Comrade Corbyn

All 3 also apply to me. But then I actually am a Czechoslovakian spy.

Oops, rumbled.

Will I have to show my birth certificate on live TV now?

I can provide some answers to your questions Huge as you seem puzzled by your  - I am a spy/I am not a spy - status:

'I drive a Skoda, does that make me a Czech spy?'

WTF

'I've visited Russia and met some Russians, does that me a Russian spy?'

Possibly, even today the UK and Russia do not have easy relations , although the precise answer to that question depends on the reasons and nature of your visit/meetings.

'I've visited America and met some Americans, does that make me an American spy?'

No.

All Comrade Corbyn needs to do is publish his Stasi files,  that'll clear it all up once & for all.   

Mike-B posted:

All Comrade Corbyn needs to do is publish his Stasi files,  that'll clear it all up once & for all.   

I didn't know that the East Germans ran spies for the Czechoslovak intelligence services!

Eloise posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

But let’s be clear about this if the Guardian or New Stateman or Mirror had an expose on a Redwood like character collaborating with the SA Apartheid regime they’d be doing exactly the same as the leeches in the Mail etc.   

Only The Sun (and later Times and Mail) don't have an expose on Corbyn collaborating with Czechoslovakian intelligence.  The evidence they have actually shows that Corbyn DIDN'T collaborate with Czechoslovakian, but they are repeating the half-truths from a disgruntled Slovak "spy" who has made some pretty wild, even fantastic, claims which do not hold up under scrutiny ... the kind of scrutiny that a half decent newspaper should be doing.

The most damming accusation is that Corbyn drew the spy's attention to an article in a newspaper - presumably Czechoslovakian intelligence, being (its claimed) second only to the KGB in Eastern Intelligence services, would read the newspapers.

As for Corbyn being a Soviet sympathiser - that doesn't particular hold up either.  He was anti BOTH US and Soviet Union.  He was a supporter of the Prague Spring uprising against the Soviet Union's rule over Czechoslovakia.

I agree entirely.  However, that a meeting(s) took place is also clear. All Jeremy Corbyn has to do is recall from his recollection the purpose and what happened.  Easy. 

@thebigfredc

It's not literal, it's called reductio ad absurdum.

Extrapolate an argument [ in this case 'Corbyn met a Czechoslovak spy therefore he must be a Czechoslovak spy (or a Russian spy )'  ] to it's logical conclusion to show that it doesn't really make sense.

As an example of where this type of rationale leads, one need look no further than McCarthyism in the USA (~1950-54)

Huge posted:

Mike-B posted:

All Comrade Corbyn needs to do is publish his Stasi files,  that'll clear it all up once & for all.   

I didn't know that the East Germans ran spies for the Czechoslovak intelligence services!

The SSD had fingers into everything from everywhere,  their files are legendary, I kid you not.   

Does any of this matter or is it just a smear for the sake of smearing?

Huge,

My understanding of 'extrapolation' is an educated guess by extending a trend or pattern to predict a future or unknown value/event. Its still a guess though or, put it another way, a distortion.

I like to keep things simpler: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck - its probably a duck ( or a collaborator if a person is meeting a servant of a hostile state).

Ray

thebigfredc posted:

My understanding of 'extrapolation' is an educated guess by extending a trend or pattern to predict a future or unknown value/event. Its still a guess though or, put it another way, a distortion.

You're right ... the Sun (and subsequently the Mail and the Telegraph) have extrapolated from a name in a Czech document referencing 3 meetings with someone who by their nature would be lying about their identity, a completely fictitious narrative!  Or to put it another way a distortion.  Or to put it another way a complete fantasy which fits their desired ends.

I like to keep things simpler: if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck - its probably a duck ( or a collaborator if a person is meeting a servant of a hostile state).

So as Corbyn doesn't have feathers, doesn't waddle and never quacks ... that means he isn't a duck despite meeting with a duck in the past.

Seems to me the right-wing press, and by extension their wealthy backers, are really running scared of Mr Corbyn, and are desperate to discredit him. There appears to be little actual substance to this story, but there in people's minds is now the idea he's a traitorous spy. 

In further news on this front... Corbyn says he was in Derbyshire on the day Jan Sarkocy claims he was meeting with Corbyn in Westminster - the day in question was also a Saturday making such a meeting unlikely.  http://www.independent.co.uk/n...ommons-a8221321.html

And if you're so worried about politicians meeting spies ... where's the investigation into what Theresa May might have been saying to Stanislav Yezhov?

Corbyn had previously admitted to meeting Sarkocy so was he telling the truth then or is he telling the truth now with this Derbyshire business?

Ironically the Yeznhov meeting was reported in the Telegraph.  In any event the meeting is surely on record albeit redacted?

From Wikipedia...

"Natalia and Irina Dubinin, daughters of then-Soviet ambassador Yuri Dubinin, are cited as indicating that a seemingly chance meeting of their father with Trump in the autumn of 1986, was part of Dubinin's assignment to establish contact with America's business elite and a determined effort by the Soviet government to cultivate Trump in particular."

Ergo, by the 'rationale' postulated in this thread, the current president of the USA is a Soviet spy!  This is particularly apposite as in this case the 'cultivation' was a declared intent, whereas with Corbyn, the purpose of the meeting is unknown.

Sorry, I still don't buy it; either for Trump or for Corbyn (even though I don't like either of them!).

thebigfredc posted:

Corbyn had previously admitted to meeting Sarkocy so was he telling the truth then or is he telling the truth now with this Derbyshire business?

He admits to meeting a Czechoslovakian diplomat who's real identity is likely to be Sarkocy.  Its the number and frequency of these meeting which is in doubt and the importance of those meetings. 

However the point is that if some of the meetings are "impossible" to have happened, it casts doubt on the veracity of other information that Jan Sarkocy reported back to his superiors.  But you (alone with the Sun, Mail and Telegraph not to mention the Prime Minister specifically and Conservatives generally) have Corbyn tried and convicted of treason off the back of information supplied by a low-level spy who's reliability is dubious!

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Ironically the Yeznhov meeting was reported in the Telegraph.  In any event the meeting is surely on record albeit redacted?

Well technically speaking she didn't say anything to Yeznhov (yes despite what I implied above) as he was the interpreter for the Ukrainian Prime Minister.  The "suggestion" would be that everything May said to the Ukrainian Prime Minister was reported to the Russians.

Eloise posted:

<snip>

Conservatives generally) have Corbyn tried and convicted of treason off the back of information supplied by a low-level spy who's reliability is dubious!

<snip>

Hang on a mo...    I'm generally conservative and I'm defending him here!

It’s only a matter of time before Jezza reaches for his  trusty sword of integrity and shield of truth. It didn’t end well for Jonathon Aitkin though. 

Huge posted:

Hang on a mo...    I'm generally conservative and I'm defending him here!

I was meaning Conservative MPs and politicians (I can look up a list of specific individuals if you wish) rather than general supporters.

thebigfredc posted:

It’s only a matter of time before Jezza reaches for his  trusty sword of integrity and shield of truth. It didn’t end well for Jonathon Aitkin though. 

I was unaware of Jeremy Corbyn appearing in court and lying...

Fascinating stuff and I look forward to seeing how this plays out over the coming days and weeks. If it transpires that he accepted money then I think he will be done for. 

The Trabant in his lockup will give the game away

I see Mr Corbyn is suing the Tory MP who's posted a defamatory Twitter about this. 

I would just like to caution members here. Please bear in mind what happened when discussion about another politician got overheated (see the sticky at the top of the Padded Cell if you're not sure what I'm talking about). So let's keep calm, avoid making any undue aspersions, and not jump to conclusions until the full facts are known. 

Richard Dane posted:

I would just like to caution members here. Please bear in mind what happened when discussion about another politician got overheated (see the sticky at the top of the Padded Cell if you're not sure what I'm talking about). So let's keep calm, avoid making any undue aspersions, and not jump to conclusions until the full facts are known... 

PS: Also, just remember that it is perfectly acceptable to talk exclusively here in this forum about UK politics while discriminating against Americans and others with an open mind while defending Socialism and other such topics carte blanch. 

PSS:  Just testing the humour capacity or possible lack of it here.  This message brought to you exclusively by your local Macedonian content farmers union. 

Richard, isn't it about time to be fair and let discussions about all valid topics return?  Rather than threaten to ban those who hold a view on any subject (non-UK endorsed) as in any normal discussion.  Why not just hold those who can't behave or control their language or tempers accountable for themselves rather than punish the lot ?  

Corbyn is just another politician. He, like all the rest will talk the talk and walk the walk, until a wheel comes off and then shall blame the opposition. Our political system is flawed, filled with self serving people who care little for the real working man [or woman, for the sake of balance]

My advice? Stick to listening to the music you enjoy and ignore the rest of the daily diatribe from ALL the press and radio broadcast. AKA as sticking your head in the sand. Works well for me anyway :-)