Comrade Corbyn

Well I guess I have a relatively comfortable life, too, but I'll have a go at analysing the situation we face in Syria.

It has been at civil war for years. Assad and his regime have and continue to behave in ways that could amount to war crimes.  But he knows that if loses he faces death (like Saddam and Gaddafi) so no matter what he's going to carry on. And he is winning.  

We in the West know only too well that taking down a dictator in the middle east can actually make the whole situation worse (Iraq, Libya) and see the people of that country suffer even more than they did under the former despotic regimes.

However unlike Iraq and Libya, Assad has some powerful allies e.g. Russia and Iran.  The West knows that if they really wanted to remove Assad (and I don't think they really do because of the likely internal carnage that would follow), they risk conflict in the region with Assad's allies. They are not going to risk that. And that's to say nothing about the complications involving Turkey and the Kurds. 

So we watch and wring our hands and when Syrian civilians are killed with chemicals rather than bombs and bullets, we make a weak gesture of intervention which we signal in advance because we don't want things to escalate. 

I see only two ways forward which will lead to some relief for Syria and its people. First, await Assad's ultimate victory and accept the killings that will continue until that point. Alternatively, use diplomatic pressure on Assad's allies to pursue a political compromise in the region which involves stopping or much reducing the killing. This, of course, means accepting Assad.  

As far as I can see Corbyn is arguing for second of these. It might be distasteful. It might rather expose the impotence of the West in the situation. I for one think it the only practical way forward.  But, hey, why not label Corbyn as anti-British, a Russian stooge etc etc. After all, that's a lot easier than confronting the reality.    

Romi posted:

I get the impression Eloise you have had a comfortable life, please tell me if I am wrong.  All the clever arguments in the world can be theoratically thought out, but if one actual experiences certain regimes, conditions and understandings, then one owns opinion is formed more in a more practical way.

Well “comfortable life” is a relative term...

I am fortunate to be born in Britain, my upbringing was such my parents (one was a primary school teacher the other fitted clerical work around raising me and my sister) were able to provide to our needs, but there was never a flood of luxuries.  I was educated through the state school system, working hard to get a place at a red brick university studying engineering.  My interest in politics developed later.

I have experienced bullying and abuse in my life as a result of (what maybe called) life choices, but compared to less accepting countries I have been able to make the choice to live as I desire.  I’ve been the victim of (mildly) violent burglary twice.  So yes I’ve faced down bullies and deal with threats.

So compared with (say) the average Syrian ... yes very comfortable.  Compared with (say) Jacob Rees-Mogg or Boris Johnson not comfortable.

What any of this has to do with my views on the legal and moral position on air strikes on Syria I’ve no idea...

It is difficult to disagree with the summary of the terrible civil war in Syria by MDS.

The western political leaders know they have no chance of effecting large-scale changes.

But we do have an opportunity to intervene in a small way on humanitarian grounds over the use of chemical weapons and I think it is reasonable to do so.

Ray

I don’t know why anybody’s getting upset by the missile strikes on Syria, apart from the fact it’s embarrassing that the UK prime minister suggests it was a powerful deterent. Most of the country’s been raised to the ground during the past 7 years, I doubt the destruction of what was probably a couple of disused farm buildings is going to frighten anybody.

The buildings destroyed where of no importance to the Syrians, if they where, the Russians wouldn’t have given permission to the USA/UK/France to destroy them.

Meanwhile, during passionate and  animated debate in the HoC, shadow home secretary shows particular interest in her leaders engagement in PMQs.

Tony2011 posted:

Meanwhile, during passionate and  animated debate in the HoC, shadow home secretary shows particular interest in her leaders engagement in PMQs.

Her arithmetic abilities prove she has the attention span of a gnat!

By heck the chap next to her is giving it a good old swan neck.

Tony2011 posted:

Meanwhile, during passionate and  animated debate in the HoC, shadow home secretary shows particular interest in her leaders engagement in PMQs.

Perhaps she was finding out how Albert Thompson's cancer treatment was going ... oh yes thats right ... its not happening YET despite what Theresa May said!

Or is giving parliament wrong information now acceptable behaviour?

A couple of points on this:

TM is rightly embarrassed by the Windrush cock-up and has said she wants to "dispel any impression that my government is in some sense clamping down on Commonwealth citizens, particularly those from the Caribbean who have built a life here" and that '...those who arrived from the Caribbean before 1973 and lived here permanently without significant periods of time away in the last 30 years have the right to remain in the UK.' So Albert Thompson should get the treatment he needs and deserves shortly.

Clamping down on health tourism is something the Government should aspire to, albeit badly administered in this case. There was a TV programme regarding actual cases in one of the London hospitals last year and it clearly showed foreign nationals taking advantage of our generosity and the NHS Doctor's obligations under the Hippocratic oath, with unpaid bills reaching six figures in some cases. 

Ray

thebigfredc posted:

So Albert Thompson should get the treatment he needs and deserves shortly.

She's HAD 5 weeks!!!

She has no excuses - the "crisis" of those from the Windrush generation is a crisis of HER making.  She was Home Secretary when it was decided the protections for commonwealth citizens which existed in the 1999 Immigration Act was no longer needed.

It was under her tenure as Home Secretary which saw the leeway that immigration officers had was eroded so that the situation went from a benefit of doubt / balance of probability decision making process to a having to prove absolutely the right to remain in UK.

You said "TM is rightly embarrassed by the Windrush cock-up" ... but she has sat on it for a couple of months and it was only when it was being raised in The Sun and The Daily Mail that things started happening.  One might suspect Paul Dacre and Tony Gallagher are the ones in charge of government policy here.

thebigfredc posted:

A couple of points on this:

TM is rightly embarrassed by the Windrush cock-up and has said she wants to "dispel any impression that my government is in some sense clamping down on Commonwealth citizens, particularly those from the Caribbean who have built a life here" and that '...those who arrived from the Caribbean before 1973 and lived here permanently without significant periods of time away in the last 30 years have the right to remain in the UK.' So Albert Thompson should get the treatment he needs and deserves shortly.

Clamping down on health tourism is something the Government should aspire to, albeit badly administered in this case. There was a TV programme regarding actual cases in one of the London hospitals last year and it clearly showed foreign nationals taking advantage of our generosity and the NHS Doctor's obligations under the Hippocratic oath, with unpaid bills reaching six figures in some cases. 

Ray

 

 

 

May was right to apologise for the idiotic behaviour of the Border Force. However, Ray is 100% correct about health tourism. It did have to happen and it happened this morning to my wife. She has had an ear infection for a few weeks and decided that it was time to see the doctor, so she phoned the surgery first thing as that is when they release appointments for that day. She was told 5 minutes after opening hours that there were no appointments available and no-one could see her.

They suggested that a doctor might be able to phone her later in the day but as he would not be able to see in her ear she was not impressed. She was told to go to a walk in clinic and see a doctor she would not know and ultimately accepted that this was the only solution. The surgery did say that if there was a cancellation they would phone her back. Anyway, she went to the walk in clinic where she was seen by a nurse, not a doctor, and while she was away the surgery phoned to say that they had found her an appointment. Hopeless!

May has apologised for the Windrush people buy anyone without a legitimate reason to be in this country should be deported and if they wish to use NHS resources it should be made clear that payment must be made. Try getting free healthcare anywhere else in the world.

Eloise posted:

thebigfredc posted:

So Albert Thompson should get the treatment he needs and deserves shortly.

She's HAD 5 weeks!!!

You said "TM is rightly embarrassed by the Windrush cock-up" ... but she has sat on it for a couple of months and it was only when it was being raised in The Sun and The Daily Mail that things started happening.  One might suspect Paul Dacre and Tony Gallagher are the ones in charge of government policy here.

+1 from me, Eloise - what seems apparent is that TM's apology was elicited in the run up to the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting the following day - in other words, she decided that she could not deal with the blowback from the public furore over this issue of immigration from the Commonwealth, by trying to defend the indefensible. 

What is even more egregious is that Amber Rudd is picking up the flak for decisions made whilst TM was in charge of the Home Office, when the policies she formented quite deliberately created a hostile climate for immigration. It is clear that basic morality went out of the window at that time, so TM should be embarrassed, indeed mortified - I wonder what her karma will be...

Eloise posted:

Tony2011 posted:

Meanwhile, during passionate and  animated debate in the HoC, shadow home secretary shows particular interest in her leaders engagement in PMQs.

Perhaps she was finding out how Albert Thompson's cancer treatment was going ... oh yes thats right ... its not happening YET despite what Theresa May said!

Or is giving parliament wrong information now acceptable behaviour?

Give it a rest Eloise. As if Albert Thomson is the only victim of the NHS or any other government office. May apologised for events that started when Labour decided to destroy Windrush documents in 2009. The complications of a multicultural society with no proper id system is bound to cause issues. Don't want id cards then prove your UK entitlement is some other way, but prove it you should, or face consequences. This, of course, would apply to all.

Resurrection posted:

Give it a rest Eloise. As if Albert Thomson is the only victim of the NHS or any other government office. May apologised for events that started when Labour decided to destroy Windrush documents in 2009. The complications of a multicultural society with no proper id system is bound to cause issues. Don't want id cards then prove your UK entitlement is some other way, but prove it you should, or face consequences. This, of course, would apply to all.

Serious ... can you prove you've lived and worked in the UK all your life?  (Yes I know you said that you worked in EU for a time ... I'm asking hypothetically)

Yes Albert Thompson is one person ... so how many more people face similar situation?

OnIy wasn't "Labour decided to destroy Windrush documentation in 2009" ... it might have been a Border Force decision taken while Labour was in power, but the actual destruction took place in October 2010 after Conservatives took power.

(PS. I've never been really against ID cards ... but anyway weren't they a Labour scheme that the Tories dropped?)

Resurrection posted:

Ray is 100% correct about health tourism. It did have to happen and it happened this morning to my wife.

Give it a rest Resurrection ... your wife's story has nothing to do with health tourism or immigration generally.  Its a rant at best! 

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Give it a rest Eloise. As if Albert Thomson is the only victim of the NHS or any other government office. May apologised for events that started when Labour decided to destroy Windrush documents in 2009. The complications of a multicultural society with no proper id system is bound to cause issues. Don't want id cards then prove your UK entitlement is some other way, but prove it you should, or face consequences. This, of course, would apply to all.

Serious ... can you prove you've lived and worked in the UK all your life?  (Yes I know you said that you worked in EU for a time ... I'm asking hypothetically)

Yes Albert Thompson is one person ... so how many more people face similar situation?

OnIy wasn't "Labour decided to destroy Windrush documentation in 2009" ... it might have been a Border Force decision taken while Labour was in power, but the actual destruction took place in October 2010 after Conservatives took power.

(PS. I've never been really against ID cards ... but anyway weren't they a Labour scheme that the Tories dropped?)

Resurrection posted:

Ray is 100% correct about health tourism. It did have to happen and it happened this morning to my wife.

Give it a rest Resurrection ... your wife's story has nothing to do with health tourism or immigration generally.  Its a rant at best! 

Ha! Ha! I was born in India, but my birth was registered with the British Consulate in Madras. I worked for five years in Belgium way back in the 80s and when it came to claiming a pension I contacted the Belgian Pension authorities and you would be amazed at the information they had on me. Every day of work was registered as was all of my working life registered here in the UK so don't give me any more Socialist BS about innocent people having no footprint in a country for 30 or 40 years - not unless they are illegals.

Resurrection posted:

Ha! Ha! I was born in India, but my birth was registered with the British Consulate in Madras. I worked for five years in Belgium way back in the 80s and when it came to claiming a pension I contacted the Belgian Pension authorities and you would be amazed at the information they had on me. Every day of work was registered as was all of my working life registered here in the UK so don't give me any more Socialist BS about innocent people having no footprint in a country for 30 or 40 years - not unless they are illegals.

Then you are ignoring the problem.  UK Home Office will NOT look up tax records for example.  You have to provide information to them in the form of pay slips and P60s, bank statements, etc.  You were fortunate the Belgium authorities supplied the information ... but in the UK this is not happening.

As I say ... could YOU (independent of the government) provide evidence of each year you lived in a country?  Could you provide FOUR?  Not just your working life, but all through school.  For over 50 years?

I doubt many people born in the UK could provide such proof.

Its you that is talking BS over this.

(I didn't know you were born in India.  Born to British Parents and therefore a British Citizen since birth?)

I’m continually confused about protesting or shouting at the Government or Corbyn in respect of overseas conflicts or military build up and provocations,, cyber attack’s etc.Yet I see little protest against Syria for example. Or Iran. Or The Saudis. Or China. Or N. Korea.

Or The Russians on just about any subject you care to mention at the moment. Where are the mass demonstrations and placards outside Russian embassies around the world. Mind, having said that I might go dark for a little while now. And wear gloves.

Eloise posted:

Resurrection posted:

Ha! Ha! I was born in India, but my birth was registered with the British Consulate in Madras. I worked for five years in Belgium way back in the 80s and when it came to claiming a pension I contacted the Belgian Pension authorities and you would be amazed at the information they had on me. Every day of work was registered as was all of my working life registered here in the UK so don't give me any more Socialist BS about innocent people having no footprint in a country for 30 or 40 years - not unless they are illegals.

Then you are ignoring the problem.  UK Home Office will NOT look up tax records for example.  You have to provide information to them in the form of pay slips and P60s, bank statements, etc.  You were fortunate the Belgium authorities supplied the information ... but in the UK this is not happening.

As I say ... could YOU (independent of the government) provide evidence of each year you lived in a country?  Could you provide FOUR?  Not just your working life, but all through school.  For over 50 years?

I doubt many people born in the UK could provide such proof.

Its you that is talking BS over this.

(I didn't know you were born in India.  Born to British Parents and therefore a British Citizen since birth?)

I think I could easily give you 50 years of fairly detailed records about my wife and myself. all emanating from government. I might have to root about for O'Level, Higher and Sixth Year Study certificates. I'd rather not talk about university!

And yes, I was born in Ootacamund where the Indian Constitution was drafted and the laws of the holy game of snooker were all drawn up in the Ooty Club which I sneaked into on my 60th birthday. The original snooker table is still there. Believe me, the Indians have changed nothing in or about that club including the snobbery, their own now. 

JamieWednesday posted:

I’m continually confused about protesting or shouting at the Government or Corbyn in respect of overseas conflicts or military build up and provocations,, cyber attack’s etc.Yet I see little protest against Syria for example. Or Iran. Or The Saudis. Or China. Or N. Korea.

Or The Russians on just about any subject you care to mention at the moment. Where are the mass demonstrations and placards outside Russian embassies around the world. Mind, having said that I might go dark for a little while now. And wear gloves.

We protest against our government because they are our government.  By protesting there is a slim possibility that we may alter their mind even just a little.  Also the UK is supposed to be a democracy and a civilised nation so registering your disapproval is right and proper.

As for protests against Russia - its from Nov 2016 but there were hundreds of mannequins outside Russian embassy as part of protest into their actions in Syria.

Ah. A silent protest then.

Methinks we doth protest too little. Or summint.

Personally I think there is too much politics in Government.

Just to add to the above ... "We protest against our government because they are our government." We also protest because its a way of affirming that while they are elected by the people, not all the people agree with their policies.  "Not in my name" is a regular trope in any protest.

I completely agree ... there is too much politics in Government ... so if you'd all kindly lay down your opposition to domestic social polices which balance the needs of the many with a regulated capitalist mantra and join me in a more non-interventionist humanitarian lead foreign policy we can remove all politics :-).  (Last sentence intended in jest of course)

Eloise posted:

I completely agree ... there is too much politics in Government ... so if you'd all kindly lay down your opposition to domestic social polices which balance the needs of the many with a regulated capitalist mantra and join me in a more non-interventionist humanitarian lead foreign policy we can remove all politics :-).  (Last sentence intended in jest of course)

But that just takes so much effort.

Far easier to let them all bugger about and point fingers at each other while I have a nice Gin and Tonic.

Mind, coming home this evening I feel like protesting at the state of my lawn. It's a disgrace. I know who I blame...

JamieWednesday posted:

while I have a nice Gin and Tonic.

I can’t disagree there...

Mr Corbyn seems to have lost his voice of late...is he packing for his summer hols, is it a quiet time at Westminster or is he on the back foot over something....

He's probably just lying low like the rest of us, waiting for the political event of the week, the latest series of Dead Ringers .

(Friday at 6.30pm, R4)