New NAP 300DR Underwhelmed

Hi Rooster, far from it. The original 250 was designed with the Briks as a system by JV as no other amplifier was up to their punishing high to very low impedance loads.

He and Linn worked hand in glove in those days. In fact the 250 for quite a few years was the only amplifier capable of driving the Briks. From 74-86 the LP12 Naim 32 hicap 250 Briks were the reference system.

There was a parting of the ways once the SBL’s were introduced and Linn introduced the LK1-2 Amps. When the DBL’s were introduced, Naim were truly at the top of the tree and IMO still are in regards to amps. With Naim focused on PRaT and Linn on Tune-dem. The two are different paths to similar goals. I much prefer the boogie factor of PRaT to simple tune dem.

cheers

Godfrey

Naim Guy posted:

I came home yesterday with a brand new 300DR. Sadly it’s been a disappointment. I expected it to slam dunk my old CB250 but whilst it’s better In the way adding a Radikal replacing a Lingo in an LP12 would be, it’s no more powerful than the 250. I was hoping for some real power and impact. But every time I go back to the 250 I just think wow this old girl is still a real corker of an amp.

Perhaps it’s because it’s been factory tuned to drive my Isobariks and every service I make sure that the service guys know that.

I have a week to change my mind. Am I missing something here chaps.

thanks

Godfrey

system is LP12 - 52 - Supercap - 250 - Linn Isobariks.

I think you should expect better noise floor, better control, better detail - the 300DR is a super amp.. However, you are going to be super disappointed if you expect it to sound more "powerful" or loud. It is maybe 50% more powerful than your CB250. You have to double the power of an amp to gain 3db which is right about where the human ear can tell. To double the percieved power or loudness you have to increase the power by 10x. 

That's it then I'm sticking with my CB250 from 1985, just recently serviced and sounds superb, this thread is going to save me a shed load of money £££££££££££££££££ 

Happy you are spot on! That sums it up precisely. I had hoped the 300DR would be a thumper whereas it is more natural, musical and easy to listen to. If I turn the dB’s up to ear punishing levels ie at 11:00 it makes no difference to the 300 whereas the 250 is close to its edge. But I listen more like the pot at 9:00. And it’s at this level I was expecting the 300 to deliver more oomph. 

Ill keep you all posted how it goes.

regards

Godfrey

my dealer, main naim dealer in Paris, prefers the sound of the 250 vs 300, with not difficult driving speakers.  He finds it more musical.  

With my apertura speakers ( 92 db) , i made a demo with nap 300 vs 250: the 300 gives a little better details, was a bit more open and the bass had more presence.  But the 250 was more visceral on some tracks and more involving ( on some tracks).  I finally choosed the 300dr, but could be happy with the 250.    I choosed the 300dr also in order to drive bigger speakers one day....

Naim Guy, it’s not a thumper. It’s much more subtle, and it will take months. Sit it out, if you can.

just persevere for 4-6 weeks. My NAP300DR was painful to start with (and I moved from NAP250DR). The first great moment appeared after few days...

French Rooster posted:

perhaps the 52 supercap with nap 300dr is not a magical pairing ?

Having had that combo at home I can say nope. 52 /300 works wonders and smashed my 250.2

Adam, thanks for replying.

the 300 is far from painful. In fact it’s lovely. It’s just I was expecting more oomph. But there are days to go yet.

The 'oomph' arrived for my NAP 300 after several weeks. Suddenly I realised I was getting bass and control I have not heard before with NAP250.

It of course also depends on one's definition of 'oomph' 

In terms of power, and hence sound level capability, the 300 is 90W into 8Ω vs 250’s 80W continuous, or 500VA vs 400VA maximum peak. That is 12.5% more continuous power capability and 25% more peak power capability. *

in terms of maximum deliverable sound level, that is an increase of 0.5dB continuous, and 1dB  maximum peak. 1bB is often described as the smallest increase in sound level that one can distinctly distinguish, 0.5 being barely perceptible.

In other words, in terms of loudness capability the 300 is only capable of sound levels marginally louder than the 250, so in terms of perceived power it is not likely to seem hugely different - you probably need to at least double the power for that. What may be different is other factors such as control and possibly speed of response.

* curent amp versions  - I don’t know if peak power capability of CB 250 was the same

Yes IB,it is much easier to buy more efficient speakers,if you just want to play louder,but I think the 300 is more about quality than quantity.

The original 300 was for me a step up from the 250.2 with the following: More neutral and airy with more details and a tighter bass to better drive and control the ProAcs. The 250.2 was a bit (too) warm but comfortable (voices) while the 300 had a bit (too) lean of a medium but an appreciable darkness or mattity. Last but certainly not least, the 250.2 would saturate (fortes of the Lizt Campanella and the Chopin Scherzos) where the 300 does not.

I don’t know the new (DR) 250. I however DR’d my 300: The slight touch of brightness that came with the DR boards to be the only downside of this great upgrade in each and every already very good aspects of the 300 (resolution, focus, coherence, timbres, details, airiness and layering) has disappeared only after a year and about 300 listening hours. The 300 has now regained a great part of that mattity that listeners of classical music appreciate. 

Chag -

Naim Guy posted:

Adam, thanks for replying.

the 300 is far from painful. In fact it’s lovely. It’s just I was expecting more oomph. But there are days to go yet.

Hi Naim Guy, sorry to read of your early stage disappointment with the NAP300DR.  If it's oomph you are looking for, then a pair of serviced NAP135s would be my suggestion, given that you only have a week for the 300DR to come on song.  As a former CB250 owner, now a 135 owner, oomph is certainly what the 135 brings.

However, a 300DR is a better power amp than a pair of 135s, more effortlessly, flowingly, smoothly musical.  I preferred my 135s to a NAP300 but the DR upgrade to the 300 moved the game on quite a way.

Hope this helps, FT

blimey

it will, however,  run in and sound much better.

Naim Guy posted:

Happy you are spot on! That sums it up precisely. I had hoped the 300DR would be a thumper whereas it is more natural, musical and easy to listen to. 

Ill keep you all posted how it goes.

regards

Godfrey

Natural, musical and easy to listen to is a perfect description of the 300, and it’s what delights me with mine. The last thing I’d want is a ‘thumper’. I’ve had mine for four months now, from new, and it’s got very much better over that time, and certainly has more drive and boogie than when it was new. But if a raw and exciting sound is what you want, rather than something more musical and relaxing, it doesn’t matter that lots of people like the 300. The CB 250 is a wonderful thing - I had one for about 15 years - and I can see why you might prefer it, or aspects of it, to the 300. 

Foot tapper posted:

Naim Guy posted:

Adam, thanks for replying.

the 300 is far from painful. In fact it’s lovely. It’s just I was expecting more oomph. But there are days to go yet.

Hi Naim Guy, sorry to read of your early stage disappointment with the NAP300DR.  If it's oomph you are looking for, then a pair of serviced NAP135s would be my suggestion, given that you only have a week for the 300DR to come on song.  As a former CB250 owner, now a 135 owner, oomph is certainly what the 135 brings.

However, a 300DR is a better power amp than a pair of 135s, more effortlessly, flowingly, smoothly musical.  I preferred my 135s to a NAP300 but the DR upgrade to the 300 moved the game on quite a way.

Hope this helps, FT

FT - a +1 from me and how I went about things at the time (many years ago now). IIRC, the 300 changed the game of Naim amps via the more detailed presentation and other aspects as highlighted by Chag above. I think the new (post-Olive) amp range exhibited similar traits. 

At the time I struggled with this, as the media reviews of the 300 were very positive i.e. as a major step forward from a pair of 135s, representing a departure from the then mid-band orientated (in relative terms to other manu's) Naim brand sound. I was in the 'different yes, better not so sure' camp - which is where Naim Guy (Godfrey) perhaps finds himself now(?) 

I would also suggest listening to a pair of 135s if they can be found (matched/serviced etc) - which could lead to saving some pennies for the never ending stream of LP12 upgrades out there. All our mileages vary!

As we know, 135s are far more than just a cut in half 250. 

Happy Listener posted:

.......

One thing I know now, which I didn't know then, is that cabling and burndy management is vital for the 300/500 i.e. all cables must swing freely. 

.......

What about if the 300DR Burndies are drooping but suspended off the wool carpet with pipe insulation?

My boxes are the lowest in the brain brawn stacks.

Phil

Thank you all so much for your very helpful replies.

Regarding what the 300DR sounds like for anyone who is considering a 300DR, I agree with much of the above. It’s musical, sweeter and more natural. The music flows easy and the tune is easy to follow. It’s airier and open. It’s not necessarily any more dynamic than the the 250 till you wick it up when it never flusters but keeps control when the 250 is on the edge.

lt is a delightful amplifier. So if you’re looking for a musical upgrade it’s spot on. If you’re looking for a more dynamic amp, then it’s the Nap 500.

regards

Godfrey

Recently auditioned the 300DR (dealer's demo) at home for a fortnight and am now waiting for new one to be built/delivered to replace my 250DR. First impression from switch on was that the slightly "fruity" full bass of the 250DR was missing but the 300DR's musicality and ability to let you hear into the mix/arrangement really won me over.

The 250DR is back in place and sounding fine but I'm really looking forward to getting the new amp and hoping the burn-in journey isn't too painful.

sjbabbey posted:

Recently auditioned the 300DR (dealer's demo) at home for a fortnight and am now waiting for new one to be built/delivered to replace my 250DR. First impression from switch on was that the slightly "fruity" full bass of the 250DR was missing but the 300DR's musicality and ability to let you hear into the mix/arrangement really won me over.

The 250DR is back in place and sounding fine but I'm really looking forward to getting the new amp and hoping the burn-in journey isn't too painful.

Did the same myself twelve months ago best upgrade I've ever made.

Evening all. My friend Will came over this afternoon for a listen. Will, being an ex Decca sound engineer imeaditaley remarked  “ hold on that 250 is louder than the 300!”. So he gets out his dB Meter and we play the same few bars through both amps again and he’s spot on. So we played a 300hz and a 1kz testone through both and lo and behold the 250 is nearly 3.5 dB more louder on hold, peak and average. So we re-did the comparison this time adding 3.5 dB to the 300DR.......hmm, things all of a sudden are quite different!

More to follow.

cheers

Godfrey

Naim Guy posted:

Evening all. My friend Will came over this afternoon for a listen. Will, being an ex Decca sound engineer imeaditaley remarked  “ hold on that 250 is louder than the 300!”. So he gets out his dB Meter and we play the same few bars through both amps again and he’s spot on. So we played a 300hz and a 1kz testone through both and lo and behold the 250 is nearly 3.5 dB more louder on hold, peak and average. So we re-did the comparison this time adding 3.5 dB to the 300DR.......hmm, things all of a sudden are quite different!

More to follow.

cheers

Godfrey

Is that winding both up to max, or simply swapping out with same volume control setting on preamp. I get the impression you mean the latter. That indicates different gain, rather than the total power (effectively loudness) the amp will achieve without overload, and in itself is immaterial.

However, my understanding is that the 250 and the 300 are supposed to have identical gain (29dB IIRC), so uless the older CB had different gain that would point to one or other amp not being in spec, and would be worth taking up with your dealer or Naim customer service.

Filipe posted:

What about if the 300DR Burndies are drooping but suspended off the wool carpet with pipe insulation?

My boxes are the lowest in the brain brawn stacks.

Phil

Phil - unanswerable for want of comparison in your system/room etc,, save to repeat that having properly hung burndies is best IME. Absent the availability of the elusive 'sky hooks' is there a way you can use light string to suspend the burndies from shelving? I've had to do this with a couple of my burndies & interconnects, not to lift from the floor but to ensure cable separation. I've ended up with a rubber band/string cord I.e. something cheap and with some 'boing'. I've no idea whether the elastic band helps/doesn't!

I thought I had reached my final Fraim build solution until Darke bear suggested a 500PS shouldn't have anything sat above it/seems better on top of brawn stack. Damn the man ...another rebuild soon.

This is where stack building becomes a real tease e.g. somehow working out how a NAP300/500 head unit needs to sit say >3 Fraim levels different (assume 2 stacks) from the respective PSs to accommodate the hang of the burndies.

..now back to Godfrey's thread,

Innocent Bystander posted:

However, my understanding is that the 250 and the 300 are supposed to have identical gain (29dB IIRC), so uless the older CB had different gain that would point to one or other amp not being in spec, and would be worth taking up with your dealer or Naim customer service.

IB, Naim Guy wrote this in his first post: "Perhaps it’s because [my CB250 has] been factory tuned to drive my Isobariks and every service I make sure that the service guys know that."

Significant?