Other good streaming devices that could front a Naim preamp?

No quarter posted:

IB

You can use an external DAC with the 272...I did it with the Hugo 1 and Hugo 2.I used the digital out of my Core,into the Hugo,then analog outs of the Hugo go into the analog inputs on the 272.In the 272 menu,you simply select that analog input,which has to be activated in the menu.Then you simply choose a song on the Core,hit play,and it works.You might be thinking of using the digital out of the 272 to a DAC,and back into the 272...which you CAN NOT do.Basically it works,but has to be a a different source,Core,CD player etc.

In this scenario,you are NOT using the internal DAC of the 272.

Yes, but that isn’t simply using an external DAC in place of the 272’s but requires a different renderer - in your example the Core, which is fine if you already have a Core, but I don’t recall the OP having one.

Seems like we are going around in circles here IB,the 272 can use an external DAC if you really want,but this does nothing to solve DRMARKs problem of the 272 not working properly.All I can add is that sometimes my 272 buffers for a second or two using internet radio or Tidal,but not that often.BUT,it never pauses,buffers,stops etc. When using my Core as a source,which is directly attached to the 272(SPDIF).

No quarter posted:

Seems like we are going around in circles here IB,the 272 can use an external DAC if you really want,but this does nothing to solve DRMARKs problem of the 272 not working properly.All I can add is that sometimes my 272 buffers for a second or two using internet radio or Tidal,but not that often.BUT,it never pauses,buffers,stops etc. When using my Core as a source,which is directly attached to the 272(SPDIF).

I know this is not helping the OP, and if you look back to the start of this thread you’ll see that in my own first post here I did suggest a store-renderer plus DAC, even mentioning the Core as one possibility. In this latest series of exchanges my contributions have been responding to the suggestion from French Rooster that a solution might be simply adding a DAC to the 272, pointing out that is not possible (based on my recollection of information from 272 owners).

No quarter posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

A good network player, a good dac, a 282 and the obligatory Hicap will cost a lot. I wonder whether keeping the 272 and swapping the XP5xs for an XPS DR or PS555 DR might be a better way. 

I completely agree HH,I tried an XP5xs with my 272 when I first demo’d it,to me it barely added anything....now the XPSDR is much better.I also tried adding a Hugo 1,and Hugo 2 between my Core,and the 272,and did not find much improvement over the DAC in the 272/XPSDR.To The  OP ...Before you dismiss the 272,I urge you to try an XPSDR,or even a 555DR,which I have not done yet myself.

The little difference heard between the internal streamer/DAC of the 272 vs an external DAC/ 272 pre amp is a reflection of the pre amp in the 272.

IME, there’s not much difference between a bare 272 and a 282 powered by a 200. However, adding respective external PSUs options revealed that the 282 has better SQ (dealer demo - NAP200 and S-400s were downstream. V1 was the DAC and a NAS feeding the 272).

Surely by using Core>>Hugo>>272 your only actually using the 272’s pre amp section in which case you are better off with Core/streaming renderer>>dac>>282?

For the OP, Mac Mini and Audirvana (plus a DAC with built in USB or DAC plus USB converter) is a good a low cost option, which also enables streaming from TIDAL, Qobuz, and Highteasudio as well as iTunes/internet radio, in addition to playback of locally stored tracks. 

There’s a MS Windows version of Audirvana in the works too

It actually seems to me that the OP’s 272 may be faulty, so getting it overhauled by Naim is one obvious approach - the others are replace it with another one, though I can understand a reticence in case the same happens, and otherwise just what the OP asks. 

Otherwise there is always the possibility that something else is causing the problems, perhaps serious mains problems, or maybe a high level RF source. I don’t know if one of these could actually cause all the problems described, but if they can, there would remIn the possibility that they might affect an alternative source. 

Jude2012 posted:

For the OP, Mac Mini and Audirvana (plus a DAC with built in USB or DAC plus USB converter) is a good a low cost option, which also enables streaming from TIDAL, Qobuz, and Highteasudio as well as iTunes/internet radio, in addition to playback of locally stored tracks. 

There’s a MS Windows version of Audirvana in the works too

Indeed, and the MM aproach is what I use’ though any computer-based source needs RF isolation if the DAC is susceptible (eg Hugo ), and there is a small amount of user-involvement to set up, compared to some of the other options (quite a bit if you get a late 2012 model MM  and upgrade hard disk and RAM yourself to minimise cost)

Hi DrMark, I find a Naim streamer transport like the NDX feeding the Hugo (original) into my 552 absolutely divine. For whats its worth its significantly more enjoyable in presentation than the HugoMk2 which whatever reason just sounds too 'hard' with my 552. The Hugo (original) has a wonderful sweetness and bounce that really gels with the higher Naim NACs. This is just not present to my ears in the mk2 variety with my 552

The only down side is what to do if and when my Hugo dies and is not repairable as I have yet to hear a DAC that gels with Naim to the same extent.... which in some ways is a little surprising...

DrMark posted:

The reason I am contemplating a change is because I am sick and tired of not being able to listen to music reliably. When I first got it (the 272), it was fine, but it has gotten worse and worse, and listening for 10-20 seconds at a time with drop outs of 5-10 seconds just isn't enjoyable. (I guess I need to reset my expectations.) Not to mention the crummy app that loses its mind and can't find its way. So I add a CD Player using digital coax, and it can't handle that either - that was covered on another thread a while back...horrible static noise after a few minutes. Does the same if I try to play/watch a DVD - so I now watch movies with TV sound only, or in my bedroom on the other system. Gee, what's not to love?

"No Network" (well everything else in the house seems to be able to find it). "Stopped" (Well then "go" for crissakes). Reboot. Close the app and reopen: "Another device has connected". (What other device; there are no other bloody devices.) This is not what I expect from a $7K list price product.

When it works, it is the best sound I have ever had. Unfortunately a 20-25% success rate is not good enough for me. I was better off with my SBT and the SN...at least it played music every time I wanted it to. Now even when it works it is reboot the 272, futz with the app, try again, and then instead of relaxing to some music, I am angry and feel stupid for spending that kind of money on something that gets its ass handed to it by a $300 device that is no longer even supported.

As a person who struggles to even make it into bed by midnight - 1:00 AM because of 3 jobs, I have precious little time for music and relaxing, and this unit is stealing that from me. Sometimes I only want to listen to one tune before bed, and by the time I get done with the 272 I am so angry I cannot even sleep.

I was trying to avoid bringing all this up because it will result in me being character assassinated for having trouble with a Naim product, or blamed for the sub-par performance of a very expensive piece of gear, that is so awesome when it works, but that is far too small a percentage of the time. I just want to be able to enjoy quality musical reproduction on demand in the year 2018.

Ciao Mark,

I am sorry for you, not so much for the frustrations caused by the Darling Naim Product of 2017, but because I know your environmental difficulties with where and how you live and work. If you could manage a vacation here, your bed is done and ready.

That said, it's a known fact (about which I suppose nobody gives a s*it given that I myself don't) that I think that the mix of music and informatics is toxic and risky. I too have had a Squeezebox Classic, and it worked flawlessly and good enough for background music; the little Soundbridge I have on the kitchen counter (€90, some ten years ago when I didn't even know what a network player was) has never lost a bit. In turn, I have a Marantz Consolette which had a retail of quasi €900, BMRs as tweeters, a gorgeous build and a very good sound but with a network behaviour that is simply laughable, even wired, and an app which isn't supported since 2013. One night I woke up around three to have a glass of water and, crossing the living room, I noticed that the Consolette was off, its display dark, and it was playing music, all by itself, luckily at a very low level. It was off. I'd rather have proper ghosts.

I know, this is of no help for you, and I am sorry for that. The most likely truth, which nobody is ready to accept, is that Naim, started as a one-man amplifier-making company, used to build amplifiers. We take for granted that it was all the genius of Julian Vereker but most are aware that external engineers were consulted for subsequent projects. The mind behind Naim's most noteworthy and idiomatic products, their loudspeaker systems, is Roy George. But to dive into the world of informatics and compete with huge, specialized companies, is in my opinion their legitimate plan to stay up to times and enlarge their customers' lot, but is not necessarily led to success, always and perforce. For sure, prices and performance must have a relationship whatsoever, but another truth is that in general audio prices are kept high because, quite simply, most customers feel safer if gear is expensive and that Naim exploits this elementary business technique the best possible way. At least, they do it with elegance and with a post-sale service which has almost no equal.

The suggestion of substituting an XPSDR for an XPS 5XS is, to me, weird to say the least: how a PSU – which is thought to work with your product – can be detrimental or, in a much costlier version, beneficial to an apparatus's network behaviour is a mystery to me, given that the 272 is supposed to work flawlessly even without any external PSU. If some members used an elephant to power the 272, they would suggest an elephant as the solution.

My suggestion is to consider a second hand Squeezebox Touch and a SuperNait1, plus a decent record/CD player as main source. I have had a Squeezebox Classic and the Roku Soundbridge for years, and neither has ever lost one bit. You may also discover that background music - or semi background music, when you are not sitting in the sweet spot with your ears on a hard on for P&RT, stage, details, timbre, drive, bass, emotional involvement, yet you're hearing music – is not so bad. There are people who have a gift for making money and others who have one for women, or cooking, or power or painting. You are like me: you're not the HiFi kind. Accept this fact, reset your expectations and try to have a happier life. Please, I care about that. Simplify the uselessly complex, and get free.

Your friend 

Max

Max_B posted:

The suggestion of substituting an XPSDR for an XPS 5XS is, to me, weird to say the least: how a PSU – which is thought to work with your product – can be detrimental or, in a much costlier version, beneficial to an apparatus's network behaviour is a mystery to me, given that the 272 is supposed to work flawlessly even without any external PSU. If some members used an elephant to power the 272, they would suggest an elephant as the solution.

 

Max, if you read through the posts from the top the suggestion of the PSU was before DrMark stated he had streaming issues.

Personally I think the Naim app is clunky at times and the amount of time resetting the app is about 50% using it but I have just got accustom to it.

DrMark posted:

The reason I am contemplating a change is because I am sick and tired of not being able to listen to music reliably. When I first got it (the 272), it was fine, but it has gotten worse and worse, and listening for 10-20 seconds at a time with drop outs of 5-10 seconds just isn't enjoyable. (I guess I need to reset my expectations.) Not to mention the crummy app that loses its mind and can't find its way. So I add a CD Player using digital coax, and it can't handle that either - that was covered on another thread a while back...horrible static noise after a few minutes. Does the same if I try to play/watch a DVD - so I now watch movies with TV sound only, or in my bedroom on the other system. Gee, what's not to love?

"No Network" (well everything else in the house seems to be able to find it). "Stopped" (Well then "go" for crissakes). Reboot. Close the app and reopen: "Another device has connected". (What other device; there are no other bloody devices.) This is not what I expect from a $7K list price product.

When it works, it is the best sound I have ever had. Unfortunately a 20-25% success rate is not good enough for me. I was better off with my SBT and the SN...at least it played music every time I wanted it to. Now even when it works it is reboot the 272, futz with the app, try again, and then instead of relaxing to some music, I am angry and feel stupid for spending that kind of money on something that gets its ass handed to it by a $300 device that is no longer even supported.

As a person who struggles to even make it into bed by midnight - 1:00 AM because of 3 jobs, I have precious little time for music and relaxing, and this unit is stealing that from me. Sometimes I only want to listen to one tune before bed, and by the time I get done with the 272 I am so angry I cannot even sleep.

I was trying to avoid bringing all this up because it will result in me being character assassinated for having trouble with a Naim product, or blamed for the sub-par performance of a very expensive piece of gear, that is so awesome when it works, but that is far too small a percentage of the time. I just want to be able to enjoy quality musical reproduction on demand in the year 2018.

Dr Mark, it sounds as if the 272 is in some way faulty. I’d suggest that you get it looked at before deciding to get rid of it - you certainly cannot carry on as things are at the moment. The fact that the music keeps stopping sounds like a buffering issue, which it should be possible to resolve by sorting out your network infrastructure. But the fact that your CD player and DVD player won’t work makes it sound as if something in the 272 itself is faulty. I don’t know how long you have had the player but it may still be covered by the two year warranty. In any event, your dealer can hopefully visit you and try to identify exactly what is going wrong. I do hope it can be resolved quickly. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Dr Mark, it sounds as if the 272 is in some way faulty. I’d suggest that you get it looked at before deciding to get rid of it - you certainly cannot carry on as things are at the moment. The fact that the music keeps stopping sounds like a buffering issue, which it should be possible to resolve by sorting out your network infrastructure. But the fact that your CD player and DVD player won’t work makes it sound as if something in the 272 itself is faulty. I don’t know how long you have had the player but it may still be covered by the two year warranty. In any event, your dealer can hopefully visit you and try to identify exactly what is going wrong. I do hope it can be resolved quickly. 

+1

I know I may sound like a broken record: but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with the NAC-N 272 and UnitiQute (1 24/192 version) as both work 99% flawlessly in my setup (and I assume 99% of other setups).  I do have some "mid level" (Cisco / Linksys) switches as a "backbone" but then other domestic Netgear switches and a Apple AirPort Extreme for wireless access thrown in there.  However if you have problems on your home network then you may come across problems with your Naim (or Marantz or SotM or Auralic or whoever) streamer - and one of the main culprits for problems is if you're relying on ISP supplied routers (though even this should work).

As HH says - it does sound like something is faulty especially if the CD player and DVD player don't work.  You need to call your dealer and get it sorted.

Dr. Mark, I also recommend you to contact a dealer first to get the hardware problems sorted.

However my opinion is that you don’t need an NDX, nor do you need a 272 nor a power supply. If you sell them you will have more than enough funds for a good amp plus streamer.

As a streaming transport device I can recommend Allo’s USBridge (USB output) or DigiOne (coax output) for approx 180$. This will involve some hands-on work. If you haven’t time or inclination, you will have to spend more dollars on one of the other more bespoke options suggested in earlier posts.

A pre-loved DAC can be had for under 1000$ (e.g. Chord 2Qute, Hugo1) or even for 350$ (Chord Mojo).

As for the software, well all control apps are crap to a larger or lesser degree with one exception: the subscription-based ROON (for which you will need a PC/Mac or laptop and a Roon Ready streamer as above). It is a joy to use and is very reliable.

I do not recommend streaming via WiFi but I do this in my kitchen system, where there is no Ethernet socket, by running a cable from a WiFi repeater into a Raspberry Pi which feeds my Muso.

Just a few ideas, hope they help you moving forward.

DrMark posted:

The reason I am contemplating a change is because I am sick and tired of not being able to listen to music reliably. When I first got it (the 272), it was fine, but it has gotten worse and worse, and listening for 10-20 seconds at a time with drop outs of 5-10 seconds just isn't enjoyable. (I guess I need to reset my expectations.) Not to mention the crummy app that loses its mind and can't find its way. So I add a CD Player using digital coax, and it can't handle that either - that was covered on another thread a while back...horrible static noise after a few minutes. Does the same if I try to play/watch a DVD - so I now watch movies with TV sound only, or in my bedroom on the other system. Gee, what's not to love?

"No Network" (well everything else in the house seems to be able to find it). "Stopped" (Well then "go" for crissakes). Reboot. Close the app and reopen: "Another device has connected". (What other device; there are no other bloody devices.) This is not what I expect from a $7K list price product.

When it works, it is the best sound I have ever had. Unfortunately a 20-25% success rate is not good enough for me. I was better off with my SBT and the SN...at least it played music every time I wanted it to. Now even when it works it is reboot the 272, futz with the app, try again, and then instead of relaxing to some music, I am angry and feel stupid for spending that kind of money on something that gets its ass handed to it by a $300 device that is no longer even supported.

As a person who struggles to even make it into bed by midnight - 1:00 AM because of 3 jobs, I have precious little time for music and relaxing, and this unit is stealing that from me. Sometimes I only want to listen to one tune before bed, and by the time I get done with the 272 I am so angry I cannot even sleep.

I was trying to avoid bringing all this up because it will result in me being character assassinated for having trouble with a Naim product, or blamed for the sub-par performance of a very expensive piece of gear, that is so awesome when it works, but that is far too small a percentage of the time. I just want to be able to enjoy quality musical reproduction on demand in the year 2018.

In this case I suggest that you first buy a 35$ chromecast audio (CA) and connect its output to the analog input of your 272. If the CA works flawlessly (apart from the possible lack of gapless replay) for a couple of days in your current wireless infrastructure and using Bubble UPnP (Android) or Linn Kazoo (iOS and Android) as control points, then you know for sure that there is a problem either with the streaming card of your 272 or with the Naim app (or with both). On the other hand, if the CA also has troubles, then you know that something in your LAN infrastructure is fishy. At this point you will have spent 35$ and about 10 minutes to setup the CA but you will be in a much better position than now. No matter whether you then decide to talk to your dealer, to an electrician, to buy a DAC and a network player or something else, you will be able to make choices that you likely will not to regret. In contrast, deciding to move away from the 272 without having understood the reasons of the troubles that you are experiencing is a bad idea, in my view. I wish you manage to sort out the mess very soon!

Lately, an Apple firmware release waiting to be installed seemed to make my network more unreliable than usual.  Installing the firmware updates there, and a similar update on my main Asus router restored typical reliability, which isn’t ever perfect, for me.  

I do find wiring network devices like computers and streamers to a router that connects wirelessly to the network is far more reliable than using the Wi-Fi radios in those computers and streamers.

Nick

You need a repair guy not a dac/streamer, maybe it is network issue maybe  the unit got a problem

altough I have some disconnects with tidal and the app is sometimes gets crazy, the problem is not same level as yours

there been times that I was very happy to have a turntable and CD player but streaming has its benefits

NickSeattle posted:

Lately, an Apple firmware release waiting to be installed [on my Apple AirPort Extreme and Expresses] seemed to make my network more unreliable than usual.  Installing the firmware updates there, and a similar update on my main Asus router restored typical reliability, which isn’t ever perfect, for me.  

I do find wiring network devices like computers and streamers to a router that connects wirelessly to the network is far more reliable than using the Wi-Fi radios in those computers and streamers.

Nick

HiFiman posted: 

Max, if you read through the posts from the top the suggestion of the PSU was before DrMark stated he had streaming issues.

Personally I think the Naim app is clunky at times and the amount of time resetting the app is about 50% using it but I have just got accustom to it.

Hi,

you were not the only one suggesting a move to XPSDR... I wasn't necessarily addressing you.

I too have issues with my Consolette's app (and its general relationship with telematic lines), but in the end you pay €650 for it and it has BMRs...

One would think that designing apps for a given network appliance isn't rocket science: I have downloaded a free app for my Soundbridge which was free, was developed by a guy for the simple pleasure of being useful to the owners of something discontinued since years, and works perfectly, with a number of features that were unthinkable on the ultra basic display of the unit at the time it came out. There's people who regularly cares to update the SqueezeServer even though all Squeezeboxes are also discontinued. But it seems you can't have a Naim app that works at the level of its unit's price from out of the box. This is why I have got accustomed to think of three Naim: the first one, until JV's death; the second one, until the release of the Uniti. And the present time's. I keep myself safely within the boundaries of the 2002 – 2010 or so era.

Best

Max

DrMark,

If you want something that just works, have a look at a Linn KDS Renew.

They’re widely available, sound great, are totally reliable and easy to set up (the software is a doddle, too) and they work beautifully with Naim gear. What’s more, they can be tailored to the most difficult of rooms and, probably, your specific speakers.  And it’s a one box solution!

No probs Max, I too when the app needs restarting think that it's time to move away from a Naim streaming platform and opt for something else.

Currently I use a 272/XP5xs and a CB250 with olive fascia, 250 just recently serviced sounds superb when it all works but when the app crashes I think about returning to a NAC82/HiCap with none Naim outboard DAC and streamer.

I remember now that the op, Drmark, opened already a topic called »i am so sick of streaming « , on 29/07/2017.   Drmark don’t use the 272 on ethernet cable but wirelessly.  He has a big house and said he can’t have lan cables.   The problem is most certainly there.

French Rooster posted:

I remember now that the op, Drmark, opened already a topic called »i am so sick of streaming « , on 29/07/2017.   Drmark don’t use the 272 on ethernet cable but wirelessly.  He has a big house and said he can’t have lan cables.   The problem is most certainly there.

What do you mean by "there"? Of course I remember the original thread. But I do not remember that in that thread a conclusion was reached on where the problem lies. There might be problems in the OP's wireless setup, in the streaming section of his 272, in the device running his Naim app, in the Naim app itself or somewhere else!

My first streamer a Naim UQ suffered similar drop outs used wirelessly this got better using power line Ethernet but that is apparently a no no

However as soon as I took the time to install 45m of Ethernet cabling from one side of and from one floor to another the drop outs almost ceased. 

nbpf posted:

French Rooster posted:

I remember now that the op, Drmark, opened already a topic called »i am so sick of streaming « , on 29/07/2017.   Drmark don’t use the 272 on ethernet cable but wirelessly.  He has a big house and said he can’t have lan cables.   The problem is most certainly there.

What do you mean by "there"? Of course I remember the original thread. But I do not remember that in that thread a conclusion was reached on where the problem lies. There might be problems in the OP's wireless setup, in the streaming section of his 272, in the device running his Naim app, in the Naim app itself or somewhere else!

Yes nbff, there was no conclusion in this past thread, and maybe the problem is with a faulty 272.  But in general streaming wirelessly with naim is not the best way.  Anyway i give just my main idea, but don’t say i am 100% right.

Why the op doesn’t try lan, just to verify with very cheap lans to verify if the drop outs will still be there?