Rock music sounds bland

Yes Agree with IB re room set up it can make or break a system especially if you are of the minimalist persuasion. 

Luckily we’re a bit more traditional when it comes to decor so although our room is quite small we have lots of soft furnishings, shelves with books and a big deep rug which all help. Lots of soft round edges are good where as hard corners and angles are not so good all IMO of course I’m no expert

Gasilver, I have my RP10 connected to a Superline and Naim pre/power.  Your Nordost Blue Heaven i/c may not be the best match.  Worth trying just the standard Naim RCA - DIN5 i/c (See FAQ or Chord alternative) in its place.  

Also, as Adam has suggested, what the RP10 sits on is important.

For all that, it may well be that if the problem affects both CD and LP then it's something more fundamental such as speaker/room issue or the speaker cabling.  Sometimes these things take a bit of time to get just right, so don't make any rash system changes for the moment and keep an open mind about optimising your current setup.

The CDX2 is known for excitement and involvement - if this doesn't do it for you with rock music then I'd find it unlikely the RP10 is the problem.

Richard Dane posted:

Gasilver, I have my RP10 connected to a Superline and Naim pre/power.  Your Nordost Blue Heaven i/c may not be the best match.  Worth trying just the standard Naim RCA - DIN5 i/c (See FAQ or Chord alternative) in its place.  

Also, as Adam has suggested, what the RP10 sits on is important.

For all that, it may well be that if the problem affects both CD and LP then it's something more fundamental such as speaker/room issue or the speaker cabling.  Sometimes these things take a bit of time to get just right, so don't make any rash system changes for the moment and keep an open mind about optimising your current setup.

Setup and cable dressing make a big difference:

-Keep power supplies/amps a good distance from pre and sources 

-Make sure interconnect cables etc don’t touch and get Burndy and ICs supple

- MC cartridges and phono stage are very sensitive, and need to be kept as far away from other boxes as possible

- good racks make a difference

-Dedicated radial is important and plug order can make difference.

These are often neglected by newbies, but make a big difference. You have superb sources, so get the best from them.

Phil

Fueller posted:

The CDX2 is known for excitement and involvement - if this doesn't do it for you with rock music then I'd find it unlikely the RP10 is the problem.

+1

I'd be looking at the amplification or speakers. They OB1's like a bit of poke and the 200 isn't really enough for these speakers. If you really like the OB1's then I'd look at improving the amplification and if sticking with Naim, a 282 (Hicap or Supercap) / 250 would be where I'd start looking as a minimum. If sticking with the 202/200, then take a look at the Kudos / Neat range which should deliver what you are looking for. Worth going to your dealer and having a listen to a few combinations to see what you find works for you and then go from there.

James

Gasilver,

Out of interest what pressings of Led Zeppelin albums do you have?

I used to have the orange/green labels of the mid/late 70's, replaced them with plum/red labels a dramatic improvement

The new remastered copies are even worse.

I doubt there is a significant problem with your system as when I had 202/200 Led Zeppelin didn't sound bland.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

Ps. If you can't find a decent vinyl copy then I'm afraid you may have to stick to CD. I have started to pick from Charity shops some LP's on CD that sound a bit sketchy on my deck I then rip them and put them on a usb stick.

 

However, I understood the OP to say he didn’t find rock music engaging through his CD player.

Regarding source vinyl quality, buy one of those LPs secondhand as an original first pressing - plenty available on a certain online aution site - and if that doesn’t sound as you expect then either it is your expectation that is out (but not so if it sounded ok at the dealer), or something in your system - and the fact that CD doesnt sound right concerns me. The system includes the room, as serious room effects can make music sound bad.

When it engaged you at the dealer, was the audition of it your system? If not, go back to dealer and listen with your system, taking whatever the dealer doesn’t have. If it sounds right there like it did when you auditioned the RP10 then its your room. If that is not easy, try playing with room layout, and/or get a copy of REW software (free) and a suitable measuring microphone and check the response. 

Or get the dealer to visit you and investigate.

He said he listened to Back in Black on CD and it sounded great.

A good system should make all music enjoyable. Tweaks are all well and good but its really a trip back to the dealers to sort a mismatched system.

Guinnless posted:

.

.

He said he listened to Back in Black on CD and it sounded great.

A good system should make all music enjoyable. Tweaks are all well and good but its really a trip back to the dealers to sort a mismatched system.

 

 

 

So he did I missed that, though previously he had said “I was really expecting that Led Zep, Foo Fighters, Kings of Leon, kasabian etc would pull me in and excite me - this has always been a problem I have found when listening to the CDX2 in my system”. you say, a good system should make all music sound enjoyable, though of course a poor recording can spoil some aspects of it - but surely those CDs can’t all be poor recordings lacking excitement?

Gasilver posted:

I’m using NACA5 speaker cable and jumpers on the binding posts. 

Ok. Well as long as the jumpers are properly made up then at least these can be eliminated as candidates for the bland sound.. You say the CDX2 is now singing so i guess this also confirms the cables are good.

I'd ask your dealer to pay you a visit and draw from their experiences and then go from there.

Would really take James N advice, pmc are 87db and 6ohm so not easy load and 200 not most powerful amp.

i noticed same with esp complex rock when undergunning on power vs speaker, and with more power and easy speaker its all punchy.

easy to test by demo of 250.2..

br Lars

On the CD side for now.

You should have a bunch of cables that came with the Naim kit, are you using them or the Nordost stuff? The Naim cables don’t look much but they won’t get in the way of the likes of LedZep.

How is your system arranged? Rack, etc and what else is plugged in nearby on the circuit, if you have switching mode power supplies nearby they could be contributing to the problem but it’s easy to test.

Once you have the CDs rocking turn your attention to the vinyl but if you can’t make a CDX2 rock there’s something wrong with the system or setup.

I think I agree with the camp questioning the pressings - I've had some stinkers and, it's no consolation, but my maxed out LP12 doesn't make them sound any better, if anything it shows up how bad they really are.  Suggestion: before you start tinkering with cables and amps play what you know to be a great rock pressing from the 70's or 80's.  May not be your cup of tea but I would use Joe Jackson's album  "I'm Your Man" (analogue) or Ry Cooder "Bob Til You Drop" (Digital recording). You can buy them inexpensively from a well known internet record marketplace (not Fleaby) for not too much.  They are both cracking recordings and sound extremely involving and exciting on my kit.

There is hope! If you look at the Burning Shed web-site and type in 'In Absentia' (Porcupine Tree) you'll see in the info:-

The album has been remastered by Steven Wilson and the 2017 master has features noticeably less compression and limiting in order to provide a more dynamic listening experience.  

Sounds promising. It's one of my favourite PT albums and my pre-order is in (release date 9th March). 'Deadwing' apparently receives similar treatment (with a 23rd February release date).

It's a shame that Steven Wilson's 'To the Bone' sounds as dead as a dead thing having a day out with the undertaker. Strange, when all SW's other recently remastered material sounds very good. If you're looking for a foot in the door with classic Porcupine Tree material, look no further than the 2016 remastered 'Stars Die' double CD compilation. Nearly 2½ hours of great music (superbly remastered) for only £8.99

To the OP - The RP10/Apheta is a very fine sounding turntable, but it does respond to isolation. Try a sheet of HDF or glass atop three nuts and ball-bearings. Cheap and generally very effective.

The Aria sounds a bit polite to me with some carts but it does seem to have  good synergy with the lively and incisive sounding Apheta.

To paraphrase previous good advice above; for the best sounding classic rock albums head over to Discogs and pay decent money for originals.

Good luck.

John.

rmatosev posted:

 You don't have to be an expert to apply this trick, You just need a cartridge scale. Put the tracking force dial on zero and adjust the tracking force by turning the dial until you reach the desired value on a digital scale.

I am afraid your problem lies somewhere else. As you climb on the audiophile ladder, you reach a higher level of resolution and transparency, but you can lose some emotion. And yes, bad pressings are ruthlessly revealed.

I also wonder if it is not better resolving power showing up the weakness in the recording. I have found similar, when certian rock tracks (Lenny Kravitz, Are you going my way, track=Sister; the use of wah wah being a good example) had lots of exciting distortion, only to disappear with an upgrade. Sometimes the benefits of the upgrade then dont really improve that specific recording until one or more changes get things into balance again and you can better hear the reality.

LarsDK posted:

Would really take James N advice, pmc are 87db and 6ohm so not easy load and 200 not most powerful amp.

i noticed same with esp complex rock when undergunning on power vs speaker, and with more power and easy speaker its all punchy.

easy to test by demo of 250.2..

br Lars

How on earth do sensitivity (which is pretty average) and a rated impedance which happens to be that for which most amps are rated, imply anything about how difficult a load the speakers are? What matters are things like the minimum impedance and perhaps cabinet damping of cone movement.

Terrific input everyone - not sure how to respond to it all! Tonight I have compared Foo fighters Sonic Highways on cd and vinyl. Both sound flat, but I did notice the cd was a lot brighter - not particularly in a good way but slightly more involving than the vinyl. I’m using standard Naim interconnects on the CD player so I think tomorrow I will Hook up the RP10 with a  Chord RCA to Din lead I have for my AV amp and see wether the Blue Heavens are surpressing things. 

I must emphasise that a lot of my vinyl does sound stunning. I got a copy of Paul Young’s No Parlez from a charity shop yesterday and the soundstage is unbelievable -so my system can’t be that off can it? 

Good shout on Steve Wilson J.N - love his stuff so will definitely check that out.

Thanks again all  

Gasilver posted:

Please help me- I feel I’m going a little mad and need some reassurance/advice!

Im now a proud owner of an RP10 with Apheta  hooked up to a Rega Aria phonostage, Nac 202, Nap 200 through PMC OB1’s. I upgraded from my Planar 2 after auditioning the RP10 with a similar system at my dealers’.

My dealer set up the RP10 at home and checked over the rest of my system. I’m generally blown away with the dynamics and musicality of most of my record collection- clearly more involving than my bare CDX2.

I didn’t listen to any “heavy stuff” either at the audition or when the dealer set the system up. I was really expecting that Led Zep, Foo Fighters, Kings of Leon, kasabian etc would pull me in and excite me - this has always been a problem I have found when listening to the CDX2 in my system.

However I am left feeling disappointed with these albums on the RP10- they sound so bland  and I can’t quite believe I’m getting such contrasting results  I understand the importance of getting good vinyl recordings/pressings but I don’t think this is the reason for my problems. 

On the assumption that my source and speakers are good enough to achieve the results I am after, do you think an upgrade on the pre and/ or the power amps will do the trick? Does anyone recognise this problem and has anyone been through this anxiety and come out the other end happy? Any thoughts gratefully received. 

Hi,

You mention that listening to Led Zep, Foo Fighters, etc, on your system does not excite you. That probably mean you have attended rock concerts or heard rock music on a system that performed to your expectations.  Remember what speakers provide that kind of sound?  IMO, if you want to be moved by loud hard rock, forget about skinny speakers with tiny 5-6 inches drivers and go for cubic inches and 10+ inches woofers.

Get yourself an audition of some JBLs. About 3 months ago, I picked up a nice pair of JBL 4311, and was shocked at just how good these are on Linn/Naim gear. JBLs sometimes aren't considered to be "audiophile" enough, whatever that is. All I know, is that JBLs make music sound live. I presently have a pair of 4312SE on loan as my main speakers, and they are a very large step up from the 4311 both in refinement and slam. The dynamics and transparency of these new generation JBLs are incredible.

The thing about JBL, is that they make no apologies for their cabinet dimensions; they just build the proper cabinet for the drivers they require. JBL understands that there is no replacement for displacement, so they tend to use nice big bass drivers. Twelve inches of JBL love. You just can't get the same quality of effortless bass with a 6" or 8" driver. But that translates into wife trouble in a lot of cases.

Not so in my case. My wife says "I like the short squatty look of the JBLs because that's the way speakers looked when I was growing up". Then she says "Now that's the way music should sound". This is my wife saying this...

So after selling the 4311s, and using the 4312SE for a couple of weeks, we are now awaiting the imminent arrival of new JBL 4429s. And my gal is fully on board. I'm a lucky dude.

So it will be LP12/52/250/Fraim/4429.

Try JBLs and you may find what you are looking for...

BBM

Monster posted:

Get yourself an audition of some JBLs. About 3 months ago, I picked up a nice pair of JBL 4311, and was shocked at just how good these are on Linn/Naim gear. JBLs sometimes aren't considered to be "audiophile" enough, whatever that is. All I know, is that JBLs make music sound live. I presently have a pair of 4312SE on loan as my main speakers, and they are a very large step up from the 4311 both in refinement and slam. The dynamics and transparency of these new generation JBLs are incredible.

The thing about JBL, is that they make no apologies for their cabinet dimensions; they just build the proper cabinet for the drivers they require. JBL understands that there is no replacement for displacement, so they tend to use nice big bass drivers. Twelve inches of JBL love. You just can't get the same quality of effortless bass with a 6" or 8" driver. But that translates into wife trouble in a lot of cases.

Not so in my case. My wife says "I like the short squatty look of the JBLs because that's the way speakers looked when I was growing up". Then she says "Now that's the way music should sound". This is my wife saying this...

So after selling the 4311s, and using the 4312SE for a couple of weeks, we are now awaiting the imminent arrival of new JBL 4429s. And my gal is fully on board. I'm a lucky dude.

So it will be LP12/52/250/Fraim/4429.

Try JBLs and you may find what you are looking for...

BBM

 

 

To that I would say PMC and ATC do speakers with 12” and 15”drivers, for those who want their music effortless and accurate - but they do the smaller driver ones because the public at large so often simply don’t have the space (and Naimophiles often regard them as mullets!)

i am torn between love for my PMC EB1s with their 10” drivers, and regret that I didn’t go for the even better MB2SE with 12” and better mid and top. Aside from about £3k difference in cost, a significant consideration was practicality - the EBi is much more manouvrable and easier to accomodate than the MB2, and in the end that swung it. But I will either replace the mid and treble units with some equivalent to the MB2 and convert to active, or i will build an MB2 clone: attemptes to do the latter will decide which.

Back to the OP, the PMC OB1 was a respectable speaker that did bass pretty well, and should not fail to deliver easonably with rock music, despite its smaller bass driver. But I don’t know enough about it to know if the 200 has adequate reserve and/or grip. A demo of, say, a 300  (or something completely different like a Bryston) would soon tell, but it still should not fail to engage even if less than ideal, which is why I wonder about the effect of the room.

Monster posted:

Get yourself an audition of some JBLs. About 3 months ago, I picked up a nice pair of JBL 4311, and was shocked at just how good these are on Linn/Naim gear. JBLs sometimes aren't considered to be "audiophile" enough, whatever that is. All I know, is that JBLs make music sound live. I presently have a pair of 4312SE on loan as my main speakers, and they are a very large step up from the 4311 both in refinement and slam. The dynamics and transparency of these new generation JBLs are incredible.

The thing about JBL, is that they make no apologies for their cabinet dimensions; they just build the proper cabinet for the drivers they require. JBL understands that there is no replacement for displacement, so they tend to use nice big bass drivers. Twelve inches of JBL love. You just can't get the same quality of effortless bass with a 6" or 8" driver. But that translates into wife trouble in a lot of cases.

Not so in my case. My wife says "I like the short squatty look of the JBLs because that's the way speakers looked when I was growing up". Then she says "Now that's the way music should sound". This is my wife saying this...

So after selling the 4311s, and using the 4312SE for a couple of weeks, we are now awaiting the imminent arrival of new JBL 4429s. And my gal is fully on board. I'm a lucky dude.

So it will be LP12/52/250/Fraim/4429.

Try JBLs and you may find what you are looking for...

BBM

 

 

Please, do report your findings when you get those astonishing 4429's!

Gasilver posted:

Please help me- I feel I’m going a little mad and need some reassurance/advice!

Im now a proud owner of an RP10 with Apheta  hooked up to a Rega Aria phonostage, Nac 202, Nap 200 through PMC OB1’s. I upgraded from my Planar 2 after auditioning the RP10 with a similar system at my dealers’.

My dealer set up the RP10 at home and checked over the rest of my system. I’m generally blown away with the dynamics and musicality of most of my record collection- clearly more involving than my bare CDX2.

I didn’t listen to any “heavy stuff” either at the audition or when the dealer set the system up. I was really expecting that Led Zep, Foo Fighters, Kings of Leon, kasabian etc would pull me in and excite me - this has always been a problem I have found when listening to the CDX2 in my system.

However I am left feeling disappointed with these albums on the RP10- they sound so bland  and I can’t quite believe I’m getting such contrasting results  I understand the importance of getting good vinyl recordings/pressings but I don’t think this is the reason for my problems. 

On the assumption that my source and speakers are good enough to achieve the results I am after, do you think an upgrade on the pre and/ or the power amps will do the trick? Does anyone recognise this problem and has anyone been through this anxiety and come out the other end happy? Any thoughts gratefully received. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i recommend you to buy original lps at discogs, you can have near mint or even mint from all over the world.  New remastered lps are very often cut from cds, and the sound is effectively bland.  Or you have true analog remasters from analogue productions and mobile fidelity, but not cheap.

I have 3 of the re-mastered Led Zep albums and none have impressed me when compared to my originals. I bought them in the belief that they would be as good or better than the originals but they aren't, sadly.

I play my vinyl through my LP12 with an Ittok/Troika/Naim chrome bumper pre/hi-cap/power amp set up with Tannoy speakers and have always enjoyed the results until these LZ albums. So much so, I will avoid any new re-mastered stuff unless I can be assured of the recording quality.

As an aside, I remember reading in Melody maker many moons ago that vinyl records were usually cut from several copy tapes made via the master and these copies were used at whichever pressing plant was making the records. So, as these copies were in turn copied, down the line as it were, so as to preserve the master tape, information slowly became lost through transfer. Much like photo-copying a photo-copy.

And for those who perhaps restore old cars for a hobby, using 'approved' reproduction panels from original tooling, dont be too surprised when they dont quite fit here and there. Stamping many thousands of say, front wings from an original stamper will inevitably wear the surface so the pressed panels shall slowly become larger. Same meat, different gravy!

May I suggest that those who are interested in current issue vinyl consider looking at the Steve Hoffman Music forum and Michael Fremer's Analog Planet. (Warning: the Hoffman forums can be both anal and spiky.) These sources significantly complicate the generalisations some are making here and provide a lot of information about sound quality on individual pressings. There are a number of production routes for vinyl between the extremes of 'cut from CD' and all analogue. There are those who will not accept any digital element in the chain but it is possible for LPs mastered from hi-res digital files  to sound very good  - an example being the Rolling Stones Decca/London pressings (in my opinion). However, there is no doubt that all-analogue production with modern equipment can sound stunning - the Beatles mono box perhaps being the outstanding recent example.

One also has to be cautious about other aspects of the reissue market. Sometimes the sound of reissues doesn't match the original albums because there has been remixing as well as remastering. I believe the Led Zeppelin reissues are a case in point, although I have none of those. There may also be problems with the accessibility and deterioration of tapes for albums over 50 years old.

'Cut from CD' is probably mainly the case with marginal companies that are breaching copyright or are exploiting the lapse of copyright in the EU. Beware, for example, of the cheap vinyl jazz reissue labels. More likely than 'cut from CD' is mastered from a digital file but not properly mastered for vinyl. However, it is possible to find good quality vinyl pressings for new music where care has been taken with the mastering and pressing - Calexico and Lambchop are examples in my experience.

" There may also be problems with the accessibility and deterioration of tapes for albums over 50 years old."

Exactly. I once read an article about Eddie Kramer [he did most/all of the Hendrix material amongst others, and he was tasked with re-issuing some Hendrix material from the master tapes. Trouble was, he was very concerned that the tapes could de-laminate and become ruined during the work. He opted to bake the tapes so as to make them supple, etc to withstand running through the machine once again and it worked. Had it not, as he said, the original master would be ruined with no chance of recovery. Once the work was completed, he commented that listening to the 'new' copy was liking listening before behind net curtains which were then removed to reveal notes that were not immediately noticeable before.

There was an interesting interview with him on the BBC 6 music channel some weeks back which might still be available on catch up. Well worth a listen to the man who did so much for not only Hendrix, but Led Zep, etc,etc.