Technical question - removing the preamp

cat345 posted:

<snip>

Chord's dac engineer Rob Watts advise not to use any amplification devices after the dac output for maximum fidelity. If that should be believed, why is Chord still selling mega buck preamplifiers?

Somebody somewhere is not telling the truth!

I didn't know that the Hugo (any flavour) or DAVE had enough output power to drive a set of loudspeakers to any practical level!

cat345 posted: 

Somebody somewhere is not telling the truth!

The is no “truth” in this case, only opinions and different methods of achieving what the designer considers “best”.

While I don’t mean this in any way derogatory... perhaps that is the difference between HiFi and PRaT; between listening to the equipment and listening to music.

Huge posted:

cat345 posted:

<snip>

Chord's dac engineer Rob Watts advise not to use any amplification devices after the dac output for maximum fidelity. If that should be believed, why is Chord still selling mega buck preamplifiers?

Somebody somewhere is not telling the truth!

I didn't know that the Hugo (any flavour) or DAVE had enough output power to drive a set of loudspeakers to any practical level!

Should have mentioned for headphone use... 

So, are preamplifiers only good for source switching or what? 

cat345 posted:

So, are preamplifiers only good for source switching or what? 

No, that’s why passive preamps are not favoured in Naim systems...

Eloise posted:

cat345 posted:

So, are preamplifiers only good for source switching or what? 

No, that’s why passive preamps are not favoured in Naim systems...

Active pre amplifiers also

1 Act a buffer amplifiers preventing the load and any back emf presented by the power amp form affecting the output of the source component.

2 Can be used to tailor the end-to-end signal of the pre-amp / power-amp pair to an acoustically more neutral rendering than is given by the power-amp alone.

3  Increase the power of the signal available thus relieving the power-amp of part of it's amplification duties.

4 Allow lower gain power-amps to be used that then have inherently higher noise immunity (particularly in terms of PSRR).

There are plenty of people running speakers directly off the Dave,with NO amp,just the 2 Watts that the DAC outputs.Google Omega Super Alinco moniters,they are high efficiency single driver speakers.The Dave allows you to run one or two powered subwoofers at the same time.

a well designed passive is just has good , volume pot, has to be sell designed  .number of inputs may be an issue  

audio1946 posted:

a well designed passive is just has good , volume pot, has to be sell designed  .number of inputs may be an issue  

Yes, sometimes, but the power-amp HAS to be specifically designed to be driven via a passive controller for it to work to the best that the power-amp can deliver.

Huge posted:

Eloise posted:

cat345 posted:

So, are preamplifiers only good for source switching or what? 

No, that’s why passive preamps are not favoured in Naim systems...

Active pre amplifiers also

1 Act a buffer amplifiers preventing the load and any back emf presented by the power amp form affecting the output of the source component.

2 Can be used to tailor the end-to-end signal of the pre-amp / power-amp pair to an acoustically more neutral rendering than is given by the power-amp alone.

3  Increase the power of the signal available thus relieving the power-amp of part of it's amplification duties.

4 Allow lower gain power-amps to be used that then have inherently higher noise immunity (particularly in terms of PSRR).

That partly satisfy my objective worries and explain my subjective ascertainment!

cat345 posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

cat345 posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Some DACs with volume controls - Dave is one, and IIRC also Hugo and TT - have appropriate HF removal filtering, and output impedance and source capability that is quite happy and  stable into power amps even with the relatively low 18kΩ impedance of Naim NAPs.

But indeed, whether individuals like the sound direct as opposed to through a preamp is personal, and it is oft said that the Naim NACs are responsible for the Naim sound - even when fed from a non-Naim DAC, presumable modifying the signal in some discernible way - so if that is what you crave then of course the preamp may be critical.

I tried to drive my 250 and a another (tube) amplifier directly from the Chord Hugo and in both cases I found the sound tiring after a few minutes.

IB, do you think that those who prefer using a preamplifier between a dac and the amplifier happen to like coloration  very possibly yes -  though that presumes no or negligible interaction between DAC and power amp causing adverse audible effect, and that of course is likely to vary between different DACs and between different power amps.

and the higher you go into the preamplifier hierarchy, the more sophisticated the colouration? Hmm, not sure , rather the preamps should be improving up the range, so less colouration as the compromises are tackled - unless the colouration is intended, and if the latter does apply I suppose it could become more refined.

 

I understand your logic but Naim has always considered the preamplifier and the amplifier as one amplification device. If you remove the preamplifier from the system why bother with a Naim amp in the first place?

Chord's dac engineer Rob Watts advise not to use any amplification devices after the dac output for maximum fidelity. If that should be believed, why is Chord still selling mega buck preamplifiers?

Somebody somewhere is not telling the truth!

Both are telling the truth.

If you use a Naim amplifier, follow Naim's advice.

If you use a Chord  amplifier, refer to Chord advice.

cat345 posted:

 

I understand your logic but Naim has always considered the preamplifier and the amplifier as one amplification device. If you remove the preamplifier from the system why bother with a Naim amp in the first place?

 

My understanding is that, unlike other manufacturers’ products, the Naim power amps do not use banks of parallel pairs of output transistors, claiming the parallell approach inevitably has an adverse effect. That to me would be a good reason to listen to one.

cat345 posted:

Chord's dac engineer Rob Watts advise not to use any amplification devices after the dac output for maximum fidelity. If that should be believed, why is Chord still selling mega buck preamplifiers?

Somebody somewhere is not telling the truth!

A preamp used with Dave would alllow selection of analog source or sources, a d often have additional line-level outputs useful for recording, or feeding to another room etc. Until Davina (Chord’s planned ADC) is available which might replace the need, a preamp is pretty much indispensible if you have analog sources.

analogmusic posted 

I understand your logic but Naim has always considered the preamplifier and the amplifier as one amplification device. If you remove the preamplifier from the system why bother with a Naim amp in the first place?

Chord's dac engineer Rob Watts advise not to use any amplification devices after the dac output for maximum fidelity. If that should be believed, why is Chord still selling mega buck preamplifiers?

Somebody somewhere is not telling the truth!

Both are telling the truth.

If you use a Naim amplifier, follow Naim's advice.

If you use a Chord  amplifier, refer to Chord advice.

 

It's not a matter of having to believe one advice over the other, I just want to understand why so I can make my own idea.

This preamplifier thing seem to be a taboo subject since the arrival of dacs having a volume control.

cat345 posted:

analogmusic posted 

Chord's dac engineer Rob Watts advise not to use any amplification devices after the dac output for maximum fidelity. If that should be believed, why is Chord still selling mega buck preamplifiers? 

 

I think you'll find Rob Watts, Nam and most other amplifier designers all agree with each other - as it fairly standard practice. The point about Chord Electronics is that they produce preamp stages in their DAC outputs such that they present a fixed impedance irrespective of attenuation. Naim typically provide this function in the NAC

Innocent Bystander posted:

cat345 posted:

 

I understand your logic but Naim has always considered the preamplifier and the amplifier as one amplification device. If you remove the preamplifier from the system why bother with a Naim amp in the first place?

 

My understanding is that, unlike other manufacturers’ products, the Naim power amps do not use banks of parallel pairs of output transistors, claiming the parallell approach inevitably has an adverse effect. That to me would be a good reason to listen to one.

cat345 posted:

Chord's dac engineer Rob Watts advise not to use any amplification devices after the dac output for maximum fidelity. If that should be believed, why is Chord still selling mega buck preamplifiers?

Somebody somewhere is not telling the truth!

A preamp used with Dave would alllow selection of analog source or sources, a d often have additional line-level outputs useful for recording, or feeding to another room etc. Until Davina (Chord’s planned ADC) is available which might replace the need, a preamp is pretty much indispensible if you have analog sources.

I hope this ADC/DAC thing does not become the only standard of the industry. I just want to enjoy my AAA records forever! 

cat345 posted:

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This preamplifier thing seem to be a taboo subject since the arrival of dacs having a volume control.

Taboo? Not that I’ve noticed! I guess far more people have and buy preamps than don’t, not least because they don’t have DACs with suitable output stages. Of those with such DACs I suspect a good proportion - maybe a good majority - do use preamps: either because they also have analog sources, or because they have compared with and without and decided that to their ears in their system with their choice of music with preamp sounds better, or because they haven’t realised they can omit the preamp, or even because they are so used to having a preamp that they are almost conditioned to it.

I understand Naim don't recommend using their amps with out their preamps - but Naim preamps can be used and are used quite effectively with other amps and active speakers. With Naim the NAC is an integral part of the power amp function. Intrigued about the taboo bit with Naim amps - a new one on me...

I’ve been intrigued by this for a while, having read rave comments about the Townshend Allegri. Swap the 272 for an NDS and slot the Allegri between it and the 300. One small box, no mains lead and miles cheaper than a Naim preamp and power supply. But no remote, and if it was that good, why aren’t more using it? I’ve always believed that the Naim preamp was an essential partner to their power amps, but maybe that’s just the inner sheep speaking. 

cat345 posted:

 

A preamp used with Dave would alllow selection of analog source or sources, a d often have additional line-level outputs useful for recording, or feeding to another room etc. Until Davina (Chord’s planned ADC) is available which might replace the need, a preamp is pretty much indispensible if you have analog sources.

I hope this ADC/DAC thing does not become the only standard of the industry. I just want to enjoy my AAA records forever! 

Nothing stopping you - you don't have to buy the latest and best: if you like what you’ve got then stick with it (but vinyl doesn’t stay pristine forever unless sealed up and unplayed!)

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I understand Naim don't recommend using their amps with out their preamps - but Naim preamps can be used and are used quite effectively with other amps and active speakers. With Naim the NAC is an integral part of the power amp function. Intrigued about the taboo bit with Naim amps - a new one on me...

The only reasons I’ve seen proposed for Naim not recommending using their power amps without one of their preamps are limiting HF, and possibly impedance matching - but as indicated some DACs like Dave have similar HF cutoff and impedance is fine. Does Naim advance any other reasons that I’ve missed?

Meanwhile I’m puzzled about the second point: in what way are Naim preamps any more a part of the power amp than the pre in any other pre-power combinations? And if the “part of the preamp” is a justifiable statement, how can people successfully use Naim preamps with other power amps when in effect the preamp inserts some part of a Naim power amp in between? (Or is it to do with the Naim Sound, missing without the preamp?)

As I understand it, the Naim preamp is not literally part of the power amp; it’s more that the preamp defines the operation conditions of the power amp. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’ve been intrigued by this for a while, having read rave comments about the Townshend Allegri. Swap the 272 for an NDS and slot the Allegri between it and the 300. One small box, no mains lead and miles cheaper than a Naim preamp and power supply. But no remote, and if it was that good, why aren’t more using it? I’ve always believed that the Naim preamp was an essential partner to their power amps, but maybe that’s just the inner sheep speaking. 

HH, similar thoughts here. Very intriguing concept and wondering how NDS/allegri/500 would deliver vs NDS/252/300.

Chrissw19 posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I’ve been intrigued by this for a while, having read rave comments about the Townshend Allegri. Swap the 272 for an NDS and slot the Allegri between it and the 300. One small box, no mains lead and miles cheaper than a Naim preamp and power supply. But no remote, and if it was that good, why aren’t more using it? I’ve always believed that the Naim preamp was an essential partner to their power amps, but maybe that’s just the inner sheep speaking. 

HH, similar thoughts here. Very intriguing concept and wondering how NDS/allegri/500 would deliver vs NDS/252/300.

Hi HH, Chris,

If I recall correctly, Martin Colloms and Jon Honeyball have tried exactly this set up and rate it as highly as an NDS/552DR/500DR.  Food for thought...

Might be of interest - https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...shend-allegri-preamp 

I was considering the Townshend Allegri, but couldn't seem to get a reply to my question about where I could hear and borrow a unit for home demo. That put me off a little, but in the end the biggest influence on the decision was that I didn't want to take any risks over system synergy; I knew that if I stuck with all Naim (albeit at a much higher price) there wouldn't be an issue.

The Townshend Allegri may be transparent and a good match with many amplifiers but it has autotransformers. As far as coloration is concerned is there any difference between this and a valve amplifier output transformer which is said to give a unique flavor to a tube amplifier sound?