Other good streaming devices that could front a Naim preamp?

One approach is store-renderer- DAC, another is store/renderer- DAC. There will certainly be players that can be used with external stores and all-in ones, but I’ll address just the first two categories:

DAC: as well as the two Naim offerings, nDAC and V1,there’s Chord Hugo, which in its mk2 incarnation is reputed to be significantly better than the original, which quite a few on here know and love. Then upwards, with Hugo TT and Dave,. There’s also the new Qutest, which is essentially a more system-oriented version of H2, but too new for much info on performance.

Separate Store & renderer

Store most commonly used is a NAS, but I assume you’re aware of that - however some people are  playing with what is effect is a DIY NAS using Raspberry Pi. Renderer ideas include microRendu (see Hugo of Streaming thread), and ND5XS or NDX front end.

Store/renderer

Uniti Core, Melco, Innuos Zenith, Mac Mini/Audirvana, or more DIY based around Raspberry Pi and microRendu.

A fair bit about all of these on the forum. I’ve used or otherwise heard NAS-ND5XS-Hugo (good), Mac Mini/Audirvana-Hugo 1 (better), Mac Mini/Audirvana-HugoTT (better still), Mac Mini/Audirvana-Dave (wow?). I briefly compared latter with Melco N1A-Dave and didn’t detect any obvious difference.

under the cost of ndx i would consider nd5x , uniticore with second hand ndac, or lumin d1.  

DrMark posted:

I'd like to know what other (non-Naim) streamers forum members have seen or heard that could be considered worthy front ends for a Naim preamp (such as a 282).  This would include both wireless and hard-wired possibilities...and not looking to necessarily land in the NDX level, as that would be too costly for me.

i see the nac 272 on your profile.....do you want to go to 282 with streamer? 

Hi Rooster - that may be the plan...just wanted to look into it and would prefer a non-Naim streaming setup if I go that way. I would still use my Vortexbox as the storage portion. It may be untenable to make the move financially, but the forum is always a good place to ask such things.

It would be a great move going up to a 282 but if you skimp on the front end you won’t hear the real benefits. 

You are looking at about £700 if your tech savvy enough to use a raspberry pi or nearer £1,000 if not. 

A used Chord Hugo or 2Qute would cost £640 - £700 and Raspberry Pi or Aurilic Aries, microRendu or SOtM between £50 - £400. 

Or to begin with just buy a Dac and connect up to your laptop and use that. 

DrMark posted:

I'd like to know what other (non-Naim) streamers forum members have seen or heard that could be considered worthy front ends for a Naim preamp (such as a 282).  This would include both wireless and hard-wired possibilities...and not looking to necessarily land in the NDX level, as that would be too costly for me.

I think that the main question is whether you want to front-end the preamp with a streamer (integrated network renderer and DAC) or with a pure DAC. In the second case, you have then the options of using a network renderer (wired to your LAN) or a server (wired or wireless) upstream the DAC.

My guess is that, in order to better your integrated N272, you will have to go for a very good DAC and a very good connection between that DAC and the new preamp.

Perhaps you can borrow a very good network player (ultraRendu, sMS-200ultra, etc.) and demo two or three DACs into the 272's preamp against your current setup? Another option would be to wait until it becomes clear what Naim are going to do with their classical line of products. I can imagine that they will have to announce something rather soon if they do not want to leave the whole field (DACs, network players and servers) to the competition.

aries mini digital  out with internal drive to a dac .

A good network player, a good dac, a 282 and the obligatory Hicap will cost a lot. I wonder whether keeping the 272 and swapping the XP5xs for an XPS DR or PS555 DR might be a better way. 

DrMark,

Sonore & SoTM both make very well considered devices. I use the ultraRendu and would thoroughly recommend it.

If your tastes are for more expense then the DCS Network Bridge  is rather fine.

If your wallet is more constrained the Raspberry Pi 3 with the right spdif card can be very good.

I would recommend Hans Beekhuysen's YT channel where I feel he gives unbiased reviews.

An issue with streamer recommendations is that how good a component of this sort sounds will depend upon the surrounding equipment, and how much attention has been paid to such things as power and grounding.

If you were only a tad closer I would invite you over!

M

Hungryhalibut posted:

A good network player, a good dac, a 282 and the obligatory Hicap will cost a lot. I wonder whether keeping the 272 and swapping the XP5xs for an XPS DR or PS555 DR might be a better way. 

I completely agree HH,I tried an XP5xs with my 272 when I first demo’d it,to me it barely added anything....now the XPSDR is much better.I also tried adding a Hugo 1,and Hugo 2 between my Core,and the 272,and did not find much improvement over the DAC in the 272/XPSDR.To The  OP ...Before you dismiss the 272,I urge you to try an XPSDR,or even a 555DR,which I have not done yet myself.

One option if you have a dac, and even worth considering or demoing without a dac is Bluesound Node 2. I have the node 1 to add streaming services to my ns01, and it is very good for the price, and no setup just connecting it to the network and setting up streaming services, and searching for music on the network.

Claus

Claus - can that device communicate wirelessly with my VortexBox via UPnP?

No quarter posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

A good network player, a good dac, a 282 and the obligatory Hicap will cost a lot. I wonder whether keeping the 272 and swapping the XP5xs for an XPS DR or PS555 DR might be a better way. 

I completely agree HH,I tried an XP5xs with my 272 when I first demo’d it,to me it barely added anything....now the XPSDR is much better.I also tried adding a Hugo 1,and Hugo 2 between my Core,and the 272,and did not find much improvement over the DAC in the 272/XPSDR.To The  OP ...Before you dismiss the 272,I urge you to try an XPSDR,or even a 555DR,which I have not done yet myself.

Coming from an 272/XP5xs user I would also audition the XPSdr or 555 before moving on from the 272 even though to my ears the XP5xs does add performance to the 272 just got to give it time to burn in.

DrMark posted:

Claus - can that device communicate wirelessly with my VortexBox via UPnP?

sorry Drmark but i don’t understand well why you want to change from 272 to 282 with less good streamer than the 272, because the preamp part of the 272 is nearly the same as the 282.  So you will downsize the quality of your system.

Or you can have the 282. but with a better streamer than 272, so it must be ndx, bluesound node with ndac or hugo, nd5x/ndac or hugo, lumin d1.....

The most simple upgrade, and the least costly,  would be a better dac to your 272.  

French Rooster posted:

 

The most simple upgrade, and the least costly,  would be a better dac to your 272.  

I seem to recall that you can’t simply add an external DAC to the 272.

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

 

The most simple upgrade, and the least costly,  would be a better dac to your 272.  

I seem to recall that you can’t simply add an external DAC to the 272.

ah, i am surprised, are you sure ?  why?

The reason I am contemplating a change is because I am sick and tired of not being able to listen to music reliably. When I first got it (the 272), it was fine, but it has gotten worse and worse, and listening for 10-20 seconds at a time with drop outs of 5-10 seconds just isn't enjoyable. (I guess I need to reset my expectations.) Not to mention the crummy app that loses its mind and can't find its way. So I add a CD Player using digital coax, and it can't handle that either - that was covered on another thread a while back...horrible static noise after a few minutes. Does the same if I try to play/watch a DVD - so I now watch movies with TV sound only, or in my bedroom on the other system. Gee, what's not to love?

"No Network" (well everything else in the house seems to be able to find it). "Stopped" (Well then "go" for crissakes). Reboot. Close the app and reopen: "Another device has connected". (What other device; there are no other bloody devices.) This is not what I expect from a $7K list price product.

When it works, it is the best sound I have ever had. Unfortunately a 20-25% success rate is not good enough for me. I was better off with my SBT and the SN...at least it played music every time I wanted it to. Now even when it works it is reboot the 272, futz with the app, try again, and then instead of relaxing to some music, I am angry and feel stupid for spending that kind of money on something that gets its ass handed to it by a $300 device that is no longer even supported.

As a person who struggles to even make it into bed by midnight - 1:00 AM because of 3 jobs, I have precious little time for music and relaxing, and this unit is stealing that from me. Sometimes I only want to listen to one tune before bed, and by the time I get done with the 272 I am so angry I cannot even sleep.

I was trying to avoid bringing all this up because it will result in me being character assassinated for having trouble with a Naim product, or blamed for the sub-par performance of a very expensive piece of gear, that is so awesome when it works, but that is far too small a percentage of the time. I just want to be able to enjoy quality musical reproduction on demand in the year 2018.

DrMark posted:

The reason I am contemplating a change is because I am sick and tired of not being able to listen to music reliably. When I first got it (the 272), it was fine, but it has gotten worse and worse, and listening for 10-20 seconds at a time with drop outs of 5-10 seconds just isn't enjoyable. (I guess I need to reset my expectations.) Not to mention the crummy app that loses its mind and can't find its way. So I add a CD Player using digital coax, and it can't handle that either - that was covered on another thread a while back...horrible static noise after a few minutes. Does the same if I try to play/watch a DVD - so I now watch movies with TV sound only, or in my bedroom on the other system. Gee, what's not to love?

"No Network" (well everything else in the house seems to be able to find it). "Stopped" (Well then "go" for crissakes). Reboot. Close the app and reopen: "Another device has connected". (What other device; there are no other bloody devices.) This is not what I expect from a $7K list price product.

When it works, it is the best sound I have ever had. Unfortunately a 20-25% success rate is not good enough for me. I was better off with my SBT and the SN...at least it played music every time I wanted it to. Now even when it works it is reboot the 272, futz with the app, try again, and then instead of relaxing to some music, I am angry and feel stupid for spending that kind of money on something that gets its ass handed to it by a $300 device that is no longer even supported.

As a person who struggles to even make it into bed by midnight - 1:00 AM because of 3 jobs, I have precious little time for music and relaxing, and this unit is stealing that from me. Sometimes I only want to listen to one tune before bed, and by the time I get done with the 272 I am so angry I cannot even sleep.

I was trying to avoid bringing all this up because it will result in me being character assassinated for having trouble with a Naim product, or blamed for the sub-par performance of a very expensive piece of gear, that is so awesome when it works, but that is far too small a percentage of the time. I just want to be able to enjoy quality musical reproduction on demand in the year 2018.

i am very sorry for your disappointment.  Are you running your 272 wirelessly ?   I have not heard this problem on the forum with the 272 , so i guess you are using only wifi, not lan.

If i am wrong, why have you kept this product which have anomalies ?  second hand ?

But if you can’t use lan cables in your house, the best way is to borrow other streamers which can work wirelessly better than the 272, but you must try at home before.

French Rooster posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

 

The most simple upgrade, and the least costly,  would be a better dac to your 272.  

I seem to recall that you can’t simply add an external DAC to the 272.

ah, i am surprised, are you sure ?  why?

IIRC you can only select analog in or digital source, not a digital source (interrnal renderer) and digital (DAC output). That is something I learnt from previous threads, but maybe is worth checking before making decisions on it.

IB

You can use an external DAC with the 272...I did it with the Hugo 1 and Hugo 2.I used the digital out of my Core,into the Hugo,then analog outs of the Hugo go into the analog inputs on the 272.In the 272 menu,you simply select that analog input,which has to be activated in the menu.Then you simply choose a song on the Core,hit play,and it works.You might be thinking of using the digital out of the 272 to a DAC,and back into the 272...which you CAN NOT do.Basically it works,but has to be a a different source,Core,CD player etc.

In this scenario,you are NOT using the internal DAC of the 272.

No quarter posted:

IB

You can use an external DAC with the 272...I did it with the Hugo 1 and Hugo 2.I used the digital out of my Core,into the Hugo,then analog outs of the Hugo go into the analog inputs on the 272.In the 272 menu,you simply select that analog input,which has to be activated in the menu.Then you simply choose a song on the Core,hit play,and it works.You might be thinking of using the digital out of the 272 to a DAC,and back into the 272...which you CAN NOT do.Basically it works,but has to be a a different source,Core,CD player etc.

In this scenario,you are NOT using the internal DAC of the 272.

so the 272 is used only as a preamp, if i understand well ?  for streaming you need a different streaming component than the 272?     but with ndx, nd5x and nds you can just add another dac and it works, but not the 272?    

DrMark posted:

The reason I am contemplating a change is because I am sick and tired of not being able to listen to music reliably. When I first got it (the 272), it was fine, but it has gotten worse and worse, and listening for 10-20 seconds at a time with drop outs of 5-10 seconds just isn't enjoyable.

<snip>

I was trying to avoid bringing all this up because it will result in me being character assassinated for having trouble with a Naim product, or blamed for the sub-par performance of a very expensive piece of gear

Sorry to hear your painful experience, DrMark - hugely frustrating for you. I’m not in the camp of blaming for having reasonable expectations. I may not be able to help but have two and a half suggestions before you move to a different and lower maintenance solution...which you obviously must do to preserve your emotional health if no resolution to your non-functioning 272 is forthcoming.

First off, try to get support from a dealer, distributor, or Naim. Something is truly wrong in there, it’s not normal and shouldn’t fail the way you describe. It can take time and not be a happy moment to learn the path forward is expensive or complex... but the desire and willingness to support is a real strength. Giving them the chance to prove it is easy and worthwhile.

Second, try a complete reset of everything in your 272, particularly including reflashing the firmware. I think there are some rare but extreme internal failure states that can’t be reset any other way. If you’re not already in the beta program, ask Naim Support to let you join and load up the latest beta which has a bunch of fixes for stuff on the networking side (and I believe, given how integrated it all is, this may help with non-streaming issues as well - but a guess only). The latest beta firmware is much more recent than the latest public release. Since it worked fine out of the box when new, this is the closest you’ll get to returning to those happier days.

Third, and most effort for least likely gain, double check “simplest possible setup” functionality. Does it work stand-alone (no network connections) with FM or from a USB key, iPhone, SPDIF (coax or optical)  or analog input? Does it still work on a simple intranet wired lan: connected with Ethernet to a a stand alone router (not from your ISP or with an modem connection to the outside)? If so, what happens when you add your NAS locally? If you get here, there is light at the end of the tunnel for complete functionality again... but if you don’t, you can move on knowing you’ve exhausted your options. 

Very best wishes as you explore the paths ahead. 

Regards alan

French Rooster posted:

No quarter posted:

IB

You can use an external DAC with the 272...I did it with the Hugo 1 and Hugo 2.I used the digital out of my Core,into the Hugo,then analog outs of the Hugo go into the analog inputs on the 272.In the 272 menu,you simply select that analog input,which has to be activated in the menu.Then you simply choose a song on the Core,hit play,and it works.You might be thinking of using the digital out of the 272 to a DAC,and back into the 272...which you CAN NOT do.Basically it works,but has to be a a different source,Core,CD player etc.

In this scenario,you are NOT using the internal DAC of the 272.

so the 272 is used only as a preamp, if i understand well ?  for streaming you need a different streaming component than the 272?     but with ndx, nd5x and nds you can just add another dac and it works, but not the 272?    

Yes,it is only used as an analog preamp when you use an external DAC,so you need another source.It can also be used as a streamer only,using its digital out into an external DAC,this may be what I end up using mine as,feeding a Dave DAC,so it essentially performs like an NDX,giving you internet radio,Tidal,UPNP.Or,use it as a streamer DAC,and preamp like I am doing at the moment.

Have you tried a sonos Connect into a decent DAC? It may or may not be as good a source as the 272 but it will be reliable and versatile. There are many opinions on this approach (anti for the most part on this forum, Pro on others) but you could always buy one second hand and sell on if it does work for you?  Use the 272 as a preamp and DAC only for the purposes of the experiment. If you like it, then switch the 272 for a dedicated pre.  

Dr Mark

I have just purchased a used SOtM sms-100 mini server for a very reasonable price below £200. This is the predecessor to the -200 It is also just a renderer needing a usb dac to work. It will stream from your Nas and via Squeezelite(Logitech Media), AirPlay and upnp DNLA platforms  and also has HQ player built in meaning it can stream Tidal, Spotify and Qubuz as well as internet Radio. 

It can handle files from 24/384 So DSD. Sounds like a great little unit for the money, not the latest and not supported for future updates but for less than £200 it represents great value.