Cisco switch

No,I shall not buy this,at least not now.First I hope to have some more answers, on my question,about the difference between Cisco 2520 vs Cisco 2960 .

And, it's a very BIG price difference between a preloved Cisco 2520 vs Cisco 2960,.....why❓ 

But,I also look forward to testing the big linear power supply, for the Cisco 2960 that a friend shall/are going to build.....it shall be VERY interesting ????. He's on a very,very high level on building electronic things like dac,power-amps ect.

/Peder ???? 

Very simple, the 2960 is obsolete, the IT departments would not use it because it only supports up to 100 mbps, so they flush the market with it.

Frank Yang posted:

Very simple, the 2960 is obsolete, the IT departments would not use it because it only supports up to 100 mbps, so they flush the market with it.

There are 2960 series switches at both 100Base-t and 1000Base-t, not all 2960s are limited to 100Mbps.

Mike-B posted:

Peder, I am very familiar with the Linn 'method'   All that is a personal/physical reaction to whatever you hear, ????therefore it is subjective.????   

◾ Mike-B,here you are wrong,the Tune Method is NOT subjective❗

????Sound character is something very subjective, but whether the music is in tune or not is not subjective. What few people know is that sound systems perform very different in terms of how well they reproduce the
music in tune. And a system that is in tune can strongly communicate the emotional content of the music, give the listener a much more intense experience and will not cause listening fatigue.???? 

-------------------------------------------------------

???? On this forum, we evaluate the quality of music reproduction with a comparative listening method called the Tune Method. The advantage of everyone using the same method is that it allows us to collect and share information that is valid to everyone. A recommended "Best Buy!" from a forum member is much more than a purely subjective opinion on sound - it is a highly valued tip of where to find equipment capable of involving the listener in the music being played.

If you do not agree with the validity of the Tune Method OR regard a different method of evalutation as more important or valid, this forum is not for you.

If you would like to know more about the Tune Method, look here: ???? this I have take away,Peder.???? 

When using the Tune Method, certain patterns and rules will become evident. Please check that you agree with the following statements:
To maximise the quality of music reproduction, the order of importance is (from most to least): The performance of the artist, the recording, the record/CD/file, the source component that replays the record/CD/file, the preamplifier, the power amplifier and the loudspeaker (least important).
When building a turntable from parts, there is a strict hierarchy to observe. Most important is the turntable mechanics, then follows the motor controller, the arm and the cartridge (least important).
With the exception of a few companies, there is generally no correlation between the price and performance of hifi, home cinema and car stereo equipment. With performance I refer to the ability to accurately reproduce a tune or melody.
The last statement is a very important one: For those on a limited budget, there are some real bargains to be found when methodically testing the mass market cheap stuff with the Tune Method. Please share such findings with other members here on the HiFi forum!???? 
---------------------------------------------------------

???? THE TUNE METHOD???? 

It’s important to know that there are many opinions about what is “good” or “correct” when it comes to sound and music reproduction. I personally use the Tune Method and rate it as the single most important method for evaluating the quality of music and speech reproduction. Not only is it a very simple and accurate method, it’s also a common reference for me and my customers: If you are using this method you can be certain that the products and services that I offer make your system sound better. The method is best learnt by personal demonstration, but some people seem to get the hang of it just by following the instructions below. 
 
 
The Tune Method 
 
The Tune Method is a method for comparing two things against each other and determine which of the two performs best in musical terms. It can be two pieces of electronic equipment, two speaker positions in a room, two mains leads or any other part of a sound reproducing system or listening environment. When doing comparisons, you should never change more than one parameter at a time. If you do, it will be very difficult to draw any conclusions from the outcome of your comparison. 
 
There is not much to discuss regarding the result, it's just a matter of Better or Worse. There may of course be other aspects of the sound that can be debated, but the outcome of a properly executed Tune Method comparison is always as simple as “this is more in tune than that”. 
 
The idea is that by focusing on your understanding of the music - or more specifically the melody or tune of the song - you are not distracted by details, the general sound character or other more subjective perceptions of the sound. The result of using the Tune Method can therefore be regarded as a short cut to what your opinion would be if you had listened to the two alternatives for a very long time. This is because your ears gradually get used to a certain sound, but what really determines how much you will enjoy your system is how easy it is for your brain to understand and appreciate the music being played. 
 
Sound character is something very subjective, but whether the music is in tune or not is not subjective. What few people know is that sound systems perform very different in terms of how well they reproduce the
music in tune. And a system that is in tune can strongly communicate the emotional content of the music, give the listener a much more intense experience and will not cause listening fatigue. 
 
 
How to do it 
 
The method is not unlike the way some musicians tune their instruments. Imagine a skilled guitar player tuning his guitar by plucking three strings in succession: E, A, D.  He repeats the tones in his head to get an internal "reference" and focuses his hearing: E, A, D. He then changes the tension of the D string very slightly and plucks them again: E, A, D. Was that more in tune? Yes, that is more like it! If he isn't quite sure, he goes back to the first setting and compares it with the second. While the actual tuning of the instrument requires skill and experience, the difference between when the strings are in tune or not can be heard by almost anyone. The Tune Method therefore requires no “golden ear”! It is easily learned by anyone who can manage to focus on the music rather than the sound of the system. 
 
In the version of this method adapted to hifi comparisons, you make comparisons using an A-A-B method while actively following or singing along with the tune of the song: 
 
* Play on component A while following or singing along to the main tune of the music. Play  no more than about 10 to 20 seconds, because this amount of music is easiest to remember correctly.  * Repeat the 10-20 seconds on component A (because it is usually is a little easier to follow the tune the second time you hear it).  * Now play the 10-20 seconds on component B. 
 
Was it, with B, easier to follow or sing along with the tune or was it more difficult?  Did you feel that the melody was more "in tune" with B than with A?  Could you feel how other instruments (drums or percussion for example) were helping you to follow the tune (then B is better!) or were they slightly distracting or playing on their own? (Then A is better).  If you were feeling "yeah, that's how it goes!" the last time, then B is better. If you became puzzled and no longer really sure how the tune goes, it might indicate that A is better but you will perhaps have to do it again. 

 The better a system is at reproducing music and speech, the less your brain has to work to understand the message. The result is more enjoyment and lower stress levels. Therefore, a system that performs well in Tune Method terms is a system that is immediately enjoyable, that will broaden your taste in music (or movies) and will be used very often. 
 
For the Tune Method comparison, you can use almost any type of music, with any type of instruments. It is, however, preferable if the song starts more or less immediately with a clearly distinguishable melody. Use each song for no more than a couple of comparisons, after that it will usually be easier with a new song. 
 
It can often be easier to compare with songs that you have never heard before, otherwise you will already have the tune inside your head and that does not make the comparison any easier. Beware of old favourites! It is also strongly recommended to stay away from audiophile recordings and records that are supposed to sound sweet and nice. Music that is noisy and/or has been recorded with low quality can often be much easier to compare with. This is because your focus then shifts from the nice sound to what the musicians are trying to communicate. 
 
Also, do stay on roughly the same spot in the room while you're listening. Which spot is irrelevant as long as it is the same on all three occasions (A, A and B). Many people find it easiest to use the Tune Method while standing outside the room that the music is being played in. This might appear strange, but when listening from another room, the fine details of the sound are less distracting and the focus is therefore shifted towards the fundamental qualities of the music. 
 
 
Relaxed and focused 
 
Whenever you start feeling tired, stop and do something else for a while. It's essential to feel relaxed and at ease when doing these comparisons. If you are not, you won't be able to focus on the music, which will tend to make you judge more by "feeling" – a method that also works sometimes, but not as reliably. Since you need to be relaxed and focused, the Tune Method is much more difficult to perform in so called blind tests. Any situation where you feel that someone is judging your performance will increase your stress levels and diminish your ability to focus on the music. 
 
Please note, however, that blind tests can be arranged in a way that gives you full control over the music, the volume and the switching between A and B. When this is the case, the Tune Method works great and I regularly use such blind tests when developing new products. 
 
With some practice, the Tune Method is very easy to use and the results are consistent and repeatable. It is also interesting to note that people who often disagree about sound quality almost always come to the same conclusions when they start using this method. 
 
 
Common questions 
 
The most common question I have received when demonstrating the Tune Method is this: Isn’t it easier to follow the tune on a system which delivers less information? In other words; do systems that lack detail perform better when performing Tune Method comparisons? 
 
The answer is no. It can easily be demonstrated that reducing the amount of information from a well performing system results in the tune being more difficult to follow. One of the simplest things is to remove a low frequency speaker, such as a properly installed subwoofer, from the system. This makes the system perform worse and the tune becomes more difficult to follow. The same thing happens when removing a very high frequency driver. It can also be shown that it is far easier to follow the tune while listening to the live performance of an artist than it is when listening to a recording of the same performance. Our hearing is made to perceive and analyse natural sounds. The less distorted the sounds are, the easier it is for our brains to interpret the information. And the more the system is in tune the more musical experience you have,enjoy.

-----------------------------------------------------

/Peder ???? 
 

Peder posted:

Mike-B posted:

Peder, I am very familiar with the Linn 'method'   All that is a personal/physical reaction to whatever you hear, ????therefore it is subjective.????   

◾ Mike-B,here you are wrong,the Tune Method is NOT subjective❗

????Sound character is something very subjective, but whether the music is in tune or not is not subjective. What few people know is that sound systems perform very different in terms of how well they reproduce the
music in tune. And a system that is in tune can strongly communicate the emotional content of the music, give the listener a much more intense experience and will not cause listening fatigue.???? 

-------------------------------------------------------

???? On this forum, we evaluate the quality of music reproduction with a comparative listening method called the Tune Method. The advantage of everyone using the same method is that it allows us to collect and share information that is valid to everyone. A recommended "Best Buy!" from a forum member is much more than a purely subjective opinion on sound - it is a highly valued tip of where to find equipment capable of involving the listener in the music being played.

If you do not agree with the validity of the Tune Method OR regard a different method of evalutation as more important or valid, this forum is not for you.

If you would like to know more about the Tune Method, look here: ???? this I have take away,Peder.???? 

When using the Tune Method, certain patterns and rules will become evident. Please check that you agree with the following statements:
To maximise the quality of music reproduction, the order of importance is (from most to least): The performance of the artist, the recording, the record/CD/file, the source component that replays the record/CD/file, the preamplifier, the power amplifier and the loudspeaker (least important).
When building a turntable from parts, there is a strict hierarchy to observe. Most important is the turntable mechanics, then follows the motor controller, the arm and the cartridge (least important).
With the exception of a few companies, there is generally no correlation between the price and performance of hifi, home cinema and car stereo equipment. With performance I refer to the ability to accurately reproduce a tune or melody.
The last statement is a very important one: For those on a limited budget, there are some real bargains to be found when methodically testing the mass market cheap stuff with the Tune Method. Please share such findings with other members here on the HiFi forum!???? 
---------------------------------------------------------

/Peder ???? 
 

Firstly I strongly disagree with
"To maximise the quality of music reproduction, the order of importance is (from most to least): The performance of the artist, the recording, the record/CD/file, the source component that replays the record/CD/file, the preamplifier, the power amplifier and the loudspeaker (least important)."
I agree with the "The performance of the artist, the recording,"
The rest is technical stuff and any one of those can cause defects in sound reproduction that can dominate the sound.  You also missed
Vibration control (racks, speaker stands, building construction)
Acoustic environment (room shape, speaker position, furnishings, room construction)
The Listener.

Secondly what is the "Tune method"?
My understanding of being "in tune" from the perspective of music is that the fundamental frequency of all instruments are playing at (or very close to) certain predefined frequencies (particularly relative to each other).  From a technical perspective, this means no significant degree of wow or flutter.  In the case of streamers, the frequency variance caused by the streamer is below 200ppm (that's the frequency tolerance of a cheap 'general purpose' quality quarts crystal oscillator - actually that is absolute error, the stability is much better).  In the case of amplifiers, and speakers, there may be phase shifts but there won't be frequency sifts!

Peder,  I really don't need to be informed about Tune Dem, but thanks for taking the trouble anyway.    I said in the previous post I am very familiar with it,  and by very familiar I mean VERY familiar.    And as in any form of human perception,  it is and cannot be anything else other than subjective.

It sounds as though if you enjoy singing along to Kylie for ten seconds with option B, more than for ten seconds with option A, then option B is deemed better. And that’s that. How anyone can possibly suggest that’s not subjective is beyond me. 

I also forgot to point out that the last part of the Linn description "Tune Method" flatly contradicts the first part!

and that the part...

"Ask yourself a few simple questions:

• Can you hear all the musicians playing all of the instruments all of the time?
• Can you always follow the tune played by every instrument?

"

is one part of how audio engineers have subjectively 'voiced' equipment since time in memoriam!
(Getting the 'Tune' right is the easy bit, even MP3 can do that!)

Hi Peder, that is the correct 2520, but although I believe it will be plug and play as a basic default layer 2 switch, with PTP enabled at layer 2...I wouldn’t recommend it over a used 2960 unless you know how to log onto the switch and configure/interrogate it. I have not done this yet at home so couldn’t advise if something went wrong. I certainly wouldn’t pay much more for a 2520 as it may have the same performance of a regular 2960... if I had one it’s an area I would experiment with... 

My experience changing from a Netgear GS105 to a Cisco 2960 8TC-L is that a slight veil has been lifted from the sound.

It's not night and day, it's not even a foggy day to a clear day, more like the difference between a slightly hazy summer's day and a summer's day shortly after rain.

Frank Yang posted:

Very simple, the 2960 is obsolete, the IT departments would not use it because it only supports up to 100 mbps, so they flush the market with it.

Frank you might want to research a little more... the old Fast Ethernet 2960 model switches are end of sale which is why they are available used at bargain prices on popular auction sites.. and are ideal for our audio and general home network uses.

The current 2960 models are the S, X and XR series and support 1000BaseT and other advancements (which won’t be relevant for the typical home network) .. but do expect to pay regular price for these... and yes we do use them for clients.

Huge posted:

....more like the difference between a slightly hazy summer's day and a summer's day shortly after rain.

Huge, for me those are huge differences.. I love that warm fresh feel after summer rain shower... as opposed to those slightly headache inducing still hot hazy days... I am not sure the switches are quite that ddifferent in the sound produced... but perhaps it’s just me 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Huge posted:

....more like the difference between a slightly hazy summer's day and a summer's day shortly after rain.

Huge, for me those are huge differences.. I love that warm fresh feel after summer rain shower... as opposed to those slightly headache inducing still hot hazy days... I am not sure the switches are quite that ddifferent in the sound produced... but perhaps it’s just me 

Touché! 

Peder, 

“????Sound character is something very subjective, but whether the music is in tune or not is not subjective. What few people know is that sound systems perform very different in terms of how well they reproduce the
music in tune. And a system that is in tune can strongly communicate the emotional content of the music, give the listener a much more intense experience and will not cause listening fatigue.???? ”

I read recently that  AES have published some  interesting evaluation studies and the results showed that the conveying of emotional content of music and specifically instrumentation, sound and phrasing was not that dependent on the quality of the audio replay.... our cognitive association with sounds, pitch and phrasing mattered more... so the intensity of the experience will vary subjectively  with the listener and not neccessarily with the replay system. However clearly artefacts in the replay system that become distracting to the listener will affect the replay experience..

Mike-B posted:

Peder,  I really don't need to be informed about Tune Dem, but thanks for taking the trouble anyway.    I said in a previous post I am very familiar with it,  and by very familiar I mean VERY familiar.    And as in any form of human perception,  ???? it is and cannot be anything else other than subjective.???? 

Mike-B ????,if you are VERY familiar you should know that it is not Subjective.....read what I put in again ????.

The writings that I put in is from Lejonklou's forum,they also use this method all over the world.But the biggest Naim and Linn-dealers here in Sweden,they have learn me this method from 1983 to this date. I know not everyone agree in this,but that's okey.....all I can say is,that this method works if you do it in the right way.....take it or not ????.

And we are really good to get the music-systems to sing with this method,and the method comes from Linn and Naim.But as I write earlier,many have problem with how to use AND understand the Tune Method.

◾ A story,a friend of my,who is very good to system-installations with the Tune Method.He has visit 100 people/homes around here in Sweden,.....all high end Naim,Linn-people who think their system sounds good.

But he say to me that only around 5-10% of the systems sounds good in musicality.After he has helped this guy's, everyone agree and say, that their music-systems sounds much better after he had helped them,......and the method,....Tune Method ????????????????.

Be Openminded and try,you have nothing to loose ????????????.

/Peder ???? 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi Peder, that is the correct 2520, but although I believe it will be plug and play as a basic default layer 2 switch, with PTP enabled at layer 2...I wouldn’t recommend it over a used 2960 unless you know how to log onto the switch and configure/interrogate it. I have not done this yet at home so couldn’t advise if something went wrong. I certainly wouldn’t pay much more for a 2520 as it may have the same performance of a regular 2960... if I had one it’s an area I would experiment with... 

Thank's Simon ????,I shall talk with "my" company in Holland that we buy our Cisco's from......I talk to them yesterday.They have no 2520 for the moment,but if the can get one, than maybe I can arrange so they can send it to you.Than you can experiment with it and learn us others how to do ????????????????.

Obs,I say maybe.....must talk first to my account manager.....we have been friends so I don't think this is a problem.

/Peder ???? 

Peder,  I really see no point in discussing this.   As I said in previous post;  any form of human perception,  it is and cannot be anything else other than subjective.   As for you inviting me to be invited to be open minded ----- that begs the response that its you that needs to do that.     Meanwhile I am going out for the day - over & out.  

naim out of cot again

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Frank Yang posted:

Very simple, the 2960 is obsolete, the IT departments would not use it because it only supports up to 100 mbps, so they flush the market with it.

Frank you might want to research a little more... the old Fast Ethernet 2960 model switches are end of sale which is why they are available used at bargain prices on popular auction sites.. and are ideal for our audio and general home network uses.

The current 2960 models are the S, X and XR series and support 1000BaseT and other advancements (which won’t be relevant for the typical home network) .. but do expect to pay regular price for these... and yes we do use them for clients.

Apologies for not being clear, my comment implicitly assumed that he meant the following model:

I use a Cisco WS-C2960G-8TC-L and mine operates fine at 1000BaseT.

Peder I think your being very rude to Mike.

Tune dem is subjective what sounds better to one person may sound worse to another.

Otherwise we'd all agree which system sounds best.

Mike-B posted:

Peder,  I really see no point in discussing this.   As I said in previous post;  any form of human perception,  it is and cannot be anything else other than subjective.   As for you inviting me to be invited to be open minded ----- that begs the response that its you that needs to do that.     Meanwhile I am going out for the day - over & out.  

???????? No problem Mike-B,as I have say earlier,I follow some lead word, "Attention To Detail", "Be Openminded" and "Don't Limit Yourself"......the last one I have stolen from the great Live Performance Artist Tina Tuner,who say's "I Don't Limit Myself".

Tina's musical about her life "TINA;The Musical" goes in London now,anybody here who have seen it❓ 

-------------------------------------------------------------

◾Mike-B write,....: Peder, I really see no point in discussing this.◾ 

I think in another way ????,this method has been used by Linn and Naim for,....I don't know. I came in contact with it 1983,...forget if you called it subjective or not,the method WORKS extremely well if you know how to use it.

◾An example,when you "tunning" speakers with this Tune Method,....in the end when you are almost finished,you hear differences in the music-presentation when you just move the speakers 1 to 2mm.

???? AND, this is interesting,if you don't use this old working Tunedem, or as we called it here Tune Method,.....WHAT, are you then using when you do a systeminstallation....❓❓  

This is very,very interesting,so interesting so I think I shall start a new thread about it..❗ 

  Here in Sweden EVERY dealer use the Tune Method,and the earlier distributor from 1980 to the end of 1995 Mr Göran Rudling (worked near Mr Ivor Tiefenbrun) who make Linn and Naim big in Sweden, was a big ambassador for this method,.......who came from Linn/Naim.

/Peder ???? 

Huge posted:

I use a Cisco WS-C2960G-8TC-L and mine operates fine at 1000BaseT.

Yes, this one is good and I would also recommend it, but it is more than 3 times the price of the one without the 'G' in the used market,

Frank Yang posted:

Huge posted:

I use a Cisco WS-C2960G-8TC-L and mine operates fine at 1000BaseT.

Yes, this one is good and I would also recommend it, but it is more than 3 times the price of the one without the 'G' in the used market,

But 1/3 the price of an Audioquest Vodka Ethernet cable (and a tiny fraction of the cost of AQ Diamond or the Chords [other than C-Stream]).

Frank Yang posted:

Huge posted:

I use a Cisco WS-C2960G-8TC-L and mine operates fine at 1000BaseT.

Yes, this one is good and I would also recommend it, but it is more than 3 times the price of the one without the 'G' in the used market,

But have you really compared it to the Cisco WS-C2960-8TC-L,Simon's theory is that one thing who do the better SQ,is because it's a 100-switch.

/Peder ????