Because only stupids never change their mind

Like you Max, I have a few hundred old LPs and when I re-entered this hobby 5 years ago I just got a basic TT to be able to play them; by now I have invested more in my analogue source than my digital one.

But, to be honest (first and foremost, with myself) when comparing the same piece of music  between the two sources  I am rather hard pressed to pronounce a winner. And, on top, vinyl is much more expensive to buy, more restrictive in terms of supply, more risky (lots of off-centered or wrapped records these days, from new pressings!) - not to mention the cleaning ritual (once per month the Project VC-S cleaner is busy spinning....)

So why do this? I only have two answers that I find honest. The first is pure nostalgia. The moments of joy after cleaning and replaying an LP I had not listened to for ages (and now in an incomparably better system) have so far been the highest reward after getting into audio again. The second (which does not apply exclusively to my old LPs) is that it's not the sound quality, it's the whole (tactile and attentive) experience. CD is also tactile but marginally so. I guess it must have something in common with the love for older classic cars...

Blimey. 

Perol posted:

Once there was a song "you can"t allways get what you want"

 

It's very hardly my case. It's almost never my case. And anyway, Perol, if you are who I think you are, why polemize with me when we have been so often in friendly contact personally? And if you are not, I apologize but always is written with just one 'l' – the same mistake the other guy always does on the other forum...

Max

Max_B posted:

@ Morton: the first part seemed Lennie Tristano on speed, the second is a showcase in knowledge of modes and skills in not taking wrong notes. Who denies that BM is able to play the piano? Now this, though, is also music, IMO:

Enjoy it, and start to breath again.

Max

And listening to that, neither from vinyl nor CD through a hifi system but a (probably lossy) compressed format streamed across the internet and played by an iPad through its internal speakers - i.e. about the lowest of fi, and a tune that I have hitherto regarded as a not particularly interesting traditional Irish song, played in that way suddenly becomes something else.

THAT is music. And you don’t need hifi to enjoy it. (Though a good recording played through a good system may make it even better.)

Max_B posted:

So, to settle the whole thing: I bought a decent LP spinner. I decided to put it in the main system along with my CDX2. I use a Stageline that I plan to power in dual-rail. I rediscovered the pleasure to listen to LPs, especially because most of them comes from when I was in my teens or twenties. I also found that the difference in presentation between LP and CD is not always in favour of one vs the other. As I wrote two pages ago, it's now the one and the other. Simple, isn't it? And I add that I perhaps wouldn't have done it if I hadn't been 'nagged' in this direction patiently and friendly by Chris_M.

M.

You wrote”the presentation is not always in favor of one vs the other “:  so i understand that you seem to enjoy both sources.  So i finally don’t understand what is the real question or meaning of the topic you opened.  I am sorry, perhaps i miss something.

You have a new turntable to enjoy the lps you have. If you want to buy some , sometimes, i recommend you Discogs:  you can buy original lps in near mint or mint condition from all over the world.  

You had own before one of the less boring cd player on the planet, the cdx2/xps2. But you seem to prefer now the cdx2/tpxps. You have just to enjoy your cds.  Where is the dilemma, the dichotomy?

Max_B posted:

Perol posted:

Once there was a song "you can"t allways get what you want"

 

It's very hardly my case. It's almost never my case. And anyway, Perol, if you are who I think you are, why polemize with me when we have been so often in friendly contact personally? And if you are not, I apologize but always is written with just one 'l' – the same mistake the other guy always does on the other forum...

Max

Not trying to polemize or beeing unfrendly, who I am or how I spell should be entirely irrelevant (always)

Just noticed its not the first time you ask for getting threads closed, leaving forum etc..not that I care, just found the behavior strange.

As for the subject, I found the exact same, sometime I prefer my vinyl, sometime not.

I do however not have a Project turntable.

Perol posted:

A democratic process has happend and various people contributed

Why close a thread if its gone in other directions than OP wanted ? 

It is considered to be bad form to hijack a thread - though digressions happen all the time, not meaning to hijack, and often take a life of their own, whether entertaining, or simply following a theme or themes of interest that develop. Nothing wrong with that, and indeed long may it continue - but at the same time in each case it is the OP’s thread, and that individual is entitled to ask for it to be kept on subject, or to ask for it to be closed (or even removed), typically done either after it has served its intended purpose, or because it has become something the OP might not like, or want to be associated with, etc.

Personally I found the diversion to be mildly amusing - but it did have nothing to do with the subject, and the return is indeed rather more interesting.

Max_B posted:

And I add that I perhaps wouldn't have done it if I hadn't been 'nagged' in this direction patiently and friendly by Chris_M.

M.

Thanks Max, great news. Long live the Project, Grado and Stageline   :-)

Best, C.

Max,

I had been part of the diversion and now I understand why you found that so problematic.  I assumed you had used that form of words in a light-hearted manner as so many people do (I'll not elucidate here, so as not to repeat the offence).  Subsequently I read your post that made it clear you were entirely serious, and I realised the error of my assumption.

I unreservedly apologise for the offence I caused.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Perol posted:

A democratic process has happend and various people contributed

Why close a thread if its gone in other directions than OP wanted ? 

It is considered to be bad form to hijack a thread - though digressions happen all the time, not meaning to hijack, and often take a life of their own, whether entertaining, or simply following a theme or themes of interest that develop. Nothing wrong with that, and indeed long may it continue - but at the same time in each case it is the OP’s thread, and that individual is entitled to ask for it to be kept on subject, or to ask for it to be closed (or even removed), typically done either after it has served its intended purpose, or because it has become something the OP might not like, or want to be associated with, etc.

Personally I found the diversion to be mildly amusing - but it did have nothing to do with the subject, and the return is indeed rather more interesting.

Apologies, I was not aware of this possibility

Max,

I have to remind you that you are talking here to a very sophisticated audiophile crowd who is known to change its mind few times a day, no stupidity here (if you are not counting me).

Personally, I always used more than one source since from day one I had a tuner connected to whatever system I owned. The only few times I was tempted to do a direct comparison was when I played a CD and its equivalent LP at the same time and switched sources on the Nait in the midst of playing. The LPs won hands down every time (in terms of enjoyment) but I never had difficulties going from one to the other.

Haim

Max_B posted:

seakayaker posted:

Max, congratulations on getting the TT!

I would be terrified heading down that track with the money needed to acquire a vinyl library once again.

 

Seakayaker,

I don't plan to buy new LPs at all, for two reasons: cost and quality. First, I have a few hundreds already, and as for new productions (but which ones? The 50th recording of  Beethoven's Symphonies? The last revolutionary disc of a band of septuagenarians?) I'll buy – if any – CDs. The TT serves me to replay adequately and pleasantly my existing discotheque.

Alternatively, second hand LPs, made from analogue masters, possibly nothing more recent than the early 90s. I'll try to have some coherence and order in my discotheque. What would I do with a costly new pressing made from a digital recording and/or mastering, then 'vinylized'?

Max

Max, happy to hear you had a few hundred albums on hand!

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) my album collection dissipated in the early '90's along with a long term relationship/marriage.  Adding a TT is something I have had a passing thought about but find the cost of building a library over the top at this stage of my life. So streaming and CD's for this old man........    (.......of course I reserve the right to change my mind)

Haim Ronen posted:

Max,

I have to remind you that you are talking here to a very sophisticated audiophile crowd who is known to change its mind few times a day, no stupidity here (if you are not counting me).

Personally, I always used more than one source since from day one I had a tuner connected to whatever system I owned. The only few times I was tempted to do a direct comparison was when I played a CD and its equivalent LP at the same time and switched sources on the Nait in the midst of playing. The LPs won hands down every time (in terms of enjoyment) but I never had difficulties going from one to the other.

Haim

 

 

if you compare the same album on lp vs cd, the lp will quite always win, because the original lp recording is always better.  To really compare turntable sound vs digital, it is more relevant to compare the best lps sounding vs the best cd or files sounding, but not same albums. 

The contrary is often true also: a modern digital recording will sound better on cd or file than on lp transfer, because most modern commercial lps are bad quality. The exceptions are mobile fidelity or analogue productions lps, but they are expensive and the catalog is limited.

I may have been complicit towards the events that ensued but I do not necessarily believe that each and every accessory to the 'crime' should come forward and apologise for derailing the thread. I personally found some comments to be informative and some to be laugh out loud 'entertaining'. There were possibly some that were on the cusp of being 'insensitive' but I feel it is important that these 'unforeseen' circumstances should not discourage members from 'contributing' in their own unique way. There are times when 'hard' lessons are 'learned' but a show of composure and humility is often more suitable than an 'initial' over-reaction. It would possibly be more prudent for words to be chosen with due care and attention before submission, because once it is in the public domain it is open to interpretation.

Max: Please continue posting whatever you feel and perhaps it is not necessary to respond to everything.

PS. I would consider this forum to be considerate and respectful in comparison to the 'chemical' warfare that is often deployed elsewhere.

Huge posted:

Max,

I had been part of the diversion and now I understand why you found that so problematic.  I assumed you had used that form of words in a light-hearted manner as so many people do (I'll not elucidate here, so as not to repeat the offence).  Subsequently I read your post that made it clear you were entirely serious, and I realised the error of my assumption.

I unreservedly apologise for the offence I caused.

Huge,

I had no intention of being 'serious'. It's been a surprise to me how difficult it seemed for some to catch the spirit of my post. The only thing I didn't like was the 'diversion' around the use of terms like 'dichotomy' and 'dichotomous', but since it was me introducing them, I have little to complain about. But you have absolutely no reason to apologize. So, all is ok.

I sometimes have a feeling of not being able to grasp the communication codes of this place. It is not only a question of languages – although what with the occasional use of strict vernacular terms, what with the occasional beastly use (or I should say lack) of punctuation by some, there are threads that seem to have a meaning, linguistically speaking, for locals only – but actually also of a will to communicate clearly. But I am aware that I can't expect people to understand me, or myself to catch every nuance of someone else's way of expressing himself.

This thread seemed so simple and innocent to me; its only sense was: I am no more fighting between LP and CD as if they were mutually exclusive formats on a conceptual or philosophical plain; I can live with both. This is also a result of the therapy (as you all can see, I have NO difficulty in talking about me openly, and have never 'hidden behind a finger', as we say), and I consider it a good thing. I am enjoying LP replay. At the same time, it is in my very nature to compare, to establish differences and, perhaps, hierarchical lists. But I didn't say anything about a supremacy of a format over the other; I thought I had simply said that I was enjoying both for their inherent best and worst qualities. But this forum, on which I admit I don't spare myself when it's about writing, is probably used to consider me like the Judges of ancient times: you stay alive, you go to the gallows. This side, that side. Black or white.

I have nothing more to say about my decent TT, my honest cart, my lower-high profile phono stage. Everyone can go on finding amusement from my starting point as he, or she, prefers. It's only that we are all different, and there is usually a point where a subject becomes a sort of TV sketch full of quick exchanges of witty or circumlocutorily sub-subjects and I, well, lose myself. Anyway, I am happy with my purchase – and way, way too old to dedicate more time to this thing. I leave the door open, be my guest.

M.

Haim Ronen posted:

(...) The only few times I was tempted to do a direct comparison was when I played a CD and its equivalent LP at the same time and switched sources on the Nait in the midst of playing. The LPs won hands down every time (in terms of enjoyment) but I never had difficulties going from one to the other.

Haim

I too had similar experiences in my distant past, with the same results. It's because I later so often expressed myself harshly vs LP replay that I posted my thread. And it's why I now will add a dedicated PSU to the Stageline: to augment my enjoyment reducing the distance between the two sources.

See you around (in my mailbox, unfortunately..),

M.

French Rooster posted:

if you compare the same album on lp vs cd, the lp will quite always win, because the original lp recording is always better.  

To your ears, yes. To some other people’s ears, yes. To some other people’s ears, no. To my ears no. I hear too many imperfections with vinyl (as a generalisation). And I am talking about original analog recordings, having never heard a disc made from a digital recording (to the best of my knowledge) However, in that statement I am thinking streaming of locally stored files rather than CD, having abandoned CD some time ago now.

But as I ventured earlier, there can equally be significant differences between one issue of a CD and another, which makes the whole comparison meaningless, especially with different mastering for CD and LP. So on balance, like what you like, and prefer what you prefer - there is certainly no need for a battle, or even necessarily an answer as to which is best: each simply is. And I sometimes respond, as in the paragraph above, to challenge dogma

i wasn’t very clear i think so i will try in a different way.  I have not said that vinyl is better than digital.   When i said modern digital recording, i was referring to today’s recordings.

As you said, there are bad made cds and bad made lps. For a same album you can find a better cd than lp and the contrary, for sure.

For recordings from 60’s to around 85’s, which were transferred and produced on lps, i prefer the lp vs the cd for a same album, generally speaking. And i think that the lp sound , for this period, is generally better than the post cd format.  It is my point of view as the point of view of many vinyl lovers, like Michael Fremer, Jason Kennedy, Jonathan Valin.....renowned audio specialists.

I strongly believe in that, and it is the reason i will never sell my turntable. My lps are all near mint or mint original lps, taken with great care .   Since more than 30 years , one half of my collection was renewed, but i have only around 400 lps; i keep only the best and more enjoyable one.  When one lp becomes in average condition, i change it: no problem with discogs.

I have also some mobile fidelity or analogue productions ones, fabulous, but the catalog is limited.

Anyway, as you said , it is a point of view....Some prefer sacd or dsd 64 or 126 for the same albums and same period. Not me.   But some exceptions for some dsd i have, but very very limited: 3.

Some years ago, I wanted play around with some of the alleged ways of improving CD sound. In particular I wondered whether, following the success with an Audioglasse record cleaner, their CD improver might work. So I bought half a dozen copies of the same CD from charity shops. I made a jig on my lathe to centre the disc and support it while cutting the perimeter. But, before staring the trimming process I noticed the numbers on two discs were different. So I checked and found five different numbers and covers stating made in Canada, US, England, Netherlands and Germany. 

Playing them, there were clear differences, subtle, possibly inconsequential, but enough that I only had two identical and gave up when the one I trimmed, delaminated.

For various reasons I have four different copies of The Heart of the Congos, two vinyl, two CD, all with different matrix numbers. They all sound different.

Comparisons are not always easy!

Since the thread seems to have developed something of vinyl v CD/digital discussion, I'll throw in my tuppence worth.

I very much recognise some of DRPO's comments earlier. I think vinyl offers a total experience superior to other forms: the artwork on the sleeve, the prep needed on the turntable, the delightful cueing of the arm. Lovely! CD is much more clinical 'plop-and-play' but lower maintenance. The absence of background clicks, pops etc is also for me a big plus.

However, by far, the biggest factor to be weighed in which I 'prefer' comes down to the quality of the mastering/ re-mastering. I've heard some albums on vinyl which, with the right pressing, I've found more enjoyable than the best CD recordings e.g. early Led Zep and Hendrix albums.  On the other hand, I've heard some albums on CD that better the vinyl version e.g. We Are The Fallen.  

I can happily listen to either format. I've chosen to go CD and if that even changes it will be to ripping/streaming.  But I shall always be an admirer of vinyl and know some albums can sound truly awesome on that format.

It's all fun.            

MDS posted:

Since the thread seems to have developed something of vinyl v CD/digital discussion, I'll throw in my tuppence worth.

I very much recognise some of DRPO's comments earlier. I think vinyl offers a total experience superior to other forms: the artwork on the sleeve, the prep needed on the turntable, the delightful cueing of the arm. Lovely! CD is much more clinical 'plop-and-play' but lower maintenance. The absence of background clicks, pops etc is also for me a big plus.

However, by far, the biggest factor to be weighed in which I 'prefer' comes down to the quality of the mastering/ re-mastering. I've heard some albums on vinyl which, with the right pressing, I've found more enjoyable than the best CD recordings e.g. early Led Zep and Hendrix albums.  On the other hand, I've heard some albums on CD that better the vinyl version e.g. We Are The Fallen.  

I can happily listen to either format. I've chosen to go CD and if that even changes it will be to ripping/streaming.  But I shall always be an admirer of vinyl and know some albums can sound truly awesome on that format.

It's all fun.            

we are the fallen is a 2009 album, from what i found on google. So it is logical that the cd version is better.

if you take the vast majority of rock albums from the 60’s and 70’s, the lp version, the original format, will be better sounding.  just exceptions for some...

But of course you have to compare good pressings of the 2 formats.  Original good quality pressings for led zep, hendrix, dire straits, pink floyd, beatles, the who, ...etc ...are sounding better on vinyl.

From 1985, approximately, to 2018, the cd format or high rez, will sound better, in most cases, because the lp is a transfer from cd and the vast majority of these lps/ transfer from cds are average sounding or no better sounding than the cd.  Exceptions for mobile fidelity or analogue productions remasters that can sound better.

French Rooster posted:

if you take the vast majority of rock albums from the 60’s and 70’s, the lp version, the original format, will be better sounding.  just exceptions for some...

But of course you have to compare good pressings of the 2 formats.  Original good quality pressings for led zep, hendrix, dire straits, pink floyd, beatles, the who, ...etc ...are sounding better on vinyl.

 

Your opinion there, again - others may not agree, and increasingly as digital replay improved that has become somewhat less than exceptional.

Of course, without having access to a virgin copy of a first pressing of one of my albums before I disposed of my turntable I was unable to make a direct comparison of CD with original new LP, and my view is based on real life experience of a collection where a good proportion of LPs had a lot of use. But then, what I listen to is just that, a collection of music that I play, some of it very frequently, and i want it to sound excellent every time I play it.

i did note in your earlier post that you accepted a need to replace vinyl periodically as it deteriorated - something I admit to never having done. (if I had, my collection would have remained a lot smaller than it ended up as I wouldn’t have been able to afford the number of new items that I did buy.)  So, you recognise that in practice vinyl only sounds at its best for a limited time (in effect inversely proportional to the number of plays/amount of handling), and from that with a real life collection including  records that are played a lot the net effect may be vinyl sounding less than whatever represents perfection for the medium.

increasingly I think it is pointless to compare - people’s preferences have a number of reasons, and sound quality per se may not be anything to do with it, though sound may be (which can include nuances of different masterings).

Innocent Bystander posted:

French Rooster posted:

if you take the vast majority of rock albums from the 60’s and 70’s, the lp version, the original format, will be better sounding.  just exceptions for some...

But of course you have to compare good pressings of the 2 formats.  Original good quality pressings for led zep, hendrix, dire straits, pink floyd, beatles, the who, ...etc ...are sounding better on vinyl.

 

Your opinion there, again - others may not agree, and increasingly as digital replay improved that has become somewhat less than exceptional.

Of course, without having access to a virgin copy of a first pressing of one of my albums before I disposed of my turntable I was unable to make a direct comparison of CD with original new LP, and my view is based on real life experience of a collection where a good proportion of LPs had a lot of use. But then, what I listen to is just that, a collection of music that I play, some of it very frequently, and i want it to sound excellent every time I play it.

i did note in your earlier post that you accepted a need to replace vinyl periodically as it deteriorated - something I admit to never having done. (if I had, my collection would have remained a lot smaller than it ended up as I wouldn’t have been able to afford the number of new items that I did buy.)  So, you recognise that in practice vinyl only sounds at its best for a limited time (in effect inversely proportional to the number of plays/amount of handling), and from that with a real life collection including  records that are played a lot the net effect may be vinyl sounding less than whatever represents perfection for the medium.

increasingly I think it is pointless to compare - people’s preferences have a number of reasons, and sound quality per se may not be anything to do with it, though sound may be (which can include nuances of different masterings).

 

i can agree with you on one point: for convenience, the streaming, or even a cd player, are far better sources.. No need to search the album , clean it, clean the stylus, put the record clamp, adjust the right gain for some lps, .....and put the lp back in the “pocket “(?).

The other point is that i have no source preference, because i have the same pleasure to listen on both sources.

The unique point i wanted to explain is that i prefer, in most cases, to listen to lps  if the recording comes from the analog era. It is just that.

But today, and since the mid 80’s, the music is on cd format or file/high rez, and i am enjoying it in the same way.  But i am just not streaming or buying cds for music recorded in the vinyl era. I much prefer the sound of lps in that period.

But this period is limited, going for me from late 60’s to mid 80’s.  So finally i am more listening digital, and discovering new albums on digital format.

I guess i am more clear now.

I also go from one format to another although not CD>>Vinyl but Streaming>>Vinyl and like Max can enjoy both. I never really fell in love with the CD and never invested heavily in finding one to rival the sound I could get from a decent TT and at the moment the same is true for streaming although I can see the appeal and do enjoy listening to some 32 bit internet radio stations.

I’m not 100% with this view that post 85 digital recordings are best on CD.  2 recordings which I know are digital, Nothing Like The Sun by Sting and On Every Street by Dire Straits, are simply superb on vinyl outstripping the CD by the country mile.   All in the mastering I imagine.  

Regards,

Lindsay