Cisco switch

Mike, I’m curious as to why a gigabit switch might be better, especially with a Naim streamer, all of which have fast Ethernet ports, as do most of the Catalyst switches people are using?

Bunny Colvin posted:

I don't suppose anyone knows if some of the other Cisco models are equally beneficial? The Cisco SF 110D 8 Port, seems to be readily available where I live but it is harder to come by 2960s that aren't the 24 or 48 port versions.

The Cisco 'Small Business' range (100, 200 and 300 series) are very different to the Catalyst switches. My only experience of them is a 300 series switch, which was very electrically noisy, so possibly not the best for connecting up audio equipment, although of course, they will get the bits to the right destination, I'm sure. The safe bet would seem to be to hold out for a Catalyst switch

Bunny Colvin posted:

I don't suppose anyone knows if some of the other Cisco models are equally beneficial? The Cisco SF 110D 8 Port, seems to be readily available where I live but it is harder to come by 2960s that aren't the 24 or 48 port versions.

Yes I have found the Catalyst 3560 also equally beneficial... again the 8 port version. A little dicky bird tells me the word is getting around the would of digital Hi-Fi audio and possibly that is leading to the  buying up the available used 8 port stock... it is the Catalyst devices that seem to be beneficial, perhaps because of the their physical layer (PHY) design and clock regulation. Just because the switch says Cisco on the front doesn’t mean it will neccessarily sound beneficial... I suspect it’s the internal architecture and design that counts.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Bunny Colvin posted:

I don't suppose anyone knows if some of the other Cisco models are equally beneficial? The Cisco SF 110D 8 Port, seems to be readily available where I live but it is harder to come by 2960s that aren't the 24 or 48 port versions.

Yes I have found the Catalyst 3560 also equally beneficial... again the 8 port version. A little dicky bird tells me the word is getting around the would of digital Hi-Fi audio and possibly that is leading to the  buying up the available used 8 port stock... it is the Catalyst devices that seem to be beneficial, perhaps because of the their physical layer (PHY) design and clock regulation. Just because the switch says Cisco on the front doesn’t mean it will neccessarily sound beneficial... I suspect it’s the internal architecture and design that counts.

Funnily enough, I my impression is that used 2960 prices on ebay have dropped quite a bit recently in the UK. I bought one a couple of weeks ago for £24 including delivery.

It might depend on the software build  (IOS) and version of course, as that is what can drive the price.... but that is a good price for a legit 8 porter.. and most here perhaps use in default non managed mode so the software build provably becomes largely immaterial... but I still hear the word is getting around....

ChrisSU posted:

Mike, I’m curious as to why a gigabit switch might be better, especially with a Naim streamer, all of which have fast Ethernet ports, as do most of the Catalyst switches people are using? 

I know Chris, I do understand why a 10/100 switch should be OK & why you ask,  but I have heard an obvious difference between Netgear 'F' & 'G' switches,   I'm in no way saying that applies to the SOHO Cisco switches or any other switch for that matter, , but at this basic level for the sake of a few extra squids,  why not.

My question to you is how did the Cisco 300 manifest itself to you as 'noisy' ??   

Mike-B posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Mike, I’m curious as to why a gigabit switch might be better, especially with a Naim streamer, all of which have fast Ethernet ports, as do most of the Catalyst switches people are using? 

I know Chris, I do understand why a 10/100 switch should be OK & why you ask,  but I have heard an obvious difference between Netgear 'F' & 'G' switches,   I'm in no way saying that applies to the SOHO Cisco switches or any other switch for that matter, , but at this basic level for the sake of a few extra squids,  why not.

My question to you is how did the Cisco 300 manifest itself to you as 'noisy' ??   

Mike, I was using Simon's LW radio test, which showed the 300 as being noisy, both its external wall-wart PSU, and the switch itself. The 2960 I use at the other end was absolutely silent using this test.

ChrisSU posted:

Mike, I was using Simon's LW radio test, which showed the 300 as being noisy, both its external wall-wart PSU, and the switch itself. The 2960 I use at the other end was absolutely silent using this test.

Thanks for the expl Chris,  I'm not completely convinced by that test; does a component pushing out some form of RF mean it is affecting audio system SQ ??  I'm not arguing that it does or doesn't,  but I would like to equate - somehow - with something like this test to a measurable affect on sound - hiss hum TuneDem  ....  ??    

I've run an LW & AM radio test with my Cisco SG110D only a few weeks ago when I was able to borrow a small enough LW,MW.SW radio to get behind my cabinet.  I didn't post anything on it as I did not find it convincing one way or other.  The original Cisco PSU had some noise, but the switch was at a lower level.  However the PSU I've always used with it is the iFi iPower & that has little or no noise per the LW & AM test, ditto the switch.  Bottom line is I cannot detect any difference in system SQ between either PSU - however I could (subtly) when I had a Netgear switch.   Plus I ran a switch swap test with a few friends a while back & that was far from conclusive.  

Reading other forums,  Linn & others appear to poo poo any notion that switches make a difference & then Lejonklou say its a specific Netgear or nothing  ---- now Naim say only a Cisco Catalyst is worthy ??

I remain, Yours Faithfully, Confuzed in Oxfurdshy'r  

Filipe posted:

Bunny Colvin posted:

 but it is harder to come by 2960s that aren't the 24 or 48 port versions.

I bought mine from UsedCisco in Germany for 50€ plus  carriage in Europe at 10€. Very pleased as it was refurbished and tested. No bidding needed.????I suspect that Peder and his Scandinavian group buy from them.????

Phil

Hello Phil ????.

No,not from them.We take our Cisco 2960's from a Company in Holland. They (Cisco's), are tested in a 26-step testprogram.....some Cisco's failed in this testprogram,as I talked about in another thread here. Refurbished an all other thing's of course.

Lifetime warranty,if you in some way have problems with your Cisco,they send you a new one directly,before you have send yours to them.

They only do,business to business, so you must have a VAT-nr if you will buy from them. It's because of that we helped our forum-members to buy Cisco's. This company is very good to do business with,but I think I can't write their name here.....forum-rules ????.

/Peder ???? 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Peder posted:

Simon

◾ Have you the same SQ from the 3560 or maybe better than the 2960?

◾ Is it,like the 2960 "plug and play" or must you do some more advanced installations.

◾ Can you give us the exact modelnumber for the 3560 you have

 

1. Can’t tell any difference between the 2960 and 3560. They are both Catalyst switches if that is relevant.

2. Yes from factory default, the switch will function like an un managed switch and be a plug and play standard layer 2 switch.

3. Cisco WS-C3560-8PC (PowerPC405) processor (revision A0) with 131072K bytes of memory.

Cheers

Simon

THANK YOU SIMON ,we are lucky to have you here, so we "dummies" can solve our network-problems ????????????.

Cheers to you too....

/Peder ???? 

rjfk posted:

Hi Peder,

I did a lot of testing on this a year or two ago. I used three models of switch, all Cisco Catalyst’s. The WS-C2960L-8PS-LL, the WS-C3560-8PC-S (v01) and what I'm currently using a WS-C3560CX-12PC-S.

 

 

 

 Hope this helps,

Russ

Hello Russ ????

I made your answer/writing to me, a little shorter here,just so I also can say THANK YOU to you......it helps ????????????.

/Peder ???? 

rjfk posted:

Hi Peder,

I did a lot of testing on this a year or two ago. I used three models of switch, all Cisco Catalyst’s. The WS-C2960L-8PS-LL, the WS-C3560-8PC-S (v01) and what I'm currently using a WS-C3560CX-12PC-S.

I tested with power-over-ethernet on and off on the switch, with various different software versions and with various configs loaded on the switch. The software versions were all within the 15 major release train including IP Base and IP Services variants. I did not regression test with very old images and this could be where the difference you are hearing is coming from.

I could hear no difference between switches and configurations but could hear a similar difference between and three models and the previous NetGear switch.

S-in-S posted around the time that he had a theory it was due to the circuitry in the Catalyst switches and how they ensured accurate timing of packet delivery. My testing would appear to confirm that. I wouldn't worry too much about the specific varient of Catalsyt switch, except for keeping to the compact versions which don't have a fan.

So any Catalyst switch, unless you know better keep it simple and don’t bother with any config, but if you do config it that does not appear to impact audio quality. For simplicity’s sake I would avoid multiple VLANs in a domestic environment if you are tempted but that route. Needless complexity.

I didn’t test VLANs in my testing for the above reason and if you do need PoE I’d configure it as far away as possible from the streaming ports. So in my scenario I have NAS and audio kit on the lower numbered ports and the wireless access point which draws PoE on the highest numbered port. The Ethernet cables are routed separately just to ensure no noise contamination between cables.

 Hope this helps,

Russ

if i understand well, you heard no differences in sound quality between 2960 and 3560 models?  thanks for clarify me rjfk.

Mike-B posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Mike, I was using Simon's LW radio test, which showed the 300 as being noisy, both its external wall-wart PSU, and the switch itself. The 2960 I use at the other end was absolutely silent using this test.

Thanks for the expl Chris,  I'm not completely convinced by that test; does a component pushing out some form of RF mean it is affecting audio system SQ ??  I'm not arguing that it does or doesn't,  but I would like to equate - somehow - with something like this test to a measurable affect on sound - hiss hum TuneDem  ....  ??    

I've run an LW & AM radio test with my Cisco SG110D only a few weeks ago when I was able to borrow a small enough LW,MW.SW radio to get behind my cabinet.  I didn't post anything on it as I did not find it convincing one way or other.  The original Cisco PSU had some noise, but the switch was at a lower level.  However the PSU I've always used with it is the iFi iPower & that has little or no noise per the LW & AM test, ditto the switch.  Bottom line is I cannot detect any difference in system SQ between either PSU - however I could (subtly) when I had a Netgear switch.   Plus I ran a switch swap test with a few friends a while back & that was far from conclusive.  

Reading other forums,  Linn & others appear to poo poo any notion that switches make a difference & then Lejonklou say its a specific Netgear or nothing  ---- now Naim say only a Cisco Catalyst is worthy ??

I remain, Yours Faithfully, Confuzed in Oxfurdshy'r  

Hi Mike, I posted my findings on this, but intentionally declined to mention anything about sound quality consequences. Call me a coward, but I'm reluctant to post any such findings based on subtle/marginal/imaginary differences! The spectacular, night and day improvements some have posted here from small changes in network equipment are outside of my experience.

I've been using the LW radio to locate noisy items recently, and in addition to my findings regarding Cisco switches, I tried it on a Netgear GS105. Even when powered by an iFi iPower, both the switch and the PSU were noisy. So was a 5v iPower I've been using to power a media converter. I also found quite a few lightbulbs that were very noisy, mostly compact fluorescents, but also a few LEDs. I didn't like the CFLs anyway, so was happy to replace them. Could changing out a dozen or so lightbulbs improve sound quality? I don't know. (Although I do know that my dealer turns off a row of downlighters in his showroom when he uses the dem room next door!)

Part of the problem for me is that I've changed so many things in my system and listening room over the last year, that I just don't think I can reliably identify improvements from any of these small changes. Now that my refurb is almost complete, I might try reversing a few of the changes I've made. Then if  I can hear any definite sound quality changes, I will stand up and be counted!!  

Mike-B posted:

 

Reading other forums,  Linn & others appear to poo poo any notion that switches make a difference & then Lejonklou say its a specific Netgear or nothing  ---- now Naim say only a Cisco Catalyst is worthy ??

I remain, Yours Faithfully, Confuzed in Oxfurdshy'r  

◾ Linn have moved from a Top-spec company with "Attention To Detail",to a "Good enough" company.The Dealer do a fast installation with "Space Optimization"......that's that. The sound is clean and clear,but......the rest❓ Linn don't care about racks,switches,ehternet-cables and so on, take no attention for "Attention To Detail" anymore 

Here in Sweden,....as from Linn, they don't care about switches and eht-cables.I have contact with most of the Linn-dealers in Sweden,they hear that Cisco 2960 is better in SQ against the switch that they have. But that's that....nothing more happens...I feel sorry for there costumer.

◾ Lejonklou,and the Swedish Linn-forum Selleri,they must open their eyes.They still recommend Netgear GS108 T.....crazy. Many members there,are also member in our forum,....AND, have Cisco 2960 ????????????????.

Before the Cisco we have another switch, that was better than "the famous" ???? Netgear GS108T. But Lejonklou and Selleri goes on with Netgear GS108T ????????.

And yes,I have write ALOT about Cisco 2960 on both Selleri and Lejonklout. Four or five has official, say that they have buy'd one cisco.

So, Mike-B,you don't have to be confuzed anymore,buy a Cisco WS-C2960-8TC-L.

Thanks Simon and others, I'll keep an eye out for a 2960 or 3560! I'm in New Zealand and of course the marketplace is much smaller here but having said that the Cisco switches do seem quite common, just not so much so for the smaller versions. 

Hi Chris, i am glad you are finding the LW test useful... it is only relevant if you subscribe to the idea or hear that unwanted RF voltages (RFI) affect resolving audio equipment through loose coupling... as you are probably aware there is direct correlation between voltage, current and near field radio emissions, which is why the test is recommended as a good guide test by the RSGB for identifying electricaly noisy devices, such as poorly filtered and designed electronic devices, SMPS, LED lights, solar panel inverters, flat screen TVs etc etc. What is interesting is the range of really well behaved devices and atrocious devices, so to me it’s all a bit of a lottery... unfortinately there is no consumer marking for this apart from a very crude and for these purposes largely irrelevant EMC compliance marking. I do know a few years back the EU was trying to dumb down or loosen the requirements here which affected some in the UK wanting to tighten this area... I was involved in a pressure group pushing for the latter.

I do understand there is going to be some discussion and narrative elsewhere from this forum on the possibilities and hopeful analysis of why different network switches do affect SQ of some connected digital Hi-Fi equipment... we should keep an eye out ... it should be interesting..

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I do understand there is going to be some discussion and narrative elsewhere from this forum on the possibilities and hopeful analysis of why different network switches do affect SQ of some connected digital Hi-Fi equipment... we should keep an eye out ... it should be interesting..

Very interesting. I look forward to having a read.

Chris (SU), I'm obliged to you for taking the time to post your thoughts: I too am somewhat hesitant about posting my conclusions particularly on the subtle/marginal/imaginary differences we have around switch & other network SQ changes. I'm no coward but I've seen the bruising from both this forum & others in an entirely different field.

Re the LW radio test, I said in my previous post I was not convinced, the test tells me the various items that emit noise & I have no problems at all with that. Most of my house is LED, a few rarely used halogens & the kitchen is compact florescent but not CFL as such, the 10 lamps are powered from a central regulated control dimmer unit. Many/most of my LED's are on dimmers & they change the LW test noise levels much as I expected, that said I was surprised with the low level of LW noise from my LED's & the very low/no noise from the dimmer switches.

My SMPS's associated with the audio is powered via a UPS & this has an internal isolation transformer & C&D mode filter that isolates it to some extent (to/from) main power. Additionally all my SMPS's are heavily loaded with ferrite on the DC side & the ferrite I use is a specific mix for lowest frequency & is as close as is possible to the frequency that SMPS's operate at, so the noise that is present in the DC side is suppressed to some extent on the Cisco switch (& NAS)

What I can't equate is an audible affect on sound. I ran a test a while back when I had all my 'noisy' stuff turned on while I listened in turn to FM radio, web radio, web & NAS streaming. While I was listening I had someone turn off the 'noisy' circuits at the RCB; nothing changed, or at least did not change that I was convinced about, hence why I am not convinced.

------------------

Peder, Hej, I don't agree with your opinion on Linn; To me they've changed their marketing & product premise to reflect evolving market & lifestyles. Dare I suggest Naim have/are doing the same.     I don't agree they don't care about racks, switches & ethernet cables, maybe its because they don't believe they make a difference or at least make a difference worth getting involved with.      I have to say I am impressed with LinnDocs, so much better & user friendly than is the Naim Knowledge offering.  

I do agree your opinion on Lejonklou, & to a lesser extent Selleri. I have a look in them once in a while & note they don't give up on the GS108T.   But both still have some interesting reading.  

I will not by a Cisco 2960 simply because I do not have the space to install it & am not prepared to make any such changes to my system as I am planning a house move & that will include radical changes in the audio system & it will possibly mean I will not require a switch for the audio system.

to take a punt : this? Cisco-ws-c2960-24lt-l - Catalyst 2960 24 10/100 (8 Poe) + 2 1000bt LAN base IMA  (cheaper)

or that? Cisco-ws-c2960-8tc-l - Catalyst 2960 8 10/100 + 1 T/SFP LAN BASE

Hi MIKE-B ????

You write,.....◾ Peder, Hej, I don't agree with your opinion on Linn; To me they've changed their marketing & product premise to reflect evolving market & lifestyles.◾ 

I respect that,I shall answer/tell you more about this,....and what I mean later.It take time too explane in english ????????.

/Peder ???? 

Antonio1 posted:

to take a punt : this? Cisco-ws-c2960-24lt-l - Catalyst 2960 24 10/100 (8 Poe) + 2 1000bt LAN base IMA  (cheaper)

or that? Cisco-ws-c2960-8tc-l - Catalyst 2960 8 10/100 + 1 T/SFP LAN BASE

The 24 port versions are big, and they are fan cooled, so may be noisy.

ok thanks

So if I buy a used 2960, other than price and number of ports, is there anything else to take into account?

Just make sure that it has been reset to factory settings, then you just plug it in and play.....if it still got previous customer managed settings it could get difficult if my memory of what Simon gave instructions on how to overcome.

BRYCE CURDY,if it's possible...try to get as new as possible. They are between 2007-2013,often run 24/7 hours in a smaller companys computer room.

Think recapp ????,than you know what I'm thinking about. I think It's only the power-supply card who maybe sometime need a recapp.....but as new as possible is better.

◾ Here in Sweden we have a very,very good constructor-guy in our forum-group,he had started to make a big Linear power-supply to this Cisco 2960. Just because he can ????,but it shall be interesting to see if we can hear any differens in SQ......I will report back about that.

Again,hope you understand my swedenglish ????????.

/Peder ????