New NAP 300DR Underwhelmed

Innocent Bystander posted:

Naim Guy posted:

Evening all. My friend Will came over this afternoon for a listen. Will, being an ex Decca sound engineer imeaditaley remarked  “ hold on that 250 is louder than the 300!”. So he gets out his dB Meter and we play the same few bars through both amps again and he’s spot on. So we played a 300hz and a 1kz testone through both and lo and behold the 250 is nearly 3.5 dB more louder on hold, peak and average. So we re-did the comparison this time adding 3.5 dB to the 300DR.......hmm, things all of a sudden are quite different!

More to follow.

cheers

Godfrey

Is that winding both up to max, or simply swapping out with same volume control setting on preamp. I get the impression you mean the latter. That indicates different gain, rather than the total power (effectively loudness) the amp will achieve without overload, and in itself is immaterial.

However, my understanding is that the 250 and the 300 are supposed to have identical gain (29dB IIRC), so uless the older CB had different gain that would point to one or other amp not being in spec, and would be worth taking up with your dealer or Naim customer service.

Hi, yes the pot was untouched.

Naim Guy posted:

Good evening everyone. thank you all so much for your helpful replies. Forgive me not replying sooner but i wanted to listen as much as possible and avoid posting to give the 300 as much time as possible.

I must start my update by explainng that I haven't said that the 300 is a bad amp, ony that i had expected it to have more oompth. It is a very great amp indeed (and I’ll describe its attributes in a second.) My disapointment was that out of the box I had expected it to jump into action.

The 300 has been powered on now for 4 days and each day it becomes more and more fluid. 

We did some interesting tests this afternoon in a more controlled way. testing peak and average dB levels between the CB250 and the 300 using a 1kz test tone, and a complete track of the same music  with the volume pot at the same level remaining untouched in the tests. On a 1kz tone over a full minute the 250 averaged 1.5 db more volume than the 300 and on the test track on the streamer, we used Keith do’nt go by Nils Lofgren which is an excellent recording and has good dynamics. this had some interesting results as the average for both tracks was

250: 84db

300: 81.5 dB.

We repeated the test 3 times with the same results. in other words the 250 was louder. we quickly adjusted the streamer volume by 3db for the 300 and played a few tracks on the 250 and then the 300. The increase of volume makes a huge difference to the listening comparison and whilst having a comletely different musical presentation the 300 was punching away. Now i have no explaination for the difference in volume but it makes a marked difference. Now when I listen to tracks that i haven played for a while with the Volme pot adjusted, the 300 really shows what it can do.

So I’ll try to sum up its strengths. The 300 DR has a much sweeter natural tone and sound stage. it reveals the music in much more detail and delineation, yet allows all these individual parts to contribute and biulld to the overall song. It also can play loud and i mean loud and never loses control at shatterig levels. the 250 runs out of power long before the 300.

The CB250 is more basic, its strengths lie in the “Boogie” factor and though it does not seperate all that is going on ito real individual strands like the 300. its tone is starker and not as sweet or natural. yet it remains a superbly musical amplifier and has a lovely dynamic and musically engaging sound.

There is no doubt the 300 is definitly improving. I have till Monday to make up my mind so i will be listening intently over the few days.

Regards

Godfrey

 

 

 

 

Glad it seems all sorted.

I just find the original post a bit puzzling: I would have just automatically adjusted the volume to sound right, rather than play at the same setting as the 250 and complain it isn’t as powerful and doesn’t have impact and punch - while your latest post clarifies that it actually does go louder and without losing control. (My apologies if I have misunderstood anything). For clarity, when comparing anything, whether amps or DACs or different versions of a recording, unless you normalise the sound level you will hear them differently.

So in conclusion, there is actually nothing underwhelming about the 300 compared to the 250?  (And really that is nothing to do with burn-in or getting used to it, just requires playing at the same level)

There remains the unexplained difference in gain between the two amps compared to current specs, but that is of no consequence it seems.

Dan.S posted:

Dear OP.

Take the time for your 300DR to fully brake in. Let's say 2-3 months. Then switch back to your 250. You'll have the surprise of your life. When I switched from my SU to 272&250DR didn't notice that much of a difference until 3 months later when I tried my SU for one last time before selling it. I first though the SU somehow got broken. Yes, that much of a difference.

Wouldn't your SU have needed to be fully warmed up again for a few days to give it a fighting chance against the 272/250DR though, unless you kept it plugged in of course?

Godfrey - pls excuse the obvious comment but if this is a home dem arrangement (could be dealer's new stock unit - which, AFAIK, often happens at this time of the year), why not ask to have the unit for another week?  - after all you are burning it in for them   Or even get the 300 back another time for an extended listen. As others have said here, new units take quite a while to warm-up/burn-in. 

An anecdote -  Many years ago on a Tuesday morning I went for a dem at a dealer's shop (closed Monday)  - met the shop owner/manager outside as he was unlocking. A tall stack of Naim kit was in the corner of the dem room (sources/pre/amp etc,), with nothing lit up. He could only assume someone had turned it all off at closing on Saturday. A summary of his words is 'this lot will take at least a week to recover - somebody is 'for it''. Fortunately, I was there to listen to a CDP, the next one up in the Naim range and the difference in quality was obvious even from cold, a far easier matter than having to re-acclimatise from the 'old-Naim' sonic traits of the CB/Olive amp ranges.

Re your comments on output/sound levels, one thing I would say is that as I climbed the Naim-kit tree, this has enabled me to play thing a touch louder (be this due to source/pre/amp), which has enhanced my musical experience/enjoyment. The reason I moved on from an Olive 250 was that it ran out of steam sometimes (via CD), not helped by my then Dynaudios (supposedly a stable 4ohm load - methinks not entirely so). I managed to trip the 250's heat protection a few times.

Burn in is very real and takes weeks. 

NAP135’s are betttered by the 500DR - its only however, a two horse race.

Naim Guy posted:

PCD, thanks. You’d think Naim would burn them in if they take that long.

cheers

I have been suggesting that for about 20 years !

Falls on deaf ears (pun intended) 

No, just fit for purpose out of the box.

Good evening all. 

Well today was decision day. What did I decide? Well the CB250 is packed in its box looking for a new home.

Thank you to all of you for your support and helpful replies. Especially those of you who advised me to let it bed in. The transformation between last Tuesday and today is nothing short of remarkable. Everything about the 300DR is all that you said it would be and I’m enjoying it very much. Here but I’m gone by Vanessa Fernandez on the LP12 sounds spectacular.  There is so much more to everything that is happening with each performer sounding so individual yet contributing to the whole. There is an air of naturalness that is very satisfying and of course PRaT and tune dem is spot on.

Given that this is only my third Naim Power Amp in 38 years I think I’ve done rather well and it’s a testimony to how superb the trusty 250 has served me.

Cheers and thank you to Will.

Godfrey

Enjoy your new amp it is something special.

Godfrey..... it is early days yet!!!  it will take around 3 weeks to get 90% there ....leave it powered all the time. Please report back in - in a couple of weeks ... enjoy!!!!

my 300 now DR has been in my system since Sunday, I heard the difference the DR created straight away but 300 was straight out of the box and cold

the DR certainly does not "WOW" straight away, but had it on since Sunday the 300 is warming up nicely it was on the back ground all day yesertday just playing Radio paradise will be doing that all week until the weekend when I can give the 300 a real work out

yesterday evening even after 24 hours you could hear the difference in the detail & focus the DR brings - i have a really good feeling there is a LOT more to come

Don't worry there will ........ !!!!! enjoy..

Don Atkinson posted:

Naim Guy posted:

PCD, thanks. You’d think Naim would burn them in if they take that long.

cheers

I have been suggesting that for about 20 years !

Falls on deaf ears (pun intended) 

Let’s say 200 hours break in on each item.  That would require an extra faculty and extra person to cordinate.  

In addition for power amps you’d need a suitable pair of speakers to provide the pull.  

Just a quick update. The 250 has now gone back to the shop as a trade in and is on its way to a delighted new owner.

cheers 

Godfrey

Evening all, thought I’d give you an update at eleven days in.

This amp is turning into something very special indeed. All the snap, boogie factor, PRaT and power of the old 250 have been surpassed in spades! It can go very loud! And yet never gets flustered. Even at ear shattering levels.

It has developed a beautifully sweet natural tone which is a real bonus as well, such that cymbals sound metallic with a lovely tsing sound rather than a tisz. 

Musically it has a wonderful sense of pace and timing. It surpasses the old 250 in tune dem dramatically.

Dynamically, it has real impact which just fits right into the music giving an even greater snap and impact. I have to contradict the poster who felt 135’s are better. In fact I don’t think that they are any more powerful at all and I am very familiar with 135’s and also a good friend had a 135 six pack, but 135’s have none of the delicacy and finesse of the 300DR.

The soundstage has opened right up with a much greater sense of being there. Musically each performer comes across so much clearer as an individual yet adding to the whole. The tone has become Troika like reminding me of the luscious mid band tone of the old supex 900/grace 707 combination of long ago and is most welcome. I am hearing so much more of everything.

in conclusion, it is delicate, yet powerful. It is sweeter, more natural and boogies with such natural ease, with so much more musical information and above all it is joyous to listen to.

I simply cannot believe the transformation of how it sounds in just ten days. I love it.

Im so glad I took your advice and waited. Thank you all.

cheers

Godfrey

Yes - run-in does happen and it is all better by about two weeks in.

You have a lot more to come yet too. Enjoy!

DB.

I really shouldn’t read 300DR threads. But I’ll throw my hat into the ring and add that when I moved my system into a new room after having it packed away for a few weeks it took several weeks to fully come back on song. Was very worried at first that the new room acoustics were all wrong! All is fine again now though. Or will be if I stop reading about the virtues of the 300DR. ????

Excellent, thank you for the update Naim Guy.  Much as I admire my own NAP135s, a 300DR gives even more.... once it is through that nerve testing, run-in phase!  And the best bit?  It's going to keep on getting better for a while yet.

Best regards, FT

Congrats Naim guy! Sounds very familiar and like you are getting the real 300dr experience now, br Lars

Nice to learn that the story has a happy ending.  300s don't normally disappoint.

I recon it still has more to give ........... enjoy........

Naim Guy posted:

Evening all, thought I’d give you an update at eleven days in.

This amp is turning into something very special indeed. All the snap, boogie factor, PRaT and power of the old 250 have been surpassed in spades! It can go very loud! And yet never gets flustered. Even at ear shattering levels.

It has developed a beautifully sweet natural tone which is a real bonus as well, such that cymbals sound metallic with a lovely tsing sound rather than a tisz. 

Musically it has a wonderful sense of pace and timing. It surpasses the old 250 in tune dem dramatically.

Dynamically, it has real impact which just fits right into the music giving an even greater snap and impact. I have to contradict the poster who felt 135’s are better. In fact I don’t think that they are any more powerful at all and I am very familiar with 135’s and also a good friend had a 135 six pack, but 135’s have none of the delicacy and finesse of the 300DR.

The soundstage has opened right up with a much greater sense of being there. Musically each performer comes across so much clearer as an individual yet adding to the whole. The tone has become Troika like reminding me of the luscious mid band tone of the old supex 900/grace 707 combination of long ago and is most welcome. I am hearing so much more of everything.

in conclusion, it is delicate, yet powerful. It is sweeter, more natural and boogies with such natural ease, with so much more musical information and above all it is joyous to listen to.

I simply cannot believe the transformation of how it sounds in just ten days. I love it.

Im so glad I took your advice and waited. Thank you all.

cheers

Godfrey

Godfrey

just a few days behind you on DR install - completly echo your experience, mine 7 days in now change is dramantic, as i said on my own thread DR could easily stand for delayed response!