sounding superb. The Bass traps are a revelation.

I’m in the process of experimenting with some GIK panels myself, my conclusion so far is they work extremely well, fortunately I have a dedicated listening room but no doubt if it was the living room I don’t think SWMBO would be suitably impressed with having accoustic panels strategically placed.

So in answer to your question I think it’s equally important as any other aspect of the HiFi journey, ie source first, dedicated supply, ect ect ect

The room is generally the most neglected part of the system - yet depending on the room it can have a huge effect on the sound: Some rooms can seriously muddy the sound, make bass become one note, lose the clarity of the mids, etc. Others have minimal problems due to the luck of how size, construction, furnishings and speaker/listening positions interrelate

Unfortunately room treatment is often not very domestically acceptable, at least if there are significant problems to correct.

The answer to the question depends on the room, and on the speakers, the amp and the source. The best source may be wasted in a bad room - as can the best speakers - so really the room should be considered as part of the system from the start, and at least its contribution and any problems assessed. And room includes its layout, including speaker and listening positions.

Innocent Bystander posted:

The room is generally the most neglected part of the system - yet depending on the room it can have a huge effect on the sound: Some rooms can seriously muddy the sound, make bass become one note, lose the clarity of the mids, etc. Others have minimal problems due to the luck of how size, construction, furnishings and speaker/listening positions interrelate

Unfortunately room treatment is often not very domestically acceptable, at least if there are significant problems to correct.

 

I absolutely agree - trouble is there isn't much you can do in a room apart from equipment positioning without attempting to alter the acoustics.

Another huge factor I've noticed over the years is solid vs suspended floors, the latter sometimes adding negative effects and colouration.  There are other odd things - for example I tried some lovely Pro-Ac speakers before getting SBLs - problem was their bass was much deeper and I got reverberations in radiators in another room!

I suspect that many a home dem has been wrongly judged due to the room acoustics.

Finkfan posted:

Hi Popeye. My music room is very bare and suffers from a real lack of low end. I’ve just bought some GIK tri trap bass traps which I fitted in the corners behind the speakers. The impact these had on the sound was very surprising and I now have more bass, which is tighter too. Before I buy any more boxes I’ll be getting some panels for the first reflection points and some bass traps for the rear wall. GIK were extremely helpful and I’d highly recommend them. My bare 272 into 250DR has never sounded so good! 

I would second that I used the Gik panels after had hard floor put down in the room which really upset my system sound had Gik do 2 picture panels for first reflection points then 4 of their impression slim panels on rear wall which sorted it

really pleased also swmbo was happy as they look like canvas photo pictures  

There's a big BUT here. There's no point trying to strong-arm room acoustics with all sorts of treatments when the basic system set-up and positioning is flawed. If your hi-fi set-up is done according to décor and other furniture, you'll be very lucky indeed if you manage to extract anything like your system's full potential.  Having speakers too close to walls will unbalance frequencies and cause early reflections which will destroy soundstage and image focus.  Generally distance to rear walls affects bass, to side walls midrange and toe-in will affect treble balance.

Unbalanced rooms, where one speaker is next to a window or wall and the other open, as often happens in an L shaped room for example is a sonic killer.  Placing speakers in corners can also have some err interesting effects, while placing equipment into corners will ensure that it is maximally resonated by concentrated bass frequencies.

The first consideration should be buying equipment that matches your room. For example buying rear ported loudspeakers automatically infers speaker 'freedom of movement' to avoid bass resonances.  If you must place your speakers close to walls, avoid rear ports, which will cause untold difficulties with bass frequencies.

Another no-no which will adversely affect frequency response but which is often seen in pictures of people's installations is placing turntables on top of large, heavy structures like cabinets and sideboards, The sound from such systems will tend to be bloated, boomy, dull and slow.

Finally, sitting off centre will also have undesirable consequences...the closer you sit to your speakers, the greater the effect of an imbalance. Sound pressure levels drop by 50% (-6dB) with every doubling of distance from the source, so if you sit  3 meters from 1 speaker and 4 or more from the other, you're going to need to adjust the balance to restore equal levels. Of course there's nothing you can do to correct phase, which will be off.

Another major mistake is buying too much speaker for the room. If you're going to use large, multi-way speakers, you've got to sit a fair way back in order for the sound from each individual driver to integrate into a sonic whole.

So, in my opinion, before we get to adjusting room acoustics, buying a system that's well matched to the listening environment is usually my first priority.

I too have found the room when dealing with better quality gear is everything. But even If you have a cheap Bluetooth speaker listen to it and then listen  to it in front of the open end of an empty bucket laid on its side. Same principle on a large scale. 

The best room I’ve ever heard - giving the best sound I’ve ever heard from any hifi system, ever (talking overall sound, not how detailed it might be etc) - was no room at all...

It was in the garden - effectively removing room/speaker interaction, standing waves, major reflections etc.

System itself comprised IMF Ref Standard Prof Monitor speakers - a large transmission line design - fed by Shearne Audio Phase 7 CD player or Thorens TD150 in custom plinth/ Rega RB300 arm and an AT mc cartridge, through Musical Fidelity The Preamp 2 and Musical Fidelity P170 power amp, and about 40-50m of mixed, partly nondescript cable (2.5-6mm2).

Speakers placed on crates to raise a foot or so, on the front edge of a patio at the rear of the garden, facing towards the house, about 5m apart. Distance from speakers to house rear wall 19.5m. Garden width between high thick hedges about 7.5m. Thick high hedge at back of garden 2.5m behind speakers. Main 'listening' area about 8-11m from speakers (and no evident ‘sweet spot’). Area between speakers and listening area flower/veg beds and lawn, listening area lawn. (Google map is great for retrospectively measuring - I now know rather than estimate!)

The music sounded stunningly real, clear, sharply focused but with huge soundstage, with really deep, smooth detailed and well controlled bass: simply out of this world.

My system has moved on, with significant improvement in some qualities, but that sound remains my yardstick for music reproduction, though I know It is unlikely ever to be achievable indoors. But I plan to incorporate room treatment when next I move home.

Blackmorec posted:

Unbalanced rooms, where one speaker is next to a window or wall and the other open, as often happens in an L shaped room for example is a sonic killer. 

 

Alas, this describes my case very accurately (unfortunately...).  What are the consequences Blackmorec and any suggestions (assuming the obvious - repositioning- is out of the question).... ?

How aesthetically acceptable room treatment appears is largely dependant of the amount you are prepared to spend and your taste in room décor.

Even bass traps can be aesthetically pleasing - just convert large (amphora sized) jars into Helmholtz resonant absorbers, or disguise them as cupboards;  diffusers and HF absorbers can be covered with artwork.

I agree that the room is the most often underestimated component of an audio system (and yes you should consider it to be component in the system).

My theory is that anyone with a difficult room needs to challenge source first. You need to find speakers that work with the room, an amp that will drive said speakers then the best source you can afford. I exaggerate but you know what I mean

My room is made up of concrete and glass which most would consider a disaster.  I did a modest treatment to my room using 4 Vicoustic Wave Wood panels and 2 bass traps.  The panels help diffuse and absorb the sound making it more focused.  I'm a big believer in treatments now, but not at the expense of proper attention to set-up: dedicated circuit, dedicated grounding, Fraim, Powerlines, no switch-mode supplies.  I've also learned over the years the importance of quality speaker cable soldering. If your system is hard or shouty get your speaker cable redone by an expert. 

I also found that good isolation under speakers, the equipment rack and my turntable (in a room with a hard wooden floor) considerably tightened bass and removed the 'bloom' which I previously had. I used a combination of Isoacoustics Gaia, Netpoint SSC and Soundcare Superspikes. There are many others too including Townshend (apologies moderator if mentioning brands is inappropriate - I have offered a fair spectrum and I'm not attempting to advertise any one specifically!).

Chris Bell posted:

  I'm a big believer in treatments now, but not at the expense of proper attention to set-up: dedicated circuit, dedicated grounding, Fraim, Powerlines, no switch-mode supplies.  I've also learned over the years the importance of quality speaker cable soldering. If your system is hard or shouty get your speaker cable redone by an expert. 

 

I suspect that the room will often make more difference to the sound than some other refinements, so may be worth tackling early on - following which other changes afterwards are free to shine through more clearly.

Throw your rule book that says " source first" out of the window.

start thinking like the ...

Vitruvian man.

in that the human form should provide the correct principles of proportion. 

Holistic view of problems should prevail as the least distance covered.

As the adaptation of the room acoustics is mostly relatively affordable and had a huge impact it’s wise to consider it. However always look at balance. Room adjustments done early in the journey might need to be adjusted when you upgrade your electronics. Also always consider the quality of your electrical supply as it also can be mostly improved at reasonable costs.

TOBYJUG posted:

Holistic view of problems should prevail as the least distance covered.

source->headphones->head ?  

whsturm posted:

I also found that good isolation under speakers, the equipment rack and my turntable (in a room with a hard wooden floor) considerably tightened bass and removed the 'bloom' which I previously had. I used a combination of Isoacoustics Gaia, Netpoint SSC and Soundcare Superspikes. There are many others too including Townshend (apologies moderator if mentioning brands is inappropriate - I have offered a fair spectrum and I'm not attempting to advertise any one specifically!).

Funny you mention the Isoacoustics GAIAs.i Just received my GAIA 111s yesterday,and will be installing them under my Dynaudio XD 600s this weekend.I am hoping that they deliver as promised,a fairly cheap tweak,all things considered.I also use Viscoustics wavewood panels in my room(9),and I have their diffuser panels(6),and a bunch of their flexiwall absorbers placed behind my speakers,and at first reflection points.These panels really helped my room,which has hardwood floors,my next step is going to be a nice thick throw rug.The diffusers are all on the rear wall,behind my listening chair.

Huge posted:

I agree that the room is the most often underestimated component of an audio system (and yes you should consider it to be component in the system).

Me too. I consider room interaction to be the ultimate definer of a system's replay abilities. So treat your room well. Then get your gear properly racked. Then find speakers that best suit these treatments. From there you're in an objective position to evaluate changes in boxes. The hypothetical best source is a loss if you've neglected the aforementioned fundamental considerations.

Let's put this "source first" hypocrisy to bed, or better yet, in a grave.

No quarter posted:

whsturm posted:

I also found that good isolation under speakers, the equipment rack and my turntable (in a room with a hard wooden floor) considerably tightened bass and removed the 'bloom' which I previously had. I used a combination of Isoacoustics Gaia, Netpoint SSC and Soundcare Superspikes. There are many others too including Townshend (apologies moderator if mentioning brands is inappropriate - I have offered a fair spectrum and I'm not attempting to advertise any one specifically!).

Funny you mention the Isoacoustics GAIAs.i Just received my GAIA 111s yesterday,and will be installing them under my Dynaudio XD 600s this weekend.I am hoping that they deliver as promised,a fairly cheap tweak,all things considered.I also use Viscoustics wavewood panels in my room(9),and I have their diffuser panels(6),and a bunch of their flexiwall absorbers placed behind my speakers,and at first reflection points.These panels really helped my room,which has hardwood floors,my next step is going to be a nice thick throw rug.The diffusers are all on the rear wall,behind my listening chair.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure you know this but the GAIAs are directional and need the logo either facing forward or backwards. They have interesting 'puck' bottoms that stick to my wooden floors adding a bit of motion stability against being slid by accident which is useful. I found that they tightened the bass so effectively that I needed to move my speaker position to rebalance the sound in light of room acoustics (but, irrespective, the bass bloom has disappeared).  One of my better upgrades I believe.

To answer the OP, I would say the system first followed by the room. To some extent your brain can iron peaks ands troughs in parts of the frequency domain.. where I find treatment really worked was to reduce smearing in the upper mid and treble..as a result a whole load of clarity and detail came into the music. In my room a I have a bass bin (to tame an alcove ) and two acoustic absorbing panels behind my speakers. We have thick curtains, plenty soft furnishings and rug and woolen fitted carpet, as well as pictures on walls. The room is irregularly shaped which also seems to help.

its funny we actually need reflections to some extent to listen and interpret sound... some find an anechoic chamber a very disconcerting experience ... it’s not at all natural..

Having recently upgraded my speakers, I have ventured into the world of room treatment as my next upgrade. Previously being a bit sceptical, I sent some room measurements (using REW) to GIK. On their advice, I started with 4x soffit bass traps for the front wall corners. The difference was significant in so much that having already blown my original budget, I invested in further soffit traps to cover some of  the ceiling/wall corners, and monster traps (as art panels with inbuilt diffusion) for the rear wall and side wall reflection points. Results are far beyond what I could have imagined, with greater depth, incredible bass control, clarity, tightness of the music etc etc. Expensive, yes, but no more than some interconnect cable upgrades etc, yet I would say the room treatment has been one of my most significant upgrades, and best in terms of value for money.

In hindsight, I should have done this much earlier in my hifi  journey. I would also say speaker positioning is also critical here. In combination with the room treatment, the results are astonishing and I now understand the phrase “going from hearing hifi” to “hearing music”. Even my wife, who has no interest in hifi, acknowledges there is a big difference (now that is a revelation itself)