Comrade Corbyn

MDS posted:

I find Corbyn's long-term anti-EU position hard to square with his more recent assertions

With respect ... isn't this comment akin to the Prime Minister complaining about Russian influence on UK politics while her party accepts unfettered donations from those very Russians she is commenting about.  When Corbyn raises this point, he is accused of playing "Party Politics" rather than people recognising he is raising specific points of policy which could improve how we secure British politics.

Hmack posted:

.............  I hope the one thing on which we might agree is that the UK must act with its allies to ensure that Putin cannot get away with what appears to be a blatant attempt to silence his critics wherever they might reside.     

An interesting watch (for UK viewers) tonite,  Panorama on BBC @ 19:30 ........... John Sweeney reports on the forthcoming Russian presidential elections, in which victory for Vladimir Putin appears to be a foregone conclusion. Sweeney investigates allegations that the Kremlin has subverted democracy in Russia and meets the Putin opponent who has been banned from the election.   

MDS posted:

Yes. Good points, Lindsay. I find Corbyn's long-term anti-EU position hard to square with his more recent assertions about retaining protections for workers' rights. Surely that is harder to achieve by leaving when the UK is on its own rather than being part of a huge economic block.

Mike

I don't think it's harder to achieve outside the EU.  Outside the EU JC could much more easily shift our economy back to a high tax / high spend / high inflation regime similar to that of the 1970s.  This appears to be his objective.

The situation can remain stable for a period of time before the corrective processes of international trade wreak havoc on our economy once more, and policy will then have to be abandoned.  (The subsequent forced austerity resulting from a collapsed national economy will make the current situation look like a minor inconvenience and will be further compound by the likely relative slowing of our economy post-brexit.)

Resurrection posted:

"....you would also happily cast your vote for, IMHO, probably two of the nastiest extremists, Corbyn and McDonnell, to infest Parliament since Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness" 

Perhaps you should replace your use of the acronym 'IMHO' with IMO in future. Your point of view and the way you regularly express it on this forum does not sound very humble to me at all.

By implication you attempt to portray me as a racist because I potentially align myself with a party led by Vince Cable!  Absolutely astonishing given your earlier response to someone (not me) who had the temerity to post "not all those who voted Brexit are racists, but all racists surely voted for Brexit". You question my "unpatriotic logic" ! I simply cannot apply the word "logic" to your reasoning on this one. 

Apparently, I have a paranoia of the Conservative party, and an "unpatriotic logic" for not supporting them. In fact I suspect you believe that I and others are "unpatriotic" simply for not supporting some of your more extreme views on the EU in general and Brexit in particular. Perhaps you should look a little closer to home for evidence of paranoia.  You may choose to believe this or not, but I have a number of very good friends who are supporters of the Conservative party. They still remain good friends even though our political standpoints differ. The truth is simply that the fundamental policies of the Conservative party do not align with my views of fairness in Society (such an 'airy fairy' concept I know) and so I cannot conceive of any possibility of voting for them - no more nor less than that. Others feel differently about Conservative policies, and they are perfectly entitled to their opinions and their votes.

Now, this will no doubt really annoy you, but I am about to patronize you.

Many of your posts on this and other threads would indicate that you are well educated and very literate. Some of your posts are very amusing, even if the barbs they contain are aimed at me and others who do not agree with your view of the world. On the other hand, some of your rhetoric throughout this thread is more worthy of the right wing gutter press or the views of those xenophobes and racists on the extreme right of the Brexit argument. 

"Commie Corbyn also seems to have been falling over himself to avoid any words of recrimination for Putinfurther nailing the traitor's colours of allegiance "  

"our politicians have allowed the country to be the "dustbin for a significant proportion of the detritus of the world",

 Unlike some of your previous posts, these statements are neither witty nor amusing. They are just plain nasty.

Do they truly reflect your views, or are they simply an amusing little distraction for you, and designed to wind some of us up?    

Hmack posted:

Resurrection posted:

"....you would also happily cast your vote for, IMHO, probably two of the nastiest extremists, Corbyn and McDonnell, to infest Parliament since Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness" 

Perhaps you should replace your use of the acronym 'IMHO' with IMO in future. Your point of view and the way you regularly express it on this forum does not sound very humble to me at all.

By implication you attempt to portray me as a racist because I potentially align myself with a party led by Vince Cable!  Absolutely astonishing given your earlier response to someone (not me) who had the temerity to post "not all those who voted Brexit are racists, but all racists surely voted for Brexit". You question my "unpatriotic logic" ! I simply cannot apply the word "logic" to your reasoning on this one. 

Apparently, I have a paranoia of the Conservative party, and an "unpatriotic logic" for not supporting them. In fact I suspect you believe that I and others are "unpatriotic" simply for not supporting some of your more extreme views on the EU in general and Brexit in particular. Perhaps you should look a little closer to home for evidence of paranoia.  You may choose to believe this or not, but I have a number of very good friends who are supporters of the Conservative party. They still remain good friends even though our political standpoints differ. The truth is simply that the fundamental policies of the Conservative party do not align with my views of fairness in Society (such an 'airy fairy' concept I know) and so I cannot conceive of any possibility of voting for them - no more nor less than that. Others feel differently about Conservative policies, and they are perfectly entitled to their opinions and their votes.

Now, this will no doubt really annoy you, but I am about to patronize you.

Many of your posts on this and other threads would indicate that you are well educated and very literate. Some of your posts are very amusing, even if the barbs they contain are aimed at me and others who do not agree with your view of the world. On the other hand, some of your rhetoric throughout this thread is more worthy of the right wing gutter press or the views of those xenophobes and racists on the extreme right of the Brexit argument. 

"Commie Corbyn also seems to have been falling over himself to avoid any words of recrimination for Putinfurther nailing the traitor's colours of allegiance "  

"our politicians have allowed the country to be the "dustbin for a significant proportion of the detritus of the world",

 Unlike some of your previous posts, these statements are neither witty nor amusing. They are just plain nasty.

Do they truly reflect your views, or are they simply an amusing little distraction for you, and designed to wind some of us up?    

Yep, these are my views. Commie Corbyn IMHO is a Traitor. 

It seems odd that we cannot make negative comments about the US president, yet the Forum can be used happily for people to abuse the leader of the UK Opposition and to express views that could be taken as racist and xenophobic. I find it rather sad.

Hungryhalibut posted:

It seems odd that we cannot make negative comments about the US president, yet the Forum can be used happily for people to abuse the leader of the UK Opposition and to express views that could be taken as racist and xenophobic. I find it rather sad.

HH,

As for Corbyn, his nasty anti-Semitic version of the Labour Party as well as his alignment with very disagreeable  regimes around the world, from Russia, to Cuba to Argentina seems to be invisible to those of  you 'supporting' his cause. You personally may be Labour to the bone but Corbyn and McDonnell are simply using this vehicle as a means to impose Communism via Momentum, their party within a party.   

I think care is needed here Nigel.  I foe one in my criticisms of Jeremy Corbyn have stopped well short of being abusive.  

I am monitoring this thread.  Some comments are flying pretty close to the edge, so I would encourage some degree of moderation in the language used.  However, as it is personal opinion not entirely devoid of reasoned argument then I have allowed some leeway. In particular could members please be careful not to make judgements on other members, as this would indeed fall foul of forum AUP.  Thank you.

Jeremy Corbyn is no more a Communist than Teresa May is a Fascist.
In the wider scheme of things, they are both fairly moderate - we simply don't have real extremes in mainstream British politics.

Richard Dane posted:

I am monitoring this thread.  Some comments are flying pretty close to the edge, so I would encourage some degree of moderation in the language used.  However, as it is personal opinion not entirely devoid of reasoned argument then I have allowed some leeway. In particular could members please be careful not to make judgements on other members, as this would indeed fall foul of forum AUP.  Thank you.

If this arrogant Icarus flies too close to the sun Richard will be the first one to know and clip his wings, which will unfortunately be a missed opportunity for some. ????

Resurrection posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

It seems odd that we cannot make negative comments about the US president, yet the Forum can be used happily for people to abuse the leader of the UK Opposition and to express views that could be taken as racist and xenophobic. I find it rather sad.

HH,

As for Corbyn, his nasty anti-Semitic version of the Labour Party as well as his alignment with very disagreeable  regimes around the world, from Russia, to Cuba to Argentina seems to be invisible to those of  you 'supporting' his cause. You personally may be Labour to the bone but Corbyn and McDonnell are simply using this vehicle as a means to impose Communism via Momentum, their party within a party.   

I was more concerned about your comments on the U.K. being a dustbin for a significant proportion of the world’s detritus. I’d welcome reassurance that this isn’t racist or xenophobic.  Who exactly do you consider to be ‘detritus’?

The troll from the Diskworld!

Huge posted:

I don't think it's harder to achieve outside the EU.  Outside the EU JC could much more easily shift our economy back to a high tax / high spend / high inflation regime similar to that of the 1970s.  This appears to be his objective.

Alternatively we can have the low tax / low spend / high inflation regime the Tory's have as their objective.

Given the UK currently have average to low tax burden compared with the rest of the "developed" world, perhaps we can afford to pay a bit more tax to keep social services functioning ... or at least try to spread some of the wealth downwards so that everyone can afford a reasonable standard of life.

Resurrection posted:

As for Corbyn, his nasty anti-Semitic version of the Labour Party as well as his alignment with very disagreeable  regimes around the world, from Russia, to Cuba to Argentina seems to be invisible to those of  you 'supporting' his cause.

About as invisible the support for other "disagreeable regimes" such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey, unquestioning support of Israel and accepting money from questionable sources in Russia is to those who "support" the Tories.

Your claims against Corbyn only hold up if you selectively quote.  He has always held nuanced views which have at times questioned the belief that everything the "West" does is right and good, and everything in the "East" is bad.  The problem is politics and the media can't handle that.

Resurrection posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

It seems odd that we cannot make negative comments about the US president, yet the Forum can be used happily for people to abuse the leader of the UK Opposition and to express views that could be taken as racist and xenophobic. I find it rather sad.

HH,

As for Corbyn, his nasty anti-Semitic version of the Labour Party as well as his alignment with very disagreeable  regimes around the world, from Russia, to Cuba to Argentina seems to be invisible to those of  you 'supporting' his cause. You personally may be Labour to the bone but Corbyn and McDonnell are simply using this vehicle as a means to impose Communism via Momentum, their party within a party.   

How is Corbyn anti-semitic, please don't confuse support for the Palestine and criticism of Israeli regime which the majority of the mainstream press and anti corbyn Labour MP's so conveniently use as anti-semitic.  This is the main problem within the Labour Party so much so they will suspend Jewish people for being anti-semitic if they speak out against the Israeli regime!

Eloise posted:

Huge posted:

I don't think it's harder to achieve outside the EU.  Outside the EU JC could much more easily shift our economy back to a high tax / high spend / high inflation regime similar to that of the 1970s.  This appears to be his objective.

Alternatively we can have the low tax / low spend / high inflation regime the Tory's have as their objective.

 

<snip>

"low tax / low spend / high inflation"...  that doesn't make any sense what so ever.

I believer you are a Labour Party supporter?  Then look at the Keynesian economic model to which the Labour party claim to subscribe * - you'll see that low tax / low spend can't result in high inflation relative to the general international economic environment.

*  The Labour party subscribe to one half of the Keynsian model, the Tories subscribe to the other half; unfortunately, between them they can't manage to co-ordinate the switch over in synchronisation with the necessities imposed by swings of phase in the performance of the global economy.

Oh dear, soooo many puns available here...

Hungryhalibut posted:

Resurrection posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

It seems odd that we cannot make negative comments about the US president, yet the Forum can be used happily for people to abuse the leader of the UK Opposition and to express views that could be taken as racist and xenophobic. I find it rather sad.

HH,

As for Corbyn, his nasty anti-Semitic version of the Labour Party as well as his alignment with very disagreeable  regimes around the world, from Russia, to Cuba to Argentina seems to be invisible to those of  you 'supporting' his cause. You personally may be Labour to the bone but Corbyn and McDonnell are simply using this vehicle as a means to impose Communism via Momentum, their party within a party.   

I was more concerned about your comments on the U.K. being a dustbin for a significant proportion of the world’s detritus. I’d welcome reassurance that this isn’t racist or xenophobic.  Who exactly do you consider to be ‘detritus’?

Tsk! Tsk! You mean to say that all the people who have attempted to blow us up as well as themselves, or poison people or strangle them or foment and incite hatred within this country from whatever end of the spectrum you wish to choose are not detritus? I, as a right winger, am not fomenting hatred of anyone but am not happy to have anything I say or do that condemns those that execute hatred within my country being levelled as xenophobia or racism. 

Huge posted:

"low tax / low spend / high inflation"...  that doesn't make any sense what so ever.

It might not make sense ... but its the route they are heading towards ... or at least relatively high inflation as in inflation which is higher than wage growth!

It was intended as a general critique on how the Tory's economic plans over the last 8 years have hardly given the results they claimed to want.

I believer you are a Labour Party supporter? 

Actually more of a Liberal supporter though not a member of any particular party and try to examine and measure their policies against what I consider my own socialist / capitalist balanced moral philosophy.  Neither is completely the right philosophy; social improvement cannot happen without a good capitalist market however unfettered capitalism precludes social justice and equality.

As for the Keynesian model ... as I understand it (and I may be showing my lack of knowledge here) between the parties (and how the country vote) they have it all about face ... in times of good growth we need the Tory model of reducing borrowing and spending, in times of recession you have to increase spending (particularly investment type spending) and risk increasing borrowing.

Generally, despite the reputations, I think both parties are as economically illiterate as each other - neither actually have economic policies they have economic doctrine they follow.

Eloise posted:

Huge posted:

"low tax / low spend / high inflation"...  that doesn't make any sense what so ever.

It might not make sense ... but its the route they are heading towards ... or at least relatively high inflation as in inflation which is higher than wage growth!

I believer you are a Labour Party supporter? 

Actually more of a Liberal supporter though not a member of any particular party and try to examine and measure their policies against what I consider my own socialist / capitalist balanced moral philosophy.  Neither is completely the right philosophy; social improvement cannot happen without a good capitalist market however unfettered capitalism precludes social justice and equality.

As for the Keynesian model ... as I understand it (and I may be showing my lack of knowledge here) between the parties (and how the country vote) they have it all about face ... in times of good growth we need the Tory model of reducing borrowing and spending, in times of recession you have to increase spending (particularly investment type spending) and risk increasing borrowing.

Generally, despite the reputations, I think both parties are as economically illiterate as each other - neither actually have economic policies they have economic doctrine they follow.

It may appear that the Tories are pursuing a high inflation policy, but that's a mis-reading of the situation; the policies they are pursuing limit inflation growth to a level below that which would occur in a higher taxation regime.  True, price inflation is greater than wage inflation, but in a higher taxation environment, the difference would actually be even greater.

Yes, you've understood the problem with how the main parties apply the Keynsian model...  It's that each of them dogmatically applies one half of the Keynsian cycle without considering switching to the other half, and the lack of co-ordination of the change over with changes in the global situation (it only occurs after a general election when the political regime changes over).

There is one point you've missed though.  Initially in a recession you stimulate growth by spending, but you have to ensure that the resultant debt doesn't significantly impact the ability of the economy to recover rapidly when the economic situation again becomes more favourable.  To limit this requires that the debt is not allowed to exceed GDP and deficit must not exceed a small proportion of the economy's fixed costs.  When these thresholds are reached, the economy must be switched from stimulus to austerity, even in a recession.

Resurrection posted:

Tsk! Tsk! You mean to say that all the people who have attempted to blow us up as well as themselves, or poison people or strangle them or foment and incite hatred within this country from whatever end of the spectrum you wish to choose are not detritus?

You realise that since 2012/13 period ... over 70% of the "terrorist" related arrests have been arrests of British nationals?

Eloise posted;

'Given the UK currently have average to low tax burden compared with the rest of the "developed" world...'

It didn't seem like it when I worked overtime on Saturday as I will be taxed at 40% and National Insurance  will take a further 2%.

Ray

thebigfredc posted:

Eloise posted;

'Given the UK currently have average to low tax burden compared with the rest of the "developed" world...'

It didn't seem like it when I worked overtime on Saturday as I will be taxed at 40% and National Insurance  will take a further 2%.

It may not seem like it Ray... but it’s still true.

For 42% of anybody's earned income to go straight to the State should be cause enough for right-minded people to pick up their pitch-folks and lanterns and head to the Houses of Parliament for a cull of the ruling elite.

We are far too docile in the UK.

thebigfredc posted:

For 42% of anybody's earned income to go straight to the State should be cause enough for right-minded people to pick up their pitch-folks and lanterns and head to the Houses of Parliament for a cull of the ruling elite.

Yet you likely still pay a smaller proportion of your overall income in tax* than someone who is in the bottom 20% of incomes...

*taking into account all direct and indirect taxation including income tax, National Insurance, VAT, council tax, etc.