Other good streaming devices that could front a Naim preamp?

Sounds like a network issue to me. My problems were overcome by getting a new virmin superhub modem/router.

Thanks to all for the encouragement and advice - I have yet to connect the network cable - trying to carve out the time.

And in the 272's ongoing effort to make me nuts, it has worked wirelessly exactly as one would hope the past 2 nights and even this morning (only one short drop out) but I am confident it will return to its evil ways. I'd like for it to be acting up when I connect via hardwire so emphasize the change that I assume will take place.

And Huge, I will definitely look into that app, because there is flakiness in the Naim app when I run it. (WIll not go into details at present.)

DrMark posted:

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And in the 272's ongoing effort to make me nuts, it has worked wirelessly exactly as one would hope the past 2 nights and even this morning (only one short drop out) but I am confident it will return to its evil ways. I'd like for it to be acting up when I connect via hardwire so emphasize the change that I assume will take place.

You just know it knows what you’re doing and is going to behave until you go back to relying on it...

New Uniti products supposed to work better setup wireless. Maybe a Nova instead of current setup. Also Auralic Aries Mini is designed to work better wireless instead of wired. 

The Auralic products looked intriguing when I was following up on suggestions from this thread. 

I probably only need to simultaneously stream video to my computer at the same time to create the 272 dropouts, then hardwire and note improvement.  Then I will check Hook's app suggestion.

 THEN I will write to Naim support with the info they requested, and mention the CD/DVD issue with the digital coax.

Had my usual issues last night, and hooked up the lengthy run of CAT5 and they immediately disappeared, probably to no one's surprise.

Now I have reliable audio, but the cable running through the house has disqualified me from appearing in Better Homes & Gardens magazine. 

Next to try the other app suggestion from Huge, and send an email to Naim tech support...as well as start checking on the digital cable problem with the CD/DVD.

That’s awesome to hear that an Ethernet connection has solved your problems with streaming. I would caution optimism however. 

Im on a fast fiber connection (220+ down) with hardwired 272 and I have good days and bad days. There have been periods where I can go weeks without a drop, then there are days when I can’t even get through a single track. Again this is talking about Tidal only.

Do contact naim support they have been helpful with the beta firmware, which has improved reliability. Requires pc to connect to 272 via usb to flash. 

In a perfect world Naim would offer an upgrade to have new streamer board put into 272 that supports Roon RAAT!

DrMark posted:

The reason I am contemplating a change is because I am sick and tired of not being able to listen to music reliably. When I first got it (the 272), it was fine, but it has gotten worse and worse, and listening for 10-20 seconds at a time with drop outs of 5-10 seconds just isn't enjoyable. (I guess I need to reset my expectations.) Not to mention the crummy app that loses its mind and can't find its way. So I add a CD Player using digital coax, and it can't handle that either - that was covered on another thread a while back...horrible static noise after a few minutes. Does the same if I try to play/watch a DVD - so I now watch movies with TV sound only, or in my bedroom on the other system. Gee, what's not to love?

"No Network" (well everything else in the house seems to be able to find it). "Stopped" (Well then "go" for crissakes). Reboot. Close the app and reopen: "Another device has connected". (What other device; there are no other bloody devices.) This is not what I expect from a $7K list price product.

When it works, it is the best sound I have ever had. Unfortunately a 20-25% success rate is not good enough for me. I was better off with my SBT and the SN...at least it played music every time I wanted it to. Now even when it works it is reboot the 272, futz with the app, try again, and then instead of relaxing to some music, I am angry and feel stupid for spending that kind of money on something that gets its ass handed to it by a $300 device that is no longer even supported.

As a person who struggles to even make it into bed by midnight - 1:00 AM because of 3 jobs, I have precious little time for music and relaxing, and this unit is stealing that from me. Sometimes I only want to listen to one tune before bed, and by the time I get done with the 272 I am so angry I cannot even sleep.

I was trying to avoid bringing all this up because it will result in me being character assassinated for having trouble with a Naim product, or blamed for the sub-par performance of a very expensive piece of gear, that is so awesome when it works, but that is far too small a percentage of the time. I just want to be able to enjoy quality musical reproduction on demand in the year 2018.

I have same issues as discussed in another thread. 

DrMark posted:

Had my usual issues last night, and hooked up the lengthy run of CAT5 and they immediately disappeared, probably to no one's surprise.

Now I have reliable audio, but the cable running through the house has disqualified me from appearing in Better Homes & Gardens magazine. 

Next to try the other app suggestion from Huge, and send an email to Naim tech support...as well as start checking on the digital cable problem with the CD/DVD.

Unfortunately this strongly suggests that either your WiFi signal isn't strong enough or it isn't consistent enough at the location of your 272.  If this is the case, using a different app won't help at all.

However there are still possibilities...

If you really do need to continue using wireless...
The simplest answer is to put a WiFi signal strength meter on you phone, then move your router around (within your acceptable limits) to maximise the signal strength at the location of your 272 however this may not be enough)
The best answer is to use a separate dedicated WAP (Wireless Access Point), rather than the one built into your router, connect it to your router (turn off the router's own WAP) and move this around to get the best signal strength)
Another possibility is to use a WAP in 'Bridge' mode - i.e. it acts as a separate wireless receiver which can then be connected to the 272 via an Ethernet cable.  This could then be positioned somewhere closer to the 272 (where an Ethernet wire is OK), but where the signal from your main WAP (be that your router or a dedicated WAP) creates a stronger signal).  This can also be combined with the dedicated WAP.

Lastly, and most disruptive, but still the best signal performance is to use a hardware Ethernet connection
You might consider using a fibre channel Ethernet and FMC, as optical fibres can be thinner and easier to hide than an Ethernet cable.
However, cable or fibre, you'll need to route it around door architraves, along skirting boards and through holes in walls / floors / ceilings etc., routing it where it can't be seen, but always paying attention to the minimum bend radius.  (Consider cutting a thin channel into the corners of door architraves and skirting boards to 'round off the angle at the corners.)

Huge posted:

Lastly, and most disruptive, but still the best signal performance is to use a hardware Ethernet connection
You might consider using a fibre channel Ethernet and FMC, as optical fibres can be thinner and easier to hide than an Ethernet cable.
However, cable or fibre, you'll need to route it around door architraves, along skirting boards and through holes in walls / floors / ceilings etc., routing it where it can't be seen, but always paying attention to the minimum bend radius.  (Consider cutting a thin channel into the corners of door architraves and skirting boards to 'round off the angle at the corners.)

Sometimes simpler can be to exit through an external wall and run down/round outside of house before entering again, though for that you need to be comfortable with fitting, or have someone available who can fit, plugs on the cable end, or better still terminate with wall sockets.

At the risk of telling my grandmother how to suck eggs,, if DIY as well as suitably sealing around the canle, be sure to angle the drilled holes downwards towards the outside, and cable should drop from the exit points externally, meaning a smalll loop if it is then heading upwards.

Great suggestions, and food for thought. I have no doubts that my crummy, proprietary router plays into this; I would love to replace it with my own more robust model, but AT&T does not have a "modem only" option.

 I might still try the other app Huge because I find the Naim app very flakey once my phone has gone to sleep. It takes a long time to reconnect, and not infrequently it returns, and when I tab the UPnP icon, the song list is blank. The workaround is to go to back up in the menu, tab USB, then return to the UPnP, and the software has sufficiently reset itself to find the song list. It is a buggy bit of code, without question. (Android version is what I run.)

Hi Dr Mark,

It's very likely that you can turn off the wireless transceiver in the AT&T router.  You'd need to go to it's management page (typically 192.168.0.1 or 192.168.1.1) and then go through the pages - often this will be in a 'Advanced' section (but not always).

This will allow another WAP (which you can move around more easily) to work as the wireless transceiver for your network without the complication or expense of a WiFi mesh system (although mesh systems are best answer for wide area WiFi coverage).
I know S-i-S thinks well of the Ubiquiti Unifi series (and I believe this can be expanded into a WiFi 'mesh' system) but there are plenty of other good WAPs on the market.

I do recall looking at those units (the Ubiquiti Unifi) when SiS mentioned them, and then the 272 went into a period of relatively acceptable performance.

I looked at them on A-zon - are these wired to the router and then extended and mounted, or are they wireless extenders using both wireless input and then "pushing" the signal further?

Normally they'll be used wired to the router.  It's also useful to note that you can use them with PoE (Power over Ethernet) which allows them to have just one cable going to them for both Ethernet and the power they need.  To do this you use an Ethernet PoE injector.

The main advantages are that you can position them much more freely than the router (particularly if you use PoE), and that the WiFi signal they produce is of better quality and also stronger than most standard (cheapo!) broadband routers.

If I tried that approach, is there any particular PoE Injector that is recommended over any others?

DrMark posted:

If I tried that approach, is there any particular PoE Injector that is recommended over any others?

Sorry, no idea.

DrMark posted:

Great suggestions, and food for thought. I have no doubts that my crummy, proprietary router plays into this; I would love to replace it with my own more robust model, but AT&T does not have a "modem only" option.

 I might still try the other app Huge because I find the Naim app very flakey once my phone has gone to sleep. It takes a long time to reconnect, and not infrequently it returns, and when I tab the UPnP icon, the song list is blank. The workaround is to go to back up in the menu, tab USB, then return to the UPnP, and the software has sufficiently reset itself to find the song list. It is a buggy bit of code, without question. (Android version is what I run.)

I found that the app stability improved a lot when I split the dual bands of my router into separately named Wi-fi nets by adding 5 to the end of the shared name. Before that the iPad would switch too frequently. Although only 3 years old the iPad does not like 5Gb when the BT Hub 5 is in the same room. Now if I have a Naim Streamer it reconnects to very quickly. Before I had the issues of loosing the streamer.

Mark, I realise you are in the USA but similar principles apply. Glad to hear that the hardwired Ethernet has helped. The Naim streamers have such weak Wi-fi for SQ reasons that stability is important. I also threw away all the cheap switches and TP link EoPs which may not have helped for protocol reasons.

Just to show how good consumer TV’s are these days, I can stream to our bedroom TV from an iPad with both connected to a 2.4 Gb Access Point. Admittedly the ADSL Internet operates at near 24Mb/s. But Naim keep the Wi-fi weak for SQ reasons.

I moved the hub with a twisted pair style 5m ADSL cable to get good Wi-fi in the lounge. 15m is the limit. It’s easier to route a thin ADSL cable than Ethernet. It only cost £3 approximately, and the connectors go through 10-12mm diameter holes. Because the signal is not degraded much by the twisted pair the broadband speed hardly drops.

I’m very happy now with streamer and NAS connected to a refurbished Cisco 29608 tc switchtgat cost 64€ inc delivery. Great SQ.

Phil

DrMark posted:

If I tried that approach, is there any particular PoE Injector that is recommended over any others?

The Ubiquiti WAPs can be supplied by a POE switch, but if you're only going to use one or two, you may not want to bother adding a fancy POE switch that you don't otherwise need. For that reason, they are supplied with an adapter. This takes an Ethernet cable from your router, and a mains power lead, and combines them into a single Ethernet cable supplying both power and data to the WAP.  

Thanks as always to all - Chris - I would only use the one WAP - the house isn't that big, and only the Naim need be addressed as everything else works fine where it is; is there any particular I should get. I look on A-zon and always worry that it might be some cheap Chinese made junk, as happened to me a with a guitar pedal power supply that was so noisy as to be useless.

Mark, I was looking into replacing my aging Apple Airport networking devices, and was looking at the Ubiqiti Unifi APAC Lite as potential replacements. My knowledge of them is so far limited to a bit of online research on the back of recommendations from others. 

If you want a cheap alternative, the Apple devices can still be a good option, and there are always plenty of used ones on ebay. If you’re going to run just a single device, an Airport Extreme wired to your ISP supplied router would do it. 

The trouble is, the various options for curing wifi all require purchasing and setting up and trying out - with no certainty of success. If it were me I’d bite the bullet and do the hard wiring. 

Otherwise, before doing anything else,  temporarily move the 272 somewhere close to the wireless router and see if that fixes the problem. If you have a pair of headphones that would be very simple with no need to shift any other gear. If it works flawlessly there it may be worth pursuing the ideas to improve coverage in your listening room, otherwise I think you may be in for a lot of messing about with little or know improvement.

Meanwhile, and apologies if I’ve missed something, but have the previous problems when using the CD player resolved themselves? That issue previously seemed too much of a coincidence with the streaming problems and made me think that either might be something interfering with the 272’s performance such as very bad mains electricity supply or, conceivably, very high levels of RF from something nearby, or that the 272 itself may be faulty.

OK, a minor update on the CD/DVD issue - switching from digital coax to optical cable eliminated the static. So now the question for that aspect of the unit becomes one of is there something amiss in the 272 for digital coax input? While this appears to allow me to play discs, just accepting that the digital is messed up (if in fact, it is) is not an acceptable permanent situation, if for no other reason it means I cannot sell the unit were I to decide to.

This static has happened with 2 different cables and 2 different DVD players, so that seems to eliminate those variables. But what could be at issue with coax as input, and absent from the optical input? (And I used both digital coax choices over the many times I fettled with it.) One digital coax was not a good one, and the second was a decent one. I am reasonably certain they were both 75 ohms.

OK, I have just composed and sent an email to Naim support giving them all the info (and more)  on both issues that they requested when I called - will see what comes next.

Hopefully they will be able to assist and identify a solution - i am sure your feedback will be appreciated by all, in due course.

OK - emailed 2/25 & got the automated replies. Have not heard back from them since. Can't determine if they are really digging in to address my issues, or if I have fallen into the Naim support abyss.

Any suggestions? I don't know what to do if Naim is not going to respond. The automated responses said about 3 business days, and now it is 5.