Hicap DR vs Supercap DR on NAC 282

Posted by: ryder. on 27 January 2018

I have read about the comparison between the Hicap DR vs (2 x Hicap DR) vs Supercap DR on the NAC282 but most of the impressions are rather brief. The most comprehensive writeup I have found so far is detailed in the link below by Megge but the thread is locked.

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...nd-soundstage?page=2

Alright, my dealer has been at my place yesterday and I asked him to bring along the agreed 250DR and SupercapDR but also asked him to bring another HicapDR in order to take a stepped approach starting with 250DR all the way up to SCDR.

So first we hooked up the 250DR on my NDX/282/HCDR which initially didn’t convince me at the dealer’s place. It was bloated and too much for that room with those Neat XLS speakers at that time. So I was bit nervous what was going to happen here. Now once hooked up it was a complete revelation for my ears. The soundstage expanded greatly when listening to the Dark Knight and Pirates of the Caribbean soundtracks. I heard plenty of that bass reminding me of my PSBs but its control and detail was exceptional. No sign of muddiness or bloated soundstage. Also the “thinness” I was initially complaining about was gone. Everything sat right in its place and put a big smile on my face. The only thing that I noticed was that instruments (listened to “Concerning Hobbits”) still had some thinness like missing some body around to sound more present in the whole context of the song. Highs were also a bit on the bright side, but nothing tragic at all I’d say.

So next was the Hicap DR in line to get connected in addition to my already existing one. Also the 250DR was still connected in order to listen to the upgrade progression while building the systems. My dealer said he has like 5 out 10 customers where there is no improvement with 2 HCDRs at all whereas with some others they do hear some step-up in their room/speaker/system context. So what did the second HCDR do? It actually did some great step-up in my place. These highs which were a bit on the bright side and the thinness of instruments were gone. Things now placed themselves seamless into the musical overall picture of the tracks I heard and did not fall short of presence anymore. Also the soundstage became deeper by a small margin and low frequencies had better definition/contour. So it seems that the separation of power to the individual channels of the 282 did do some magic and I was actually very glad to hear this and glad that I asked my dealer short-term to bring a second HCDR along.

Now at last there was the SupercapDR. In exchange of the two HCDRs the improvement was immediate. Soundstage widened by a big margin into all directions. Low frequency control as well as its details got pronounced better and more solid. Instruments have been pulled wider (width and depth) apart in space if I may say so which made locating them on stage easier. An even bigger step forward were mids’ and highs’ details and transparency as well as timing. Especially the timing was second to none compared to the setup with both HCDRs. Now while listening to the SCDR in my system I felt that even though everything was a big leap forward the musical enjoyment and overall musical picture that draws me in did lack a bit to my ears due to (probably) the greater transparency and details the SCDR offered. So I had the fear that longer listening sessions would get my ears tired but that’s only an assumption I could make at that time. In terms of additional financial layout for the SCDR I also thought that it was not worth it for now unless I’d go up the ladder later, and this is not in near sight atm.

So in the end I of course opted for the most obvious and took the 250DR which REALLY, REALLY made my speakers sing. It was the best and most significant upgrade from all combinations mentioned before. However and this was the least expected from my side I also bought the second HicapDR because it placed the music to another level for me in the whole context of my room/speakers/system. My dealer made me an overall offer which I could not resist (including the return of my 202/200) which would have never been possible if I’d have bought the amp and PS separately.

By all means the SCDR is an amazing performer and shows what the 282 may be capable of. However, and this is to my ears only and mentioned this a couple of posts before, a 282/SCDR would need a better source (at least NDX+XPSDR) and a 300DR to bring back that musical enjoyment for me which I shortly heard in my dealer’s demo some time ago. But that would be 6 full width boxes vs my 3 and 2 HCDRs (which comfortably reside on top of each other on another small shelf), and not to speak of the additional financial stretch. Also the temptation to go for a 252 when a SCDR is already at home would at least for me be hard to resist at some point of time. In any case right now I have that very good feeling that this system/speaker combo (NDX/282/HCDR x2/250DR/PMC fact.8) may be all I want for a very long time J

I have tried connecting both outputs of the NAC282 but not with a Supercap DR. My impressions are similar to Megge's when both outputs of the 282 are connected with the Hicap DR. The treble sounds a bit softer and the slight thinness is gone with both outputs connected. The bass also has better definition. The treble especially piano sounds more lively with a single Hicap DR connected although the notes may sound a little bright, sharp or piercing.

To those who have compared the Supercap DR to the Hicap DR on the NAC 282, questions as follows:-

1. How does the treble compare between the Supercap DR, 2 x Hicap DR and 1 x Hicap DR, specifically the tone of the piano. The highs with two (2) Hicap DR are smoother and less shouty than a single Hicap DR. How does it sound with the Supercap DR. Does piano sound more like a single Hicap DR (brighter and more vibrant), or two Hicap DR (smoother and slightly dull, lacking in a bit of sparkle).

2. Does the Supercap DR further improve on the bass definition of 2 x Hicap DR.

3. Does the Supercap DR make the NAC 282 sound larger than life than 2 x Hicap DR (or 1 x Hicap DR).

4. Basically, does anyone else share the same experience as Megge.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by The Strat (Fender)

Ryder - I’ve read much about this and started my own thread. My conclusion is that an extended home demo is the only way.

Regards,

Lindsay

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by yeti42

Your context will be unique, in fact having looked at your profile it’s further from the norm here than most so you will have to try for yourself.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by cat345

Ryder,

IMO, it is quite difficult to form an opinion when doing these tests because it implies that you are constantly swapping snaic cables and any cable need to rest and be left unmoved for a few days to show it's full potential.

Have you considered this when comparing different PS's ?

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by ryder.

Lindsay, I agree that an extended home demo is the only way, and I am seeking those experiences here on this forum.

There isn't any need to look at my profile as I am asking on people's experiences on the Hicap DR, 2 x Hicap DR and Supercap DR on the NAC 282.

Cat345 - no I haven't considered giving the cables few days of rest after swapping the power supplies although that did happen. My serious comparisons are usually swapping back and forth between one and two outputs, 20-30 minutes each session usually with the same track. Both cases long and short term memory give almost comparable/consistent results.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by Alan Willby

Ryder

I have done the HC - HC*2 - SCDR (note the HC's were NOT DR models) on my 282 and my ears were happy that there were improvements at both upgrade stages. Not that I have ever done it - but you might want to do the reverse as what is lost may be more obvious than what is gained. I agree with CAT345 that you should give any set up a bit of time - say a week - before making the change. To me the SCDR was a no brainer in terms of dynamics - and I already had a 252 itch that I knew no amount of scratching would cure so I wanted to be able to take advantage of any ex-dem deals or a 'previously cherished' one if it came up (which it did after about 9 months - heaven!).

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by ryder.

Thanks Alan. Although the Hicap is not a DR, it was still useful. The Supercap DR should be a significant improvement over 2 x Hicap2 as the Hicap2 was said to be not very good when compared to the Hicap DR.

I was just wondering how big will the improvement be when going from 2 x Hicap DR to the Supercap DR. Will the listener need to strain his ears to hear a difference? Or the difference will be immediately noticeable (and significantly positive)

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by ryder.

Based on my experience, the bass of the 282 will be more defined and controlled with two outputs connected. I'm just curious on the other aspects of the sound. From various experiences here on this forum, I was made to understand that the Supercap DR will be much more dynamic than the Hicap DR either single or dual outputs connected. That would suggest a larger than life presentation as what Megge has described above. However, i was particularly concerned on the treble of the SupercapDR. Especially the tone of the piano. Will piano sound the same with Supercap DR or Hicap DR 1 or 2 outputs connected. Will piano have the same energy or will it sound slightly smoother or warmer (less sparkle or brightness) with the Supercap DR. The raw plucking of strings such as guitars, if the Supercap DR is smoother sounding than the Hicap DR, will this raw energy or leading edge that some may associate as brightness get "smoothened" a little.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by Adam Zielinski

I eventually settled on my new 282 with a single Hi-Cap. And that is my 2nd 282

I disliked the previous one (used with a SuperCap DR) so much that I actually sold it and bought a 252 instead. Which I love.

Being an idiot, I then bought a new 282 which I love with my HiCap DR

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by analogmusic

So Adam, are you saying 282 and SCDR don't pair well?

or that your current 282 is better than the first one?

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by MDS

I haven't done the 282/HCDR v 282SCDR direct comparison, but when I originally demo'ed the 282 with a view to purchase I first listened to the 282/HC into 250.2, which I liked, and then tried 282/SC/250.2. It must have taken me all of 10 seconds to conclude that the latter combination was a huge step up in performance and that I had to have a SC. The soundstage was very much bigger with the SC. I later DR'ed my SC and think both the 282/SC and 282/SCDR combinations represent terrific VFM.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by wenger2015

All the reviews I’ve read strongly suggest that the SCdr is a significant step up on the HCdr.

which certainly agrees with comments from MDS.

What I would say is I’m sure the room acoustics, source, cables, all make an impact and combine together to either make the SCdr sing or not...

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by nigelb

I have only compared a tired HiCap (non-DR) to a SuperCapDR on my 282 (now 252). Night and day! Well that is a bit of an exaggeration and I have not compared to a HiCapDR. All I know is I really liked a SuperCapDR powering my 282.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by cat345

The 282 use only 4 of the 14 outputs available from the SCDR so if it sound any better than the 4 outputs of 2xHCDR what would be the reason for this? Does it have something to do with the loss of star grounding when using 2 PSs or is it because of the larger transfo?

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by joe9407

good question, CAT345 -- aren't the power supplies in the Supercap and the Hicap the same, there's just more of them in the SC?

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by nigelb

The SuperCapDR is over 3 times the price of the HiCapDR (new) and that excludes the interconnect, so there must be a significant difference between the two in terms of pure hardware. I realise that on the 282 one will not use the full capabilities of the SuperCapDR but surely a simple demo would cut through all the doubt.

There comes a point at which the discussion over which is best VFM on a 282 becomes superfluous and actually hearing the things on a 282 trumps all speculation. Might we have reached that point?

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by cat345

nigelb posted:
The SuperCapDR is over 3 times the price of the HiCapDR (new) and that excludes the interconnect, so there must be a significant difference between the two in terms of pure hardware. I realise that on the 282 one will not use the full capabilities of the SuperCapDR but surely a simple demo would cut through all the doubt.
There comes a point at which the discussion over which is best VFM on a 282 becomes superfluous and actually hearing the things on a 282 trumps all speculation. Might we have reached that point?

The SuperCapDR has 5 more regulator boards than 2 HCDR so that would explain the price difference, however I am not convinced SCDR boards are of a tighter quality control but I may be wrong.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by Adam Zielinski

analogmusic posted:
So Adam, are you saying 282 and SCDR don't pair well?
or that your current 282 is better than the first one?

Re 1: no

Re 2: no

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by nigelb

cat345 posted:
nigelb posted:
The SuperCapDR is over 3 times the price of the HiCapDR (new) and that excludes the interconnect, so there must be a significant difference between the two in terms of pure hardware. I realise that on the 282 one will not use the full capabilities of the SuperCapDR but surely a simple demo would cut through all the doubt.
There comes a point at which the discussion over which is best VFM on a 282 becomes superfluous and actually hearing the things on a 282 trumps all speculation. Might we have reached that point?
The SuperCapDR has 5 more regulator boards than 2 HCDR so that would explain the price difference, however I am not convinced SCDR boards are of a tighter quality control but I may be wrong.

Only one way to find out if the quantity (and tolerance) of the regulator boards makes a worthwhile difference to SQ, assuming this is indeed the critical factor.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by ryder.

Adam Zielinski posted:
I eventually settled on my new 282 with a single Hi-Cap. And that is my 2nd 282
I disliked the previous one (used with a SuperCap DR) so much that I actually sold it and bought a 252 instead. Which I love.
Being an idiot, I then bought a new 282 which I love with my HiCap DR

I read your post several times but still couldn't get it. Would appreciate if you can expand on the reason(s) you sold the first 282/Supercap DR and why you hated it so much.

And the reason you bought the 2nd 282 with a Hicap DR since you hated the first one with the Supercap DR.

Lastly, which is the most important, the differences between the first 282/Supercap DR and the second 282/Hicap DR since you mentioned you loved the latter and hated the former. Would appreciate if you can clear things up as your impressions don't seem to coincide with majority who have tried. Thanks.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by ryder.

nigelb posted:
I have only compared a tired HiCap (non-DR) to a SuperCapDR on my 282 (now 252). Night and day! Well that is a bit of an exaggeration and I have not compared to a HiCapDR. All I know is I really liked a SuperCapDR powering my 282.

It is night and day because you have skipped the interim 2 x Hicap, compounded by the non -DR of the Hicap. Between one and two Hicaps there is a difference and to me it is somewhere between night and day and negligible.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by ryder.

cat345 posted:
The 282 use only 4 of the 14 outputs available from the SCDR so if it sound any better than the 4 outputs of 2xHCDR what would be the reason for this? Does it have something to do with the loss of star grounding when using 2 PSs or is it because of the larger transfo?

I have asked this question before. Naim didn't provide any insight on this but James N's response on another thread sometime last year was quite useful:-

You can supply 4 rails to the 282 using 2 Hicaps but the benefits gained by the extra 2 rails are offset as the grounding scheme becomes slightly degraded compared to a single Hicap / Supercap arrangement.

* yes, i guess you noticed the Supercap is under-utilised when used with the 282. That is one of the main reasons i hesitate to go with the Supercap DR apart from the price(I am not moving from the 282). It is costlier than the main components ie. the preamp or power amp.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by cat345

ryder. posted:
cat345 posted:
The 282 use only 4 of the 14 outputs available from the SCDR so if it sound any better than the 4 outputs of 2xHCDR what would be the reason for this? Does it have something to do with the loss of star grounding when using 2 PSs or is it because of the larger transfo?
I have asked this question before. Naim didn't provide any insight on this but James N's response on another thread sometime last year was quite useful:-
You can supply 4 rails to the 282 using 2 Hicaps but the benefits gained by the extra 2 rails are offset as the grounding scheme becomes slightly degraded compared to a single Hicap / Supercap arrangement.
* yes, i guess you noticed the Supercap is under-utilised when used with the 282. That is one of the main reasons i hesitate to go with the Supercap DR apart from the price(I am not moving from the 282). It is costlier than the main components ie. the preamp or power amp.

The SCDR would reduce box count and use one less power cable but it makes an expensive move particularly if you have no intention to go for a 252 thereafter. In an ideal situation, one could enjoy a 282/HCDR over and over again until a nice 552 show up at an irresistible price.

Posted on: 27 January 2018 by ryder.

That’s it. I have been listening to the 282/Hicap DR for a day and reached a rather definitive conclusion after going back to two outputs connected. From my previous long and short term comparisons which pretty much coincide with the experience from the particular member above (Megge), the summary is as detailed below.

Note that my impressions are only with A and B (it does not necessarily need to be Hicap DR but the older Hicap 2 or Hicap 1).

A) NAC 282 + Hicap DR

An overall lighter presentation with a brighter tone. Sound is a little flat and 2-dimensional if compared to B.

Details in the background sound slightly smeared with less definition than B. Bass shows slightly less definition although still sounding tight and taut.

B) NAC 282 + (2 X Hicap DR)

An overall heavier, warmer and meatier presentation when compared to A due to the added body. Apart from a slight reduction in brightness, there is added weight to the sound. Slightly more definition and control across the frequency spectrum than A which eliminate the smearing of notes. A slightly punchier sound (improved macrodynamics) which made A sound a little flat in comparison.

A slight improvement in soundstage which gives a 3-dimensional feel. There is more space between instruments.

The tone of instruments especially piano sounds more realistic with both outputs of the 282 connected. Piano sounds brighter and a little flat or hollow with one output connected (in A above).

C) NAC 282 + Supercap DR

I presume more of everything from B, or A?

Posted on: 28 January 2018 by nigelb

But you have asked about a 282 with a SuperCapDR also. Are you not even going to try it?

Posted on: 28 January 2018 by Adam Zielinski

ryder. posted:
Adam Zielinski posted:
I eventually settled on my new 282 with a single Hi-Cap. And that is my 2nd 282
I disliked the previous one (used with a SuperCap DR) so much that I actually sold it and bought a 252 instead. Which I love.
Being an idiot, I then bought a new 282 which I love with my HiCap DR
I read your post several times but still couldn't get it. Would appreciate if you can expand on the reason(s) you sold the first 282/Supercap DR and why you hated it so much.
And the reason you bought the 2nd 282 with a Hicap DR since you hated the first one with the Supercap DR.
Lastly, which is the most important, the differences between the first 282/Supercap DR and the second 282/Hicap DR since you mentioned you loved the latter and hated the former. Would appreciate if you can clear things up as your impressions don't seem to coincide with majority who have tried. Thanks.

It's actually very simple (and complicated at the same time):

I first tried a pre-loved 282 (but my long-term goal / dream has always been 252).
I had to choose a power supply for it - so I went with a SuperCap DR (bought it new), knowing that it will come in handy when I eventually buy that 252.

But somehow 282 / SCDR with NAP 250 DR never brought much enjoyment.
When an opportunity arose - I quickly sold the 282 and bought a mint 252 and used it for a long time with NAP 250DR.
That 252, with NAP 300DR is now a backbone of my main system.

For many years I've been using a SuperNait2 in my other system. Added HiCapDR. Excellent add-on.
Then when NAP 250 DR became 'free' from my main system, added it to my SN2 + HiCap. It was ok, but not much of an improvement.
And then an opportunity arose to buy a 3-month old, ex-demo 282. It was a significant step-up from my SuperNait2 (which by then was 'reduced' to a pre-amp only). The offer from my dealer was great, so I took it.

That's the story of me purchasing the same pre-amp twice

It's also a story about well balanced systems:

282 + HiCapDR + NAP250DR + NDX FM/DAB +555PS with Powerlines and SuperLuminas just sings and rocks. I don't want to touch it in order not to spoil the magic.
My main system: 252 +SCDR + NAP300DR + NDS+555PDR with PowerLines and SuperLuminas also sounds wonderfull now - so I'm not touching that one either

Adam